Guidedog Pts...

[Dame Aussie]

Bjelkier that would have been awful

One of our dogs, a JRTx, we got from renbury farm shelter in 2000. She was abused before she was dumped. She had to be dragged out of the kennel and pee'd as they pulled her out because she was so terrified. She spent many a long hour in my arms because she was too scared to walk around on her own. But overall, in her (very) simple little brain, she's happy.

Regardless of what was coming next, rusty exhibited the behaviour that some posters are describing to prove dogs are scared before being PTS. It would have made no difference why they took her out of the kennel, she could have been taken to a room full of roast chickens and she still would have freaked.

While some dogs do panic before the procedure, I think

it is unfair to continually push the point that it is cruel and they are scared, because its a bloody hard decision as it is and I think by talking about how hard it is for the dog you may inadvertently influence some people to put off PTS where it is needed, and that is far more cruel on the dog.

This last bit is what worries me. Yes it isn't perfect but the vast majority of euths are peaceful and quick, I don't want people to now be terrified of euthing and feel guilty or put it off.

[Guest donatella]

Proof exactly that it's not always the dream ending we play it out to be.

Bjelker, that is so upsetting, that must have taken a lot to move on from <img src='http://www.dolforums.com.au/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/frown.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt='' />

Sorry but that is not proof that a dog knows about or fears an impending death. I've had that very reaction from a dog that had been poked and prodded, xrayed, needled and all manner of things done to him in my presence at the vets. We went to give him an AB shot and he screamed and screamed and screamed, it went on for a couple of minutes before he eventually calmed down.

Yes, it's very upsetting and not how you would want to remember your last seconds with your dog but it's certainly not a reaction bought about by a dogs sense ( or lack there of ) of it's impending death.

Read the first sentence again 'proof that it's not always the dream ending we play out to be'. I never said that is proof dogs understand that is their immediate death.

In regards to dogs and death, no I don't believe they know that very instance is their death but i do believe they know what death is.

Edited April 10, 2013 by donatella

[Steve]

Proof exactly that it's not always the dream ending we play it out to be.

Bjelker, that is so upsetting, that must have taken a lot to move on from

Sorry but that is not proof that a dog knows about or fears an impending death. I've had that very reaction from a dog that had been poked and prodded, xrayed, needled and all manner of things done to him in my presence at the vets. We went to give him an AB shot and he screamed and screamed and screamed, it went on for a couple of minutes before he eventually calmed down.

Yes, it's very upsetting and not how you would want to remember your last seconds with your dog but it's certainly not a reaction bought about by a dogs sense ( or lack there of ) of it's impending death.

Read the first sentence again 'proof that it's not always the dream ending we play out to be'.

In regards to dogs and death, no I don't believe they know that very instance is their death but i do believe they know what death is.

You know what the question of what is death is asked every day of the year all over the world. Some believe its not the end but a beginning and others believe there is no after life , others believe in re incarnation etc etc so if a dog can understand it they are doing better than most humans. If they really did know what death is I wonder if they would choose sometimes to go in peace rather than suffer on in the hands of bad owners or suffering with illnesses their owners choose to let them suffer on with.

Dogs know what death is? Crap.

[Are You Serious Jo]

BTW, there is NO evidence that dogs understand the concept of death, they don't have the requisite cognitive capacities.

The concept of their own imminent death or that of an owner or another dog perhaps?

I would suspect that there is a huge amount of irrefutable evidence that dogs understand when an owner, or another animal that they live with, is dying or has died. Dogs do grieve, do they not?

As with any mammal in particular, they also understand when their own life is in danger and react accordingly, using the flight or fight response.

In regards to this particular situation, it is a shame that the son chose to follow his mother's wishes. People who know they are dying do not always make rational decisions, just as people who are not dying also can make stupid decisions. In my opinion, this woman's decision was not entirely different to people who choose to have a fairly young and healthy dog put down for other nefarious reasons.

Yes - ask any person involved in killing dogs in pounds and shelters. I suspect they know exactly what is about to happen to them. The airy fairy idea that this dog did not "suffer" in any way before being killed is just denial of the reality IMO.

Some may be fearful of the smells and strange people but they really don't have a clue about death. I have been on both sides, I have held animals as they were PTS when I was doing vet nursing and I also am a cognitive researcher who has done research with dogs in order to determine what they are capable of doing and understanding. I can tell you right now there are no papers that demonstrate dogs understand death, but plenty that provide evidence they don't. Your anecdotes are just that, your own experience coloured by your emotions and it is not evidence. Trust me, if dogs could be shown to demonstrate the cognitive capabilities to understand death there's be a Nature paper and you couldn't escape the press, it would be huge news. We think non-human apes might have a limited ability to think into the future but dogs can't. Do some feel a bit of fear because of the vet clinic and someone holding their leg, sure, but it's fantasy to believe they know they are going to die. So let's not scare people with misinformation.

