Is There An Answer?

[Dame Aussie]

I don't think dogs should live in kennels. If I wanted to breed and had to keep them in kennels to do so, I just wouldn't go ahead with it.

I'm curious, Can you define what you mean by "live in kennels".

SSM described her situation which is a very common one for multiple dog households. IMO dogs in this situation do not live in kennels.

Some single dog families have a dog that lives its life locked in a backyard while its humans rarely venture out there, or spend entire days crated, or locked in a bathroom or laundry. But to many this is acceptable.

For many people and this includes Breeders there is a necessity to be able to secure or isolate a dog or multiple dogs at times. A secure kennel run or building is often the most viable solution. I certainly could not imagine not having secure facilities available if they are needed.

A secure kennel run is IMO preferable to leaving an animal locked in a room or crate. Kennel runs/complexes do not need to be ammonia ridden prison cells.

They can be secure but airy, comfortable pleasant places for dogs to spend some time. Have such facilities does not necessarily equate to the animals living in them 24/7.

I was referring to the OP where Steve stated "Minimum pen sizes are tiny and dogs only have to get 20 mins a day out of them - which is also impossible to police."

I would have no issue whatsoever with dogs being in kennels at times. I just don't believe that should be where they are kept the majority of the time.

[The Spotted Devil]

I've always liked the idea of a kind of mentor ship program where breeding dogs are placed as per a normal pet home but the home can have the option of allowing their dog to be used for breeding under the guidance of the breeder who owns the prefix. That way numerous dogs can be bred by the one breeder and with the benefit of the breeders experience and know how without the dogs having to be permanently housed and owners by the one breeder, negating many of the issues with housing tens or hundreds of breeding dogs on the one property.

I realise this is something that many breeders already engage in with co ownership etc but if it were embraced and promoted at an organisational level it might also be used to grow the network of breeders and owners who are happy to work together with those aims and reduce the need to house large numbers of dogs on single properties.

This is done more often than you think. I know of many breeders who have left an option open for an undesexed bitch in a Pet home to come back and have a litter if the new owner wishes. Some even show dogs that live full time in family homes, in my opinion there isn't much difference between a well cared for house dog and a Show dog. At least I believe there shouldn't be. :)

I am curious as to why a pet owner would agree to keep a dog under these conditions - is it very common? On the surface it would appear that it only benefits the breeder - what benefit to the pet owner. Unless they are getting the dog for free and the breeder is picking up all vet expenses etc its hard to understand why anyone would do it?

It would depend on the breeder but they may be repeat puppy buyers, the puppy may be reduced in price, the breeder may take the bitch back when in season or when the owner goes away, the puppy buyer might receive a puppy from a litter and the breeder may well pick up the vet fees for all breeding related expenses including health testing - when the breeder and the puppy buyer have a good relationship it can work out really well for everyone.

[Esky the husky]

Or maybe the puppy buyer wanted to start out showing and breeding and it was a good opportunity to get a quality bitch and a mentour to.go along with it

[Dory the Doted One]

I've always liked the idea of a kind of mentor ship program where breeding dogs are placed as per a normal pet home but the home can have the option of allowing their dog to be used for breeding under the guidance of the breeder who owns the prefix. That way numerous dogs can be bred by the one breeder and with the benefit of the breeders experience and know how without the dogs having to be permanently housed and owners by the one breeder, negating many of the issues with housing tens or hundreds of breeding dogs on the one property.

I realise this is something that many breeders already engage in with co ownership etc but if it were embraced and promoted at an organisational level it might also be used to grow the network of breeders and owners who are happy to work together with those aims and reduce the need to house large numbers of dogs on single properties.

This is done more often than you think. I know of many breeders who have left an option open for an undesexed bitch in a Pet home to come back and have a litter if the new owner wishes. Some even show dogs that live full time in family homes, in my opinion there isn't much difference between a well cared for house dog and a Show dog. At least I believe there shouldn't be. :)

I am curious as to why a pet owner would agree to keep a dog under these conditions - is it very common? On the surface it would appear that it only benefits the breeder - what benefit to the pet owner. Unless they are getting the dog for free and the breeder is picking up all vet expenses etc its hard to understand why anyone would do it?

Or someone with a genuine love for the breed and wants to help contribute in some way.

[ish]

I've always liked the idea of a kind of mentor ship program where breeding dogs are placed as per a normal pet home but the home can have the option of allowing their dog to be used for breeding under the guidance of the breeder who owns the prefix. That way numerous dogs can be bred by the one breeder and with the benefit of the breeders experience and know how without the dogs having to be permanently housed and owners by the one breeder, negating many of the issues with housing tens or hundreds of breeding dogs on the one property.

I realise this is something that many breeders already engage in with co ownership etc but if it were embraced and promoted at an organisational level it might also be used to grow the network of breeders and owners who are happy to work together with those aims and reduce the need to house large numbers of dogs on single properties.

