Guidedog Pts...

[labadore]

Very sad that this poor dog lost it's life without even being given a chance to adjust to a new home and new life This Lab was only 5 years old and it would have adapted to a new home and new owner and if given a chance would have probably been rehomed into a pet home. The family should have contacted the guide dog association who trained and provided the dog as they would have willingly taken the dog and rehomed it. There are people queuing up to adopt ex guide dogs.

How selfish and tragic that this poor dog was not given a chance to even grieve after the death of it's owner let alone be given a chance at a new life. I have adopted 10 year old Labs at different times, one an ex service dog and both adjusted perfectly into their new homes very easily and in no time at all it was like they had been with me all their lives. The ex service dog lived a long, happy and healthy life to 15 years old and the other one who I still have is 2 months shy of his 15th birthday and he is also doing great. I understand the very close relationship a guide dog has with its owner and I could perhaps even understand if this dog was an elderly dog, but it was a young 5 year old Lab with still many years ahead of it and it was a well trained guide dog Unbelievably sad and should not have happened

[Are You Serious Jo]

Once you are dead you have no control over how your animal is rehomed so you can't protect them from going to bad home if your relatives don't really care. How many times have we seen ads for dogs needing to be palmed off because the owner died? Yes dogs do adapt pretty quickly to new owners but not all homes are wonderful. We don't advocate letting entire undesexed dogs go to new homes because we can't guarantee that the new owners will do the right thing. So unless you leave enough money for your pet to be cared for for the rest of it's life how do you ensure it won't end up in a shelter gain at some point. Being a guide dog does muddy the waters but as for normal pet owners I don't see how it's cruel or selfish to want to make sure your animals never suffer.

[Ripley]

Do you think the family and the woman were devout Christians and believed that if they pts the guide dog, the dog would then be with their daughter in the afterlife? I'm not religious but that could be their way of thinking. Personally I feel it's a very selfish thing to do when that beautiful, and still fairly young dog, could have been rehomed to provide assistance to another person in need of a guide dog - isn't there a waiting list? Or rehomed into a pet home. People never cease to disappoint or surprise me with their actions though.

[labadore]

Once you are dead you have no control over how your animal is rehomed so you can't protect them from going to bad home if your relatives don't really care. How many times have we seen ads for dogs needing to be palmed off because the owner died? Yes dogs do adapt pretty quickly to new owners but not all homes are wonderful. We don't advocate letting entire undesexed dogs go to new homes because we can't guarantee that the new owners will do the right thing. So unless you leave enough money for your pet to be cared for for the rest of it's life how do you ensure it won't end up in a shelter gain at some point. Being a guide dog does muddy the waters but as for normal pet owners I don't see how it's cruel or selfish to want to make sure your animals never suffer.

This thread and my reply is about a "guide dog" who unlike pet dogs, would have had a valuable resource like the association that trained and provided Toffee to do the rehoming when the owner had died and guide associations have waiting lists of people wanting to adopt a guide dog whether it be a retired guide dog or one having to be rehomed for other reasons like in this case when the owner dies. Labradors in general are extremely adaptable dogs and guide dogs are selected for their temperament, trainability and adaptability and whilst their bond with their sight impaired owner would be very strong, they would be able to adapt to a new home and owner quite successfully. Out of all the service dogs, the guide dogs are the ones who are in most demand for adoption and the screening by the guide dog associations would be much stronger than rehoming a pet dog whether it be by an owner or rescues. There would have also been other opportunities for this dog beside being rehomed as a pet dog, as it could be an assitance dog, therapy dog etc as 5 years old is still young for a Labrador and they are quite capable of being retrained at this age to undertake different roles.

I also have a young Lab, who is 3½ years old who I am very strongly bonded with, but no way in hell would I ever contemplate having him PTS with me if I was unfortunate to die before he becomes a senior. I can understand owners who would contemplate this with senior dogs, dogs with health problems or behavioural problems, but not a young healthy dog with a fantastic temperament who still has many years ahead of them and would be able to bond with another owner.

