Guidedog Pts...

[Rosetta]

BTW, there is NO evidence that dogs understand the concept of death, they don't have the requisite cognitive capacities.

The concept of their own imminent death or that of an owner or another dog perhaps?

I would suspect that there is a huge amount of irrefutable evidence that dogs understand when an owner, or another animal that they live with, is dying or has died. Dogs do grieve, do they not?

As with any mammal in particular, they also understand when their own life is in danger and react accordingly, using the flight or fight response.

In regards to this particular situation, it is a shame that the son chose to follow his mother's wishes. People who know they are dying do not always make rational decisions, just as people who are not dying also can make stupid decisions. In my opinion, this woman's decision was not entirely different to people who choose to have a fairly young and healthy dog put down for other nefarious reasons.

Yes - ask any person involved in killing dogs in pounds and shelters. I suspect they know exactly what is about to happen to them. The airy fairy idea that this dog did not "suffer" in any way before being killed is just denial of the reality IMO.

[Dame Aussie]

BTW, there is NO evidence that dogs understand the concept of death, they don't have the requisite cognitive capacities.

The concept of their own imminent death or that of an owner or another dog perhaps?

I would suspect that there is a huge amount of irrefutable evidence that dogs understand when an owner, or another animal that they live with, is dying or has died. Dogs do grieve, do they not?

As with any mammal in particular, they also understand when their own life is in danger and react accordingly, using the flight or fight response.

In regards to this particular situation, it is a shame that the son chose to follow his mother's wishes. People who know they are dying do not always make rational decisions, just as people who are not dying also can make stupid decisions. In my opinion, this woman's decision was not entirely different to people who choose to have a fairly young and healthy dog put down for other nefarious reasons.

Yes - ask any person involved in killing dogs in pounds and shelters. I suspect they know exactly what is about to happen to them. The airy fairy idea that this dog did not "suffer" in any way before being killed is just denial of the reality IMO.

Have you been involved in killing dogs in pounds and shelters? I have, and I strongly doubt they know exactly what's about to happen to them.

I'd never say it was a nice thing or that the dogs having a great time, but dogs cannot reason that way.

[mantis]

BTW, there is NO evidence that dogs understand the concept of death, they don't have the requisite cognitive capacities.

The concept of their own imminent death or that of an owner or another dog perhaps?

I would suspect that there is a huge amount of irrefutable evidence that dogs understand when an owner, or another animal that they live with, is dying or has died. Dogs do grieve, do they not?

As with any mammal in particular, they also understand when their own life is in danger and react accordingly, using the flight or fight response.

In regards to this particular situation, it is a shame that the son chose to follow his mother's wishes. People who know they are dying do not always make rational decisions, just as people who are not dying also can make stupid decisions. In my opinion, this woman's decision was not entirely different to people who choose to have a fairly young and healthy dog put down for other nefarious reasons.

Yes - ask any person involved in killing dogs in pounds and shelters. I suspect they know exactly what is about to happen to them. The airy fairy idea that this dog did not "suffer" in any way before being killed is just denial of the reality IMO.

When I had to get Kenny PTS, he was wagging his tail the whole time, as I was cuddling & kissing him, even as the needle went in his leg.

[Dame Aussie]

I think it's unfair to talk about dogs suffering when they are PTS. It is the most humane way for an animal to die, other than in it's sleep, and people shouldn't need to feel as though their dog is upset, scared and suffering whilst it happens.

[Are You Serious Jo]

BTW, there is NO evidence that dogs understand the concept of death, they don't have the requisite cognitive capacities.

The concept of their own imminent death or that of an owner or another dog perhaps?

I would suspect that there is a huge amount of irrefutable evidence that dogs understand when an owner, or another animal that they live with, is dying or has died. Dogs do grieve, do they not?

As with any mammal in particular, they also understand when their own life is in danger and react accordingly, using the flight or fight response.

In regards to this particular situation, it is a shame that the son chose to follow his mother's wishes. People who know they are dying do not always make rational decisions, just as people who are not dying also can make stupid decisions. In my opinion, this woman's decision was not entirely different to people who choose to have a fairly young and healthy dog put down for other nefarious reasons.

Yes - ask any person involved in killing dogs in pounds and shelters. I suspect they know exactly what is about to happen to them. The airy fairy idea that this dog did not "suffer" in any way before being killed is just denial of the reality IMO.