Oh, I see, you know exactly what every dog is thinking, or not thinking.

Funnily enough yes, you do your experiments the right way you can confidently extrapolate your findings to the species as a whole :laugh: Can you post a linky to your work disputing the current literature? Where did you publish :D

So you experiment on dogs? Hmmm, interesting.

One benefit of age is that you come to understand that not all things on this earth can or will be explained by 'science'.

I will give you a little challenge. How, scientifically of course, would you explain why a dog would exhibit unusual behaviour (pacing, panting, obviously stressed) at the same time as it's owner dies unexpectantly, and whilst that owner is not present ie: at another location?

I knew you didn't know enough about cognitive research and would come back with suspicion :laugh: Cognitive research involves setting up tasks for the dog (or other animal) to do with a reward at the end. They love it because they get to play games. How you set up the task depends on what you are trying to learn, how they solve the task tells you what they are capable of.

Those anecdotes are just that, stories that are unproven. You can't eliminate human bias as an explanation for what is described. As a scientist you can't just believe what you read in books without proof, anyone can write a book, doesn't make it true. I would be a bad scientist if I believed what someone told me without any evidence especially when the carefully controlled experiments say otherwise.

[Guest donatella]

Proof exactly that it's not always the dream ending we play it out to be.

Bjelker, that is so upsetting, that must have taken a lot to move on from

Sorry but that is not proof that a dog knows about or fears an impending death. I've had that very reaction from a dog that had been poked and prodded, xrayed, needled and all manner of things done to him in my presence at the vets. We went to give him an AB shot and he screamed and screamed and screamed, it went on for a couple of minutes before he eventually calmed down.

Yes, it's very upsetting and not how you would want to remember your last seconds with your dog but it's certainly not a reaction bought about by a dogs sense ( or lack there of ) of it's impending death.

Read the first sentence again 'proof that it's not always the dream ending we play out to be'.

In regards to dogs and death, no I don't believe they know that very instance is their death but i do believe they know what death is.

You know what the question of what is death is asked every day of the year all over the world. Some believe its not the end but a beginning and others believe there is no after life , others believe in re incarnation etc etc so if a dog can understand it they are doing better than most humans. If they really did know what death is I wonder if they would choose sometimes to go in peace rather than suffer on in the hands of bad owners or suffering with illnesses their owners choose to let them suffer on with.

Dogs know what death is? Crap.

Oh okay, must be crap because you say so. I'll go with that then.

[Sheridan]

Proof exactly that it's not always the dream ending we play it out to be.

Bjelker, that is so upsetting, that must have taken a lot to move on from

Sorry but that is not proof that a dog knows about or fears an impending death. I've had that very reaction from a dog that had been poked and prodded, xrayed, needled and all manner of things done to him in my presence at the vets. We went to give him an AB shot and he screamed and screamed and screamed, it went on for a couple of minutes before he eventually calmed down.

Yes, it's very upsetting and not how you would want to remember your last seconds with your dog but it's certainly not a reaction bought about by a dogs sense ( or lack there of ) of it's impending death.

My dog screams like she's being murdered when I clip her nails. If doesn't hurt her, she's not dying, and I'm there holding her. There is no impending death, she's just a drama queen.

Hah, Mini once gave an almighty 'She's killing me!!!' yowl when I picked up a comb. Hadn't touched her yet.

[persephone]

Dogs realise when another animal is not what they normally interact with .. ... when it does not respond , etc .... which is why, if one of ours dies , I try & get others to have a look/sniff .. then they 'know' ...

as for a knowledge of the dying process ... that when so & so happens , then death happens,and that is scary because then I am no longer alive ............. Dogs are not capable of that thought, IMO.

AS for dogs having that 'ESP' function .... yes, I have heard/seen things which are other wise very very hard to explain ........

[Steve]

Proof exactly that it's not always the dream ending we play it out to be.

Bjelker, that is so upsetting, that must have taken a lot to move on from

Sorry but that is not proof that a dog knows about or fears an impending death. I've had that very reaction from a dog that had been poked and prodded, xrayed, needled and all manner of things done to him in my presence at the vets. We went to give him an AB shot and he screamed and screamed and screamed, it went on for a couple of minutes before he eventually calmed down.

Yes, it's very upsetting and not how you would want to remember your last seconds with your dog but it's certainly not a reaction bought about by a dogs sense ( or lack there of ) of it's impending death.

Read the first sentence again 'proof that it's not always the dream ending we play out to be'.

In regards to dogs and death, no I don't believe they know that very instance is their death but i do believe they know what death is.