It is part of pet ownership responsibility to ensure that we make provisions for our dogs in case somethings happens to us and none of us can guarantee, despite best efforts that our dogs will find the best of homes, but we owe it to them to give them an opportunity to do this. This poor guide dog wasn't given this opportunity and more importantly, it would have had the resource of the guide dog association to help in the rehoming, if only the owner and family had put the dog's needs above their own selfish needs. Labs can live up to 12-15 years old and Toffee may have been rehomed to a wonderful new owner if only given the chance and this dog's chances would have been a lot higher of finding a great new home than a pet dog, due to the amount of people willing to adopt an ex guide dog. Alternatively, Toffee may have been reassigned with a new role.

[mita]

Do you think the family and the woman were devout Christians and believed that if they pts the guide dog, the dog would then be with their daughter in the afterlife? I'm not religious but that could be their way of thinking. Personally I feel it's a very selfish thing to do when that beautiful, and still fairly young dog, could have been rehomed to provide assistance to another person in need of a guide dog - isn't there a waiting list? Or rehomed into a pet home. People never cease to disappoint or surprise me with their actions though.

A newspaper report (Daily Mail) seems to point to the owner being religious. But if and how that translated into a personal belief Toffee would 'go to heaven' with her, I couldn't guess.

Paying tribute to Mrs Stadler, the DeBaun Funeral Home refused to comment on its involvement in displaying the euthanized dog but said that she had been a 'dedicated homemaker' whose favourite book was the Bible.

Whichever way, it's not a rational way of looking at all the options for a still young dog .... who'd likely have a guide dog training organisation behind him to facilitate a new good pet home. I've seen it done here in Australia. Persephone's also knows of an example. In both cases, the dogs not only got good, reliable pet homes .... but a number of their skills still helped people.

I sure admire, hugely, the elderly lady who sought help, from people who knew what they were doing & with a good track record on care for animals ... & made sure her little dog was happily settled before her health failed further or she died. Interestingly, I was second in line for that little dog, so she'll always stay in my radar.

Edited April 6, 2013 by mita

[korbin13]

Plenty of examples of how religion and rational thinking don't correlate.

Could this happen in Australia? Do the Guide Dog Associations have contracts with the people who get the dogs?

[mita]

I'd imagine there would be some contractual arrangement when a vision-impaired person is allocated a guide dog. It's a service that's been provided ... & there's no cost to the person.

I looked up the Guide Dog Qld website & it seems there's ongoing relationship with the Association. Interesting to know if anything like 'disposing' of the dog is covered in any such contract. Surely it'd have to be. There's an enormous amount of money invested in the training, placement & support.

Also on that website is reference to how the pet public can apply for a rehomed dog:

New life and family

Our dogs make wonderful pets and sometimes just need a loving home. It is for this reason we accept applications from community members interested in purchasing our re-homed dogs.

Even though the dogs are offered for sale, we allocate them based on assessment as there are certain criteria that need to be fulfilled including having a fenced yard and being able to accommodate the dog indoors.

Applicants should understand that our dogs are accustomed to a certain level of human contact. We expect our dogs to remain inside the home with regular human contact and stimulation such as exercise and the ability of the owner to meet feeding and veterinary costs.

Click here to download the Application Form for a rehomed dog.

[Loving my Oldies]

Whichever way, it's not a rational way of looking at all the options for a still young dog .... who'd likely have a guide dog training organisation behind him to facilitate a new good pet home.

Agree.

Plenty of examples of how religion and rational thinking don't correlate.

Agree except to multiply plenty by millions.

[Sheridan]

The over-emoticon weeping and wailing in this thread is getting a trifle nauseating.

[mita]

The over-emoticon weeping and wailing in this thread is getting a trifle nauseating.

Take some Bis-Pectin. :)

[Guest donatella]

The over-emoticon weeping and wailing in this thread is getting a trifle nauseating.

