How Much Training Is Too Much Training?

[Staffyluv]

Zig is doing much better than expected at obedience training..

Each morning we go for a walk - we play fetch (his favourite game), then we come back to the town park, so he can have a dunk in the pond - yep, even in this cold weather.

Then we spend about 20 minutes doing heel, drop, sit, stay, left and right turns - all the basic stuff..

By the time we get to our 'training' the park is filling up with morning walkers, joggers and others walking dogs - this is good experience for him as he can still have issues with distraction (but has improved tremendously since we first began our lives together)..

He seems to get excited about this training at the park.

I also take opportunities during the day to get him to heel beside me, when we walk from my office to the kitchen (when I make lunch) and sit and wait at doors until called in etc. Just tidbits of training at different opportunistic times during the day.. He doesn't seem excited about this sort of training at home - he just does it..

When I mentioned this to the obedience trainer, she said I was probably doing too much training...

I suppose we do 20 minutes of a morning and then about 15 - 20 minutes through the day..

Is this too much?

[tlc]

My take on it is if you know your dog well enough ( and it sounds like you do) you will know if it's too much. If he's enjoying it keep it up!

[Diva]

If he is still excited and engaged, it is not too much.

[Mrs Rusty Bucket]

staffyluv

there is at least one study that says that less training is more effective.

https://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&pid=sites&srcid=ZGVmYXVsdGRvbWFpbnxhZ2lsaXR5d2F8Z3g6MjI4OGI2ZjI0MmQ3YzFkYg&pli=1

That thing is in a very hard to read format - I wish someone would slap the scientific paper publishers around with a graphic designer or 10 and some copy writers. There are reasons why magazines and newspapers format their stuff the way they do. It's easier to read and understand.

The summary was that the dogs that got trained on a task weekly - learned faster than the dogs that got trained daily. And remembered better.

But the way I interpret that is that if you do three sessions a day on boring one thing, the dog loses interest and gets bored (so do I). But if you have 2 to 5 minutes sessions and each session is on something different - so that your sessions on a particular thing end up being "weekly" sort of - then your dog will learn faster.

So there are many ways to break down any training task into lots of little things, and also to throw in a fair bit of trick training - ie break down one trick into tiny pieces, have a new trick a week and weekly review of old tricks. It also trains your dog how to learn new things ie teaching your dog and yourself how to deal with small doses of frustration and persist in trying to learn is good.

I'm trying to teach a reliable retrieve, but only working on that - gets both of us frustrated. I think she just stole all the fresh Kleenex out of my pocket - sigh. I should get off the computer and work on some moves.

Each session - should be set up so your dog has the best chance of success, and then - when you're getting 80% success - you can up the challenge.

I got an academic article on frustration in here somewhere too. if you want it.

[megan_]

You want to end it well before he becomes disengaged. Is he still super enthusiastic after a few mins? I find with my guys, less is often more.

[Staffyluv]

That makes sense MRB..

At home, we just do things randomly - no set pattern really. We might do heel, sit, heel, sit all the way into the house one day and another we might do wait and then come when called..

I don't think he is bored with it yet - but I do watch for signs, especially when we are at the park, to finish on a high note.

One thing I am really lucky with is he will train for a tennis ball or even just pats to say he is a good boy.

I bought some of those dog carob treats today to give him, what I thought would be, a higher value reward - and he won't eat them... Totally turned his nose up..

[corvus]

Here's Patricia McConnell's interpretation of the training frequency study: https://www.patriciamcconnell.com/theotherendoftheleash/whats-a-better-learning-performance

I am yet to manage to train Erik in sufficient quantities to have him decide he's had enough. If he's in 100%, he's in until I insist that's really it and I'm not doing any more with him. He has been driving me mad these last few days because he got very little training this week. As a result, he's been expressing his intense boredom with all sorts of obnoxious and annoying behaviour. He is a disaster when he hasn't had enough training. He generally gets at least 20 minutes a day in one block, then smaller sessions of a few minutes here and there. He never seems to get tired of it and I have no concern at all that I could overdo it. Kivi has much less endurance for such activities, but I don't really worry about 'over training' him, either. He'll do it as long as it is reinforcing. He is nowhere near as clever as Erik, but neither dog really gets bored of doing anything. They are doing it for the reinforcement, not because they like the behaviour, particularly. I expect they do like the behaviours, but only because they have strong histories with reinforcement, if that makes sense.