Some may be fearful of the smells and strange people but they really don't have a clue about death. I have been on both sides, I have held animals as they were PTS when I was doing vet nursing and I also am a cognitive researcher who has done research with dogs in order to determine what they are capable of doing and understanding. I can tell you right now there are no papers that demonstrate dogs understand death, but plenty that provide evidence they don't. Your anecdotes are just that, your own experience coloured by your emotions and it is not evidence. Trust me, if dogs could be shown to demonstrate the cognitive capabilities to understand death there's be a Nature paper and you couldn't escape the press, it would be huge news. We think non-human apes might have a limited ability to think into the future but dogs can't. Do some feel a bit of fear because of the vet clinic and someone holding their leg, sure, but it's fantasy to believe they know they are going to die. So let's not scare people with misinformation.

[Staffyluv]

I think it's unfair to talk about dogs suffering when they are PTS. It is the most humane way for an animal to die, other than in it's sleep, and people shouldn't need to feel as though their dog is upset, scared and suffering whilst it happens.

When we let Ollie dog go it was very peaceful.

I put him up on the table, he was happy to see the vet and got to say goodbye to quite a few of the wonderful vet staff that had helped him over the years.

He was ill and had enough. So we made the decision with the vet that it was time (and I just knew)..

He was given an anaesthetic (due to the condition of his veins from chemo) and then once he was asleep he was given the final injection.

As sad as it was for us, he seemed quite fine with everything that was going on around him.

[Maxiewolf]

Plenty of innocent dogs have been killed for far less worthwhile reasons, remove the fact it is a trained guide dog - and if what is said owner trained, well then the dog wasn't given to her by a guide dog society, the dog may well not have been able to serve someone else as well as its master but - the dog obviously lived a very happy 5 year long life, it was put to sleep and now neither it or its owner know any different.

Where is the uproar for the "I'm moving, cant have a dog at my new house so Ill have it PTS." "Kids are allergic - Ill have it PTS" "She barks alot - Ill have her PTS" "She growled at someone ill have her PTS" "I just DONT WANT IT anymore so ill have it PTS" - you can bet it happens to thousands more dogs than this one guide dog, and you can bet its not the first dog that someone has had pts to be buried with them - it wont be the last. Why should this lady be deprived of her final wish because of her dogs "job" ?

I don't agree with what she did, surely she could have stipulated that the dog continue to live out its life and have its ashes or body added to her grave at a later date, I know that's what I would prefer.

[Sheridan]

I think it's unfair to talk about dogs suffering when they are PTS. It is the most humane way for an animal to die, other than in it's sleep, and people shouldn't need to feel as though their dog is upset, scared and suffering whilst it happens.

When we let Ollie dog go it was very peaceful.

I put him up on the table, he was happy to see the vet and got to say goodbye to quite a few of the wonderful vet staff that had helped him over the years.

He was ill and had enough. So we made the decision with the vet that it was time (and I just knew)..

He was given an anaesthetic (due to the condition of his veins from chemo) and then once he was asleep he was given the final injection.

As sad as it was for us, he seemed quite fine with everything that was going on around him.

Grumpy tried to bite the vet. One more time for old time's sake ...

[Rosetta]

BTW, there is NO evidence that dogs understand the concept of death, they don't have the requisite cognitive capacities.

The concept of their own imminent death or that of an owner or another dog perhaps?

I would suspect that there is a huge amount of irrefutable evidence that dogs understand when an owner, or another animal that they live with, is dying or has died. Dogs do grieve, do they not?

As with any mammal in particular, they also understand when their own life is in danger and react accordingly, using the flight or fight response.

In regards to this particular situation, it is a shame that the son chose to follow his mother's wishes. People who know they are dying do not always make rational decisions, just as people who are not dying also can make stupid decisions. In my opinion, this woman's decision was not entirely different to people who choose to have a fairly young and healthy dog put down for other nefarious reasons.

Yes - ask any person involved in killing dogs in pounds and shelters. I suspect they know exactly what is about to happen to them. The airy fairy idea that this dog did not "suffer" in any way before being killed is just denial of the reality IMO.

Some may be fearful of the smells and strange people but they really don't have a clue about death. I have been on both sides, I have held animals as they were PTS when I was doing vet nursing and I also am a cognitive researcher who has done research with dogs in order to determine what they are capable of doing and understanding. I can tell you right now there are no papers that demonstrate dogs understand death, but plenty that provide evidence they don't. Your anecdotes are just that, your own experience coloured by your emotions and it is not evidence. Trust me, if dogs could be shown to demonstrate the cognitive capabilities to understand death there's be a Nature paper and you couldn't escape the press, it would be huge news. We think non-human apes might have a limited ability to think into the future but dogs can't. Do some feel a bit of fear because of the vet clinic and someone holding their leg, sure, but it's fantasy to believe they know they are going to die. So let's not scare people with misinformation.