Take some Bis-Pectin. :)

and use the ignore function or walk away

[WreckitWhippet]

The over-emoticon weeping and wailing in this thread is getting a trifle nauseating.

ain't that the truth

as much as people like to jump up and down, dogs are property, like it or not and everyone, including Australians can take them to the grave should they wish to do so

[mita]

[

as much as people like to jump up and down, dogs are property, like it or not and everyone, including Australians can take them to the grave should they wish to do so

It's already been pointed out in this thread that it's legal in that US context. A vet assistant checked it out:

One poor vet assistant brought some of those extremists down on his head when it was thought he was the one who did the PTS. He didn't. He said it was legal, but he thinks it was morbid, in that the dog's body was in the open coffin with the owner. His own ethic would be to rehome.

What's being discussed is the ethical question .... & your ethics are based on your values. And people have different values. So not surprising there's different views in this thread:

Vets have to work thro' ethical questions, too. This paper points out that even tho' animals are legally classed as objects of private property, welfare legislation underlines the fact that animals have intrinsic interests which must be protected regardless of the property status'.

That's not an animal rights' person .... it's from a textbook for Vets on ethics in their profession. Acknowledges that real debatable ethical dilemmas come up for vets:

https://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&q=cache:yJkfkID6vwMJ:www.forensicvet.com/media/uploads/Veterinary%2520Professional%2520Ethics%2520TS.pdf+Canadian+Veterinary+Journal+Ethical+problem+of+the+month&hl=en&gl=au&pid=bl&srcid=ADGEESg6IuR2VHodkWS7vgsT0Gr0YypRMiYDy107z4lPCvEN5Z7GzhtZyQfnb9CqJ55GJOLmHjDaSknHCGotz4gORaDou-dGRdctMrVcdZfUuE6MJdyS2UBefY0ab1tbHOPiOnNvg69C&sig=AHIEtbS8gRUBm4iWFYt9vLvxa98_GrevaA

As to the Australian scene... & given we're talking about a trained guide dog .... we don't know if there's any contractual obligation with the Guide Dog Association in this country.

Edited April 6, 2013 by mita

[Dame Aussie]

What if the owner is wrong?

What if they aren't?

Then put the dog down, least they would have given it a go, isn't it better to see whether they're right before killing the dog?

[Loving my Oldies]

The over-emoticon weeping and wailing in this thread is getting a trifle nauseating.

Really . I disagree Can't be overdone when such a travesty has been enacted upon an innocent creature.

[labadore]

The over-emoticon weeping and wailing in this thread is getting a trifle nauseating.

Really . I disagree Can't be overdone when such a travesty has been enacted upon an innocent creature.

Yep so sad :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: (one for each year that poor Lab may have missed out on)

[korbin13]

I must be one hardened bitch then. A dog peacefully put to sleep doesn't really rate a mention when you consider the cruelty and suffering that occurs in this world.

[mita]

I must be one hardened bitch then. A dog peacefully put to sleep doesn't really rate a mention when you consider the cruelty and suffering that occurs in this world.

You've just give your conclusion based on weighing up your own values. That's what ethical positions are all about. It doesn't make you more or less hard-hearted.

My position is that comparisons do not wipe out individual cases as worthy of ethical consideration. And that also doesn't make me more or less hard-hearted.

Likewise, it's a value judgment & people differ on their values.

Edited April 6, 2013 by mita

[Brookestar]

I have a close friend with a Guide Dog, her third. Her previous dog was given to her, after the owner had a stroke and suddenly died. It was almost 5 years old. It went back for a month of retraining and then went to her and they worked together, until the dog retired - it now lives with her parents.

Within Australia ALL Guide Dogs are owned by the program, not the clients. They are all reassessed on at least a yearly basis, more regularly in the first year when it is more common for things to go wrong, and more regularly when nearing retirement to ensure that the dog is still healthy to work. If the person mistreats the dog or does not use it as expected they will take the dog from them, although this is done as a last resort.