This is done more often than you think. I know of many breeders who have left an option open for an undesexed bitch in a Pet home to come back and have a litter if the new owner wishes. Some even show dogs that live full time in family homes, in my opinion there isn't much difference between a well cared for house dog and a Show dog. At least I believe there shouldn't be. :)

I am curious as to why a pet owner would agree to keep a dog under these conditions - is it very common? On the surface it would appear that it only benefits the breeder - what benefit to the pet owner. Unless they are getting the dog for free and the breeder is picking up all vet expenses etc its hard to understand why anyone would do it?

We had our family dog (Golden Retriever) on breeders terms. At the time, there was a waiting list of years for a puppy through the GR club and it just so happened that we met a breeder who had a 1 year old bitch she was willing to place. Worked out very well for us - we didn't pay anything for her upfront and she went back to have 3 litters with her breeder. The breeder saw her often and showed her occasionally in the beginning too. She advised us on her health and diet to make sure we were doing the right things.

It was especially wonderful for me, because I got to tag along at shows and be present when she gave birth - probably my inspiration for becoming a breeder myself. The breeder is still a good friend now, and emails occasionally about our girl's offspring which is lovely (she passed away a couple of years ago, at almost 16 years old)

[espinay2]

kennelling is a neccessary evil .. and I often think of designs which might make life more interesting ..

Has there been (I guess there has) examples other than wire rectangular pens ..kennels/sheds/grassed quadrangles ...?

A couple of examples of 'non-traditional' kenelling.

Still on the 'cost and arm and a leg' side, but still interesting.

http://www.waltham.c...-husbandry/270/

http://www.flickr.co...N00/4995000618/

I was taught many years ago, that you don't HAVE to have a houseful of dogs to be successful with a breeding program. Primarily because we need to sit back and really think about what that word means to us. What level of success do you want? How can you get it? Why do you want it? (that's the key one with me)

Mary Roslin Williams' book 'Reach for the Stars: Formerly Advanced Labrador Breeding' is a great practical read on the subject of having a successful breeding kennel while restricting numbers (and how lots does not necessarily mean better).

The starting point should be a set of reasonable criteria for keeping & raising dogs. And so long as a breeder can tick off that his/her situation allows for them (& be available for checking by the authorities).... then all is fine.

This!!

SSM described her situation which is a very common one for multiple dog households. IMO dogs in this situation do not live in kennels.

It is very similar to the methods I use here, and as you say I suspect many with multiple dogs use this type of arrangement. With multiple entire dogs of different sexes having the facilities to separate them safely at different times is certianly necessary. Dogs also NEED sunshine to be healthy and reproduce effectively. Myra Savant Harris interestingly writes about the rise of the 'dog room' and how this has actually affected reproduction in a negative way, so keeping dogs in the house ALL the time is also not the answer in many respects. IMO having a setup that is designed to permit clean, healthy, low stress and safe access to the outdoors is just as important as giving a dog access to a 'home' environment.

Whatever setup is employed it needs to be set up in such a way that it minimises stress. Dogs who do not get on or need to be separated for many reasons can sometimes be just as stressed by a 'home' situation which is inadequately designed for separation or 'rotation', as they may be in a kennel setup. There has to be a 'happy (but flexible) medium' somewhere.

[mita]

I've always liked the idea of a kind of mentor ship program where breeding dogs are placed as per a normal pet home but the home can have the option of allowing their dog to be used for breeding under the guidance of the breeder who owns the prefix. That way numerous dogs can be bred by the one breeder and with the benefit of the breeders experience and know how without the dogs having to be permanently housed and owners by the one breeder, negating many of the issues with housing tens or hundreds of breeding dogs on the one property.

I realise this is something that many breeders already engage in with co ownership etc but if it were embraced and promoted at an organisational level it might also be used to grow the network of breeders and owners who are happy to work together with those aims and reduce the need to house large numbers of dogs on single properties.

This is done more often than you think. I know of many breeders who have left an option open for an undesexed bitch in a Pet home to come back and have a litter if the new owner wishes. Some even show dogs that live full time in family homes, in my opinion there isn't much difference between a well cared for house dog and a Show dog. At least I believe there shouldn't be. :)

I am curious as to why a pet owner would agree to keep a dog under these conditions - is it very common? On the surface it would appear that it only benefits the breeder - what benefit to the pet owner. Unless they are getting the dog for free and the breeder is picking up all vet expenses etc its hard to understand why anyone would do it?

Or someone with a genuine love for the breed and wants to help contribute in some way.

A big 'Yes!' to this.

All different options for keeping/breeding & showing dogs should be explored. The essential features should allow for socialisation (of all dogs, not just puppies), a healthy environment, opportunities for stimulation, exercise and training, & comfortable accommodation. And matched to breed.

If these can be ticked off .... the breeder's doing fine.

One option is care in a pet home. And you're right, Dory, some owners would happily do it, not just for love of having a pet, but also because they want to contribute to the development of the breed.

And these various options should be being promoted .... not one model that fits puppy farming being imposed on everyone.

Edited April 9, 2013 by mita