Oh - I'm not trying to scare people. I'm going on footage I have seen - for instance on that SBS show of the poor dogs in that pound who were obviously terrified and distressed - aware that something bad was happening to them, even though they did not understand it as "death" - no anecdote there. Of course not all pounds are like that one and vet surgeries would be very different.

I am sorry if I have distressed anyone who have had to go through the experience of having their beloved dog PTS by a caring vet.

[Rosetta]

Plenty of innocent dogs have been killed for far less worthwhile reasons, remove the fact it is a trained guide dog - and if what is said owner trained, well then the dog wasn't given to her by a guide dog society, the dog may well not have been able to serve someone else as well as its master but - the dog obviously lived a very happy 5 year long life, it was put to sleep and now neither it or its owner know any different.

Where is the uproar for the "I'm moving, cant have a dog at my new house so Ill have it PTS." "Kids are allergic - Ill have it PTS" "She barks alot - Ill have her PTS" "She growled at someone ill have her PTS" "I just DONT WANT IT anymore so ill have it PTS" - you can bet it happens to thousands more dogs than this one guide dog, and you can bet its not the first dog that someone has had pts to be buried with them - it wont be the last. Why should this lady be deprived of her final wish because of her dogs "job" ?

I don't agree with what she did, surely she could have stipulated that the dog continue to live out its life and have its ashes or body added to her grave at a later date, I know that's what I would prefer.

There has been plenty of uproar about that type of thing on this forum - we just are not allowed to talk about Gumtree anymore :)

[labadore]

Plenty of innocent dogs have been killed for far less worthwhile reasons, remove the fact it is a trained guide dog - and if what is said owner trained, well then the dog wasn't given to her by a guide dog society, the dog may well not have been able to serve someone else as well as its master but - the dog obviously lived a very happy 5 year long life, it was put to sleep and now neither it or its owner know any different.

Where is the uproar for the "I'm moving, cant have a dog at my new house so Ill have it PTS." "Kids are allergic - Ill have it PTS" "She barks alot - Ill have her PTS" "She growled at someone ill have her PTS" "I just DONT WANT IT anymore so ill have it PTS" - you can bet it happens to thousands more dogs than this one guide dog, and you can bet its not the first dog that someone has had pts to be buried with them - it wont be the last. Why should this lady be deprived of her final wish because of her dogs "job" ?

I don't agree with what she did, surely she could have stipulated that the dog continue to live out its life and have its ashes or body added to her grave at a later date, I know that's what I would prefer.

Someone mentioned in this thread this Guide Dog was owner trained, a couple of us have asked for the link(s) to the article(s) that mentioned this and these links have not been provided.

This thread is about a Guide Dog, and in that context, we have expressed outrage that a "trained" guide dog, presumably from a relevant organisation trained and provided this Guide Dog and due to the cost to train a guide dog and the value to the community and the age of the dog and breed of dog, this dog should have been given a chance at a new life with a new owner, whether it be reclassified if from a guide dog association or retrained or rehomed as a pet. Whether you like it or not, Guide Dogs are and should be treated differently than pet dogs due to the invaluable service they provide the community.

[Sheridan]

Plenty of innocent dogs have been killed for far less worthwhile reasons, remove the fact it is a trained guide dog - and if what is said owner trained, well then the dog wasn't given to her by a guide dog society, the dog may well not have been able to serve someone else as well as its master but - the dog obviously lived a very happy 5 year long life, it was put to sleep and now neither it or its owner know any different.

Where is the uproar for the "I'm moving, cant have a dog at my new house so Ill have it PTS." "Kids are allergic - Ill have it PTS" "She barks alot - Ill have her PTS" "She growled at someone ill have her PTS" "I just DONT WANT IT anymore so ill have it PTS" - you can bet it happens to thousands more dogs than this one guide dog, and you can bet its not the first dog that someone has had pts to be buried with them - it wont be the last. Why should this lady be deprived of her final wish because of her dogs "job" ?

I don't agree with what she did, surely she could have stipulated that the dog continue to live out its life and have its ashes or body added to her grave at a later date, I know that's what I would prefer.

Someone mentioned in this thread this Guide Dog was owner trained, a couple of us have asked for the link(s) to the article(s) that mentioned this and these links have not been provided.

