Sable / Blue Merle Matings - Colle And Shelties

[BDJ]

Hi all,

I have not put this in the breed forums as I don't want it to appear a critisism, it is just a question (but if it needs to be moved please let me know :-))

Many years ao (around 30) I showed collies and shelties. At that time a sable merle mating was considered a huge sin. It may have happened behind closed doors (ie : may have had a bitch that was never shown so no one knew its colour), but if there was even a rumour the general chat was 'never use that line because you dont know whe sable merle will pop up).

But I have noticed it a bit lately - matings and pups are advertised with the parents colour proudly noted as a sable to blue merle mating, and have also noticed a pup being advertised as a sable merle.

I checked the standard and still only the three colours noted, so thought it may be that genetic testing now allows more knowledge of what colour the resultant pups can actually be

Does anyone know? I am just curious

Edited April 6, 2013 by BDJ

[Natsu chan]

It is usually obvious when the pups are born if they are sable merles.I have seen a few and I think most people would realise they aren't normal sables fairly easily, even in adults the shading in the sables often doesn't look quite right which is usually a give away. Having said that one dog I knew very well who was a sable merle looked to be a normal sable to the eye. His owner and breeder were well aware of what he was and people who used him were told too. He was a really lovely dog and threw beautiful puppies.

Unfortunantly there seem to be a lot of blues and sables around now but not so many tris. I suspect the restrictions in numbers and the increasing average age of breeders of both breeds is contributing to this. A lot of the older Collie breeders still think it is a mortal sin though. :)

[dancinbcs]

I doubt that many show breeders would do a mating like that without a very good reason but there are plenty of non show breeders in many breeds out to make money by breeding unusual colours. It is happening a lot more with Border Collies than with Collies or Shelties but is still likely to be the reason in them as well.

Merle should never be bred to sable as it can be impossible to see the merle in some of them. Even more of a problem in BCs is breeding merle to red because the merle cannot ever show on a red coat. These matings can lead to accidental double merle matings in the next generation but are being done by people who do not understand the genetics involved and just want to breed odd colours that they can charge an unsuspecting public much more for than the standard colours.

[Kirislin]

I'm not familiar with collie breeding. I've heard that you dont breed merle to merle, I think it's a bit like horses where you dont breed roan to roan, there's some kind of lethal gene isn't there? What is the problem with merle and sable?

[DeltaCharlie]

I think the main issue is that the sable can mask the merle and therefore a genetically merle dog may not actually look like merle. If that dog is unknowingly put back to a merle down the track, you run the risk of double merles.

[BDJ]

thanks for the responses guys

The thing with a sable/merle mating is that the offsping can be a sable merle (which is a colour not recognised by the standard). You can get a dog which is a visual sable, but is actually a sable merle. You then run the risk of having a sable merle offspring down the track when you dont expect it.

Interesting that people now work with that 'risk' on visual info only and it has not been reduced through genetic testing

(the websites I have seen the sable/merle matings on are quite 'big name' who actively show and breed).

Also as a sign of the times is the thought about merle/merle matings. It is now considered unethical (and I think against codes of ethics), yet we did at least half a dozen merle/merle matings, never had a white pup (oreven a mismarked blue), never had an issue - all pups were happy and healthy with no 'defects'. But at the same time any merle/merle matng was surrounded by tri/merle matings and I do know someone else at the time would do multiple generation merle/merle mating and 'bucket'(excuse the old fashioned crass term) the whites so with ethics like that around I dont say I disagree with the new thinking.

Edited April 6, 2013 by BDJ

[dancinbcs]

thanks for the responses guys

The thing with a sable/merle mating is that the offsping can be a sable merle (which is a colour not recognised by the standard). You can get a dog which is a visual sable, but is actually a sable merle. You then run the risk of having a sable merle offspring down the track when you dont expect it.

Interesting that people now work with that 'risk' on visual info only and it has not been reduced through genetic testing

(the websites I have seen the sable/merle matings on are quite 'big name' who actively show and breed).

Also as a sign of the times is the thought about merle/merle matings. It is now considered unethical (and I think against codes of ethics), yet we did at least half a dozen merle/merle matings, never had a white pup (oreven a mismarked blue), never had an issue - all pups were happy and healthy with no 'defects'. But at the same time any merle/merle matng was surrounded by tri/merle matings and I do know someone else at the time would do multiple generation merle/merle mating and 'bucket'(excuse the old fashioned crass term) the whites so with ethics like that around I dont say I disagree with the new thinking.

It doesn't matter what else in on the pedigree, merle to merle can result in defective dogs and this is why these matings are banned in BCs by the ANKC. Merle is dominant so one parent must be merle to get merle puppies. It cannot just pop up in later generations unlike sable which is recessive. A genetic tri cannot however carry sable.

[BDJ]

yes, there must be merle to get merle, which is where sable merles can pop up unexpectedly down the track if you think you have been doing S/S matings and dont realise aSM was introduced 2 or 3 generations ago and in fact you have been doing SM/S matings since

(a dog can be a sable merle, yet it not be visible (dog 'looks' sable). So if you do a S/M mating, you can get a SM which is visally a Sable. If you breed from that thinking you are doing a S/S mating you are acually doing a SM/S mating).