You know what the question of what is death is asked every day of the year all over the world. Some believe its not the end but a beginning and others believe there is no after life , others believe in re incarnation etc etc so if a dog can understand it they are doing better than most humans. If they really did know what death is I wonder if they would choose sometimes to go in peace rather than suffer on in the hands of bad owners or suffering with illnesses their owners choose to let them suffer on with.

Dogs know what death is? Crap.

Oh okay, must be crap because you say so. I'll go with that then.

No no , dont do that - it must be true because you say so - silly me for not knowing that.

[Guest donatella]

I said in my opinion. Neither has been proven to be correct, there are conflicting ideas everywhere you read. I believe they do (not anywhere to our level of understanding) because of scenarios where they grieve and show signs and symptoms of loss, the same as humans.

Your "its crap", it based on what exactly?

[Are You Serious Jo]

I said in my opinion. Neither has been proven to be correct, there are conflicting ideas everywhere you read. I believe they do (not anywhere to our level of understanding) because of scenarios where they grieve and show signs and symptoms of loss, the same as humans.

Your "its crap", it based on what exactly?

Science. The very reason people do research is because a behaviour can appear to be something but when you do careful tests you can see that it is not what it appears to be. Nursing is an evidence based profession, you wouldn't just give a drug because someone wrote in a book once their mother did wonderfully on it. Exactly the same for the study of animal behaviour, you don't just discard all previous work because some person who has a bias said their dog knows something. Human bias is controlled as well, ever heard of double blind studies?

[Guest donatella]

Where is this science to say it isn't true?

[Are You Serious Jo]

There are lots of papers, in fact I've co authored one key paper in the field. Just because you don't know about them doesn't mean they don't exist. I don't just pull this stuff out of my bottom, I only post what I can verify.

[Guest donatella]

You're the first one to demand links and proof so put your money where your mouth is or be prepared to have your ideas challenged.

[Are You Serious Jo]

Go to google scholar and search for " Do dogs (Canis familiaris) understand invisible displacement?" you'll see a paper with lead author E Collier-Baker and me second author, you can download the PDF. That is the paper that got us an international award. I'm not at all worried that you will be any threat to my current understanding of dog cognition because you clearly don't have any knowledge on the subject. When you've read all the key literature on the subject come back and tell me exactly why based on the published papers in the field.

The thing is it won't tell you that dogs don't understand death, what it does is demonstrate that dogs lack the basic stage that is needed for more complex cognitive abilities such as thinking of the future, self awareness etc.

[Steph M]

I think there are so many things science can't explain that it would be borderline foolish to write any possibility off.

Personally I think there's a lot of things going on we couldn't even fathom.

Plus, if X idea, no matter how coldly scientific/ludicrously far fetched/anywhere inbetween brings someone comfort and they choose to believe that, who are we or anyone to shun that?

Live and let live :laugh:

[Guest donatella]

Hang on, do you have any studies that aren't nearly 10 years old? You cant hang onto that as gospel forever, evidenced based projects have an expiry date. If I was writing a uni paper I would not be able to use this as part of my 'research' as it would be deemed too old.

There have been studies undertaken since this. By the way this doesn't prove dogs don't have some understanding of death.

Edited April 11, 2013 by donatella

[minimax]

Hang on, do you have any studies that aren't nearly 10 years old? You cant hang onto that as gospel forever, evidenced based projects have an expiry date. If I was writing a uni paper I would not be able to use this as part of my 'research' as it would be deemed too old.

There have been studies undertaken since this. By the way this doesn't prove dogs don't have some understanding of death.

Dogs haven't suddenly developed better cognitive abilities in the last 10 years - evolution doesn't even work that fast :laugh:

[persephone]

Hang on, do you have any studies that aren't nearly 10 years old? You cant hang onto that as gospel forever, evidenced based projects have an expiry date. If I was writing a uni paper I would not be able to use this as part of my 'research' as it would be deemed too old.

There have been studies undertaken since this. By the way this doesn't prove dogs don't have some understanding of death.

I noticed this in the Rev;s post ...

][/i]The thing is it won't tell you that dogs don't understand death, what it does is demonstrate that dogs lack the basic stage that is needed for more complex cognitive abilities such as thinking of the future, self awareness etc.

[Guest donatella]

One study isn't cement for what cognitive abilities dogs have.

There will have been studies since this with different results, you generally take the most recent results (when going by evidenced based).

There is a reason why when writing papers they have a 5 year limit on articles, because yes, things can change. It's the way studies work.

[minimax]

One study isn't cement for what cognitive abilities dogs have.

There will have been studies since this with different results, you generally take the most recent results (when going by evidenced based).

There is a reason why when writing papers they have a 5 year limit on articles, because yes, things can change. It's the way studies work.

A simple google scholar search bought up a large number of studies.