I know of parents of child with autism that obtained a dog that was retired early due to owners death, as a pet for the child.

Guide Dogs are usually bred on campus, they then go the puppy raisers, where one person has primary responsibilty for them. They form an intense bond with that person. They then go and live on campus and form an intense bond with the trainer. They then very successfully form an intense bond with the blind handler. One of the reasons labradors are the primary breed used is because they transfer so easily between different people, and do not morn for long periods of time. Sure they miss puppy raisers, but they adapt very easily. Many keep in touch with puppy raisers. My friends dog has gone to stay with her origingal puppy raisers when they took an overseas holiday without any issues and was very happy to see my friend on return. The dog did not have public access rights during this time and lapped up life as a well loved pet, which she adjusted to without any issues, although being with the puppy raisers, meant that they knew very well all the commands the dog was used to around the home and could use them.

These dogs spend the vast majority of there life off duty. They do play with other dogs, go to parks and the like. They interact with other family and friends like any normal dog when out of harness and that is most of the time. Sure I would never be allowed to give my friends Guide Dog a food treat, but I do play with her, give her belly rubs and she plays with my dogs. When she is in harness I ignore her the same as she ignores me. She knows what the harness means - both positive and negative.

ALL Guide Dog programs in Australia do take responsibility for the dogs for life. They have waiting lists of 10 years or more for reclassified/retired Guide Dogs. They make great pets, as they have had very solid early training and socialisation. When not in harness they do walk on a loose leash. They only lead when in harness. They do not just rehome to anyone. They usually require that someone be home at least part time as the dogs are used to lots of contact with people. They do not home with people who do not intend to have the dog living inside, they have spent their whole lives living inside houses. They do home visits to everyone before any dog is placed, to ensure it is suitable and to interview them. They MATCH all dogs to everyone, not just Guide Dogs. While they do give ownership to reclassified dogs to people, EVERYONE who takes one is required to sign a contract saying that if they cannot care for the dog they will give it back to the association to rehome.

The majority of Guide Dogs when retired are kept by the blind handler (about 60%), others go to live with their family. If that is not possible, the program contacts the inital puppy raiser, and/or rehomes them with someone else. Even dogs with quite severe and expensive medical condtions are rehomed and not just euthanised.

Within the US about half of programs own the dogs, the others hand over ownership on graduation. Some of those that hand over ownership upon graduation have dogs that are handed over to animal shelters/pounds when they retire, which is simply inexcusable. Any good breeder will ask anyone who buys puppies from them to contact them if they can no longer care for the dog and Guide Dog programs should be no different and within Australia they are not.

ALL dogs do morn, but they also adjust very easily to a new home. Labradors are experts at doing this and Guide Dogs are no exception. Guide Dog programs have been doing this within Australia for over 50 years and it is very very easy to do. The dogs are so well socialised and trained and bred to love everyone no matter what, that they do connect and bond with another person.

I love my dogs more than anything. That love does not mean I want them to die as healthy young dogs. It does mean that I want the best for them. If I was married or had children I would love those people, doesn't mean I would ask for a child to be killed and buried with me if I died, and my dogs are no different. I have very carefully chosen people to care for my dogs and they are written in my will. I don't want them killed, just because I die. I equally do not want them ending up in shelters. My wish is for dogs, due to the love I have for them is for them to live the fullest and happiest lives possible and I have chosen a future home for them based on this. Naturally I would hope that it would never come to that.

[mita]

Within Australia ALL Guide Dogs are owned by the program, not the clients. They are all reassessed on at least a yearly basis, more regularly in the first year when it is more common for things to go wrong, and more regularly when nearing retirement to ensure that the dog is still healthy to work. If the person mistreats the dog or does not use it as expected they will take the dog from them, although this is done as a last resort.

Thanks for the info that, contractually, guide dogs in Australia continue to be owned by the program.

Edited April 6, 2013 by mita