I have only seen two SM (result of an escape artist bitch). One was clearly a sable merle (very pretty but thats another story :D ) and the other looked like a normal shaded sable. It was only when you saw it in bright sunshine that there was a slight anomoly in the coat colour.

[cowanbree]

Talking about my own breed (shelties) I wouldn't say a merle/tri factored sable mating is a no no. For a start the worst thing that can happen is they produce sable merles which are still happy healthy puppies, they just have to be pet homed. It is said that a sable merle mating will improve the tan on your merles and presently with the lack of available tris it is extremely difficult to find a suitable tri so a tri factored sable may be your only option.

Blue/blue matings is however a definitely no no and while I do know of breeders who have done a sable/merle mating I don't know of any that have bred on from a sable merle, they have been pet homes and their correctly coloured littermates retained

[LisaCC]

Can anyone shed some light on why you are still allowed to do Merle/Merle matings with Australian Shepherds but not Collies or Borders? I don't know about other dogs like danes though...

[DeltaCharlie]

Can anyone shed some light on why you are still allowed to do Merle/Merle matings with Australian Shepherds but not Collies or Borders? I don't know about other dogs like danes though...

Nobody should ever be doing a merle/merle mating in Aussie Shepherds! That would be the height of irresponsibility in my eyes. Double merle in Aussies is just as bad as it is in the other working breeds, it can result in deaf and or blind puppies.

Correct me if I am wrong, but pretty sure Merle in Great Danes works differently. I don't believe there are any health issues associated with merle/merle breedings. Like I said, could be wrong though :)

[LisaCC]

Oh Danes definitely have the same problems with double merles. A family friend rescued one a few years ago. Had some hearing but completely blind, with the tiny eyes. Not sure if it's allowed with the ANKC or not though.

I know you are allowed to do m/m Matings with Aussies, and there sure are breeders that do it. Hence my wondering why it's allowed, but not in others :/

Sorry to go OT.

Edited April 6, 2013 by LisaCC

[Dame Aussie]

Oh Danes definitely have the same problems with double merles. A family friend rescued one a few years ago. Had some hearing but completely blind, with the tiny eyes. Not sure if it's allowed with the ANKC or not though.

I know you are allowed to do m/m Matings with Aussies, and there sure are breeders that do it. Hence my wondering why it's allowed, but not in others :/

Sorry to go OT.

Really? It shouldn't be allowed.

Stay away from those breeders as they're obviously either dodgy or clueless.

Edited April 6, 2013 by Aussie3

[mixeduppup]

I know a lady who has a BC that is sable, ticked and merle.

[Natsu chan]

You're still allowed to do merle to merle matings in Collies, I know of one breeder who still routinely does so. I have seen over the years plenty of normal double merles, many of which actually had clear eye checks (for CEA) which in Collies is an issue. Very few do merle to merle matings these days but at one time it was fairly common.

The main problem in Collies is the same as Cowanbree has with Shelties. Numbers of Collies being bred and breeders has dropped dramatically in the last 20 years and as a result it is difficult to find a dog who is a good match for the bitch, in type, temperament, health and conformation and the right colour. So at times there is little choice something has to be compromised somewhere.

[Dame Aussie]

I just couldn't take the risk, not that I'm a breeder anyway :laugh:

[cowanbree]

I have seriously considered doing a merle/merle mating as I have 2 merles I would loved to mate together but I believe if you do and get white puppies the only responsible thing to do is have them pts and I just can't bring myself to risk it.

[Simply Grand]

I'm sure I've read about ar least one experienced Aussie breeder doing Merle to Merle mating/s as long as neither are double merles. Wouldn't you then end up with the same situation as mentioned with Shelties, where any puppies that appear Merle should not be bred from (unless genetically tested as not double Merle) but any solid pups could still turn out fine?

And re white puppies, we know there are cases of perfectly healthy mismarks with white heads so you may not need to pts any/all excessive white pups.

Having said that, I can't imagine you would take the risk unless you had very very good reasons.

[JulesP]

I'm sure I've read about ar least one experienced Aussie breeder doing Merle to Merle mating/s as long as neither are double merles. Wouldn't you then end up with the same situation as mentioned with Shelties, where any puppies that appear Merle should not be bred from (unless genetically tested as not double Merle) but any solid pups could still turn out fine?

And re white puppies, we know there are cases of perfectly healthy mismarks with white heads so you may not need to pts any/all excessive white pups.

Having said that, I can't imagine you would take the risk unless you had very very good reasons.

It is just a gamble though.

All the puppies could be perfect or you could end up with 8 blind and deaf puppies. Or anywhere in between.

[cowanbree]

I'm sure I've read about ar least one experienced Aussie breeder doing Merle to Merle mating/s as long as neither are double merles. Wouldn't you then end up with the same situation as mentioned with Shelties, where any puppies that appear Merle should not be bred from (unless genetically tested as not double Merle) but any solid pups could still turn out fine?

And re white puppies, we know there are cases of perfectly healthy mismarks with white heads so you may not need to pts any/all excessive white pups.

Having said that, I can't imagine you would take the risk unless you had very very good reasons.

I think the risk of getting double merles (who are white and are highly likely to be blind/deaf) when doing a merle to merle mating is 25%. It is not the same as doing a sable/merle mating which only risks it being unshowable