Bob Bailey says dogs do not get bored with training. He says dolphins, yes, dogs, no.

ETA They do get physically tired, though. It takes a while for Erik, and lots of jumping, but Kivi gets physically tired pretty easily. It's not reinforcing to keep getting up and doing something for a piece of kibble if you're tired.

Edited April 6, 2013 by corvus

[aussielover]

If he's not getting excited, perhaps the length of training isn't the issue but the reward and reward frequency and your attitude? Perhaps at the park you're more switched on as you know you have to be on the ball, so you're more likely to reward more frequently and perhaps use better rewards.

I know I find training at home much more difficult than at a club or at the park- I have to make a conscious effort to make training upbeat and fun for my dog and remind myself constantly to reward especially at home. This is due to a combination of me not being a naturally outgoing person and my dog not being a high drive dog.

I tend to find that more active rewards like ball chasing make her more excited, but also have the downside of being physically tiring.

I don't do obedience training anymore but when I train for agility it is no more than 10 mins at a time and usually I try to have a specific exercise in mind eg. contact work, weave entries, serpentines, front crosses etc

20 mins seems like a fair amount of time but if he is enthusiastic then thats great :)

I think my dog competes better when she has had a bit of a break from training before. With some things like weaving (and heeling when we did obedience) I actually found the more I did it, the worse it got! Then once she had a break from it for a while, it would getter better again!

[RubyBlue]

staffyluv

there is at least one study that says that less training is more effective.

https://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&pid=sites&srcid=ZGVmYXVsdGRvbWFpbnxhZ2lsaXR5d2F8Z3g6MjI4OGI2ZjI0MmQ3YzFkYg&pli=1

That thing is in a very hard to read format - I wish someone would slap the scientific paper publishers around with a graphic designer or 10 and some copy writers. There are reasons why magazines and newspapers format their stuff the way they do. It's easier to read and understand.

The summary was that the dogs that got trained on a task weekly - learned faster than the dogs that got trained daily. And remembered better.

But the way I interpret that is that if you do three sessions a day on boring one thing, the dog loses interest and gets bored (so do I). But if you have 2 to 5 minutes sessions and each session is on something different - so that your sessions on a particular thing end up being "weekly" sort of - then your dog will learn faster.

So there are many ways to break down any training task into lots of little things, and also to throw in a fair bit of trick training - ie break down one trick into tiny pieces, have a new trick a week and weekly review of old tricks. It also trains your dog how to learn new things ie teaching your dog and yourself how to deal with small doses of frustration and persist in trying to learn is good.

I'm trying to teach a reliable retrieve, but only working on that - gets both of us frustrated. I think she just stole all the fresh Kleenex out of my pocket - sigh. I should get off the computer and work on some moves.

Each session - should be set up so your dog has the best chance of success, and then - when you're getting 80% success - you can up the challenge.

I got an academic article on frustration in here somewhere too. if you want it.

Would love to read the frustration one too if you don't mind.

[Staffyluv]

I would also like to read the one on frustration if you can locate it please.

Aissielover, 20 minutes is nothing for him. At the behaviourist sessionsit used to go for 2 hours and I couldn't work out why he used to play up all the time.. Then after talking on here about it and so many saying that was way too long, I dropped him back and used to pay for the whole lesson but leave at around the hour mark.

Looking back, even that was too much for him.

Now I find he is much happier and seems to find it easier to focus, if he can blow of some steam before we train (hence the reason for a run at the dog park before we leave and come back to the town park to train).

Most mornings he is keen to keep going, that is why I leave when we do, I want him to want to keep doing it.

The home reward isn't the same as the park reward, I am probably not as enthusiastic as I am at the park, that's a really good point and one I hadn't noticed until it was mentioned. I will work on that.

Time to get some sleep, we have a big morning tomorrow.

Wish us luck, it's his first obedience assessment at 9am.

[Kavik]

My training sessions are 5 mins, maximum, often shorter. I find I can keep both of our attention and attitude up if I keep them short.

[BC Crazy]

Our training sessions are only 5 mins at a time at the max , same Kavik but usually less. Any longer & the moment is gone. I like to finish each session while they are still "keen" & looking for more.

Edited April 6, 2013 by BC Crazy

[Staffyluv]

I am confused over this - there seems to be so many more people that only train for a few minutes at a time.

Zig is still sitting at my side at 15-20 minutes looking at me and seems to want to keep going.

This session is every morning at the park, with loads of distraction (because that has always been our problem, working under distraction).

This morning was awesome but only about 10 minutes long as I didn't want to overwork him, I am hoping he does the same in his assessment in about 45 minutes..

He heeled, normal, slow and fast pace, he sat and waited to recall, he dropped and stayed in drop..

I really want him to do well and now I am worried that doing 20 minutes this morning is going to throw him in his assessment.

[sheena]

I couldn't put a figure on our training times. We really take the opportunity to train with everything we do with the dogs & it is just all incorporated into fun/feed/swim/agility/doors/gates/walk/recall/frisby etc, time. So as long as he is still keen for more, it's an opportunity too good to miss. Just get good at watching for signs of boredom & mix the training up a bit, so you are not doing the same things over & over. If you mix it up & he is having fun, then whats training & whats play?? Our dogs look upon training time as "wow...we are going to do something really exciting". Get the clicker out & think we are on for a game.

[corvus]

I am confused over this - there seems to be so many more people that only train for a few minutes at a time.

Don't try to second-guess yourself. And don't go trying to fix problems you don't have. Erik's frustration levels used to go through the roof if I only trained for 5 minutes. He has been known to chomp me for attempting to leave him 'wanting more'. It took quite a bit of fiddling around to find a training session structure that worked for him. I can train him for a few minutes now, but I'd want to be careful about the context. If I only plan to give him 5 minutes of training I owe it to him to help him wind down from that afterwards. Leaving him hanging is stretching the friendship. And that is after stacks of relaxation protocol and Give Me A Break/ off switch training CU style. I train him now to try to take the edge off his desperate need to learn stuff and engage his SEEKING system, not to leave him wanting more, for heavens sake. I can't keep up with him as it is! Decide what your aim is and tailor your training to achieve those aims.

Hope the assessment went well. :)

[Staffyluv]

The assessment went very well Corvus - he came first in the beginners..

I am so proud of him, he did everything spot on when he was asked..

We even blitzed the left hand turns..

So proud I made a whole thread about it here in training

[BC Crazy]

Sonny,my boy is the same as Erik corvus & gets very frustrated after only short training sessions. He screams, yelps & barks at me out of frustration if he doesn't get it down very quickly.

He then goes through all the tricks he knows, one after the other :laugh: I can't figure him why??? but he does. Where as Stella will train, train & train if I allowed her to without a

glimpse of frustration. With her if it's work, bring it on... she loves it & is totally focused on it & the bait of course :laugh:

Every dog is different. If it is working Staffyluv & it sounds like it is, I wouldn't worry IMHO.

Well done SL I just read about your success. First YA !!!! I wouldn't be changing anything. Great job :)

Edited April 7, 2013 by BC Crazy

[Mrs Rusty Bucket]

I really ought to have another go at reading this, it probably has some good stuff for me, cos we have a lot of "don't wanna don't hafta" and "just gimme the treat NOW" going on in our training. I have discovered some awkward things by accident. eg mince beef reward in teaspoonfuls - will result in evil hound remembering an accidental training session, and running out of the park and across the road to check to see if there is any more mince beef to be had. ARRGGHHHH. But at least I know how high value that stuff is now. She won't eat anything else if that is available. If the ball is available - she won't play with a tug. If food is available, she won't fetch / hold the ball. Tho we are working on picking up stuff in exchange for food.

Before that - I'd try dumb tests like - putting a bunch of different food out to see which she'd take first. What she did was - start at one end of the line of food and just work her way along until it was all gone. No decision or preference required as far as she was concerned - it was all good. But ask her to *work* for a reward and you soon find out which ones she likes best.

Frustration theory

Book by Abram Amsel called "Frustration theory: an analysis of dispositional learning and memory"

http://tinyurl.com/3prxey9

There was a previous topic that I posted the links in.

http://www.dolforums.com.au/topic/228291-love-those-training-epiphanies/

Abram's book - hopefully dol forum post parser won't make it into a link so you can cut and paste it. But that's what the tinyurl is for.

books.google.com.au/books?id=-5YpdzQW6WgC&printsec=frontcover&dq=Abram+Amsel&hl=en&ei=JS2cTv3DKsbdiAK94LyyDQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CDcQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q&f=false