This thread is about a Guide Dog, and in that context, we have expressed outrage that a "trained" guide dog, presumably from a relevant organisation trained and provided this Guide Dog and due to the cost to train a guide dog and the value to the community and the age of the dog and breed of dog, this dog should have been given a chance at a new life with a new owner, whether it be reclassified if from a guide dog association or retrained or rehomed as a pet. Whether you like it or not, Guide Dogs are and should be treated differently than pet dogs due to the invaluable service they provide the community.

And what were the rules pertaining to guide dogs where this woman was located?

[skelp2]

BTW, there is NO evidence that dogs understand the concept of death, they don't have the requisite cognitive capacities.

The concept of their own imminent death or that of an owner or another dog perhaps?

I would suspect that there is a huge amount of irrefutable evidence that dogs understand when an owner, or another animal that they live with, is dying or has died. Dogs do grieve, do they not?

As with any mammal in particular, they also understand when their own life is in danger and react accordingly, using the flight or fight response.

In regards to this particular situation, it is a shame that the son chose to follow his mother's wishes. People who know they are dying do not always make rational decisions, just as people who are not dying also can make stupid decisions. In my opinion, this woman's decision was not entirely different to people who choose to have a fairly young and healthy dog put down for other nefarious reasons.

Yes - ask any person involved in killing dogs in pounds and shelters. I suspect they know exactly what is about to happen to them. The airy fairy idea that this dog did not "suffer" in any way before being killed is just denial of the reality IMO.

Some may be fearful of the smells and strange people but they really don't have a clue about death. I have been on both sides, I have held animals as they were PTS when I was doing vet nursing and I also am a cognitive researcher who has done research with dogs in order to determine what they are capable of doing and understanding. I can tell you right now there are no papers that demonstrate dogs understand death, but plenty that provide evidence they don't. Your anecdotes are just that, your own experience coloured by your emotions and it is not evidence. Trust me, if dogs could be shown to demonstrate the cognitive capabilities to understand death there's be a Nature paper and you couldn't escape the press, it would be huge news. We think non-human apes might have a limited ability to think into the future but dogs can't. Do some feel a bit of fear because of the vet clinic and someone holding their leg, sure, but it's fantasy to believe they know they are going to die. So let's not scare people with misinformation.

Oh, I see, you know exactly what every dog is thinking, or not thinking.

[Are You Serious Jo]

BTW, there is NO evidence that dogs understand the concept of death, they don't have the requisite cognitive capacities.

The concept of their own imminent death or that of an owner or another dog perhaps?

I would suspect that there is a huge amount of irrefutable evidence that dogs understand when an owner, or another animal that they live with, is dying or has died. Dogs do grieve, do they not?

As with any mammal in particular, they also understand when their own life is in danger and react accordingly, using the flight or fight response.

In regards to this particular situation, it is a shame that the son chose to follow his mother's wishes. People who know they are dying do not always make rational decisions, just as people who are not dying also can make stupid decisions. In my opinion, this woman's decision was not entirely different to people who choose to have a fairly young and healthy dog put down for other nefarious reasons.

Yes - ask any person involved in killing dogs in pounds and shelters. I suspect they know exactly what is about to happen to them. The airy fairy idea that this dog did not "suffer" in any way before being killed is just denial of the reality IMO.

Some may be fearful of the smells and strange people but they really don't have a clue about death. I have been on both sides, I have held animals as they were PTS when I was doing vet nursing and I also am a cognitive researcher who has done research with dogs in order to determine what they are capable of doing and understanding. I can tell you right now there are no papers that demonstrate dogs understand death, but plenty that provide evidence they don't. Your anecdotes are just that, your own experience coloured by your emotions and it is not evidence. Trust me, if dogs could be shown to demonstrate the cognitive capabilities to understand death there's be a Nature paper and you couldn't escape the press, it would be huge news. We think non-human apes might have a limited ability to think into the future but dogs can't. Do some feel a bit of fear because of the vet clinic and someone holding their leg, sure, but it's fantasy to believe they know they are going to die. So let's not scare people with misinformation.

Oh, I see, you know exactly what every dog is thinking, or not thinking.

Funnily enough yes, you do your experiments the right way you can confidently extrapolate your findings to the species as a whole :laugh: Can you post a linky to your work disputing the current literature? Where did you publish :D

[Guest donatella]

If dogs dont understand the concept of death I want to know how stories like this are explained. Ones where dogs go to extraordinary lengths to save each other/humans from dangerous, possibly fatal situations. Instinct? Surely there is some motivation of impending doom and danger. Why would this dog save this injured dog from the highway, ie death if it had no idea what death was?

I don't believe they don't understand and I do believe they grieve.

http://animal.discovery.com/tv-shows/weird-true-and-freaky/videos/dog-rescues-dog-on-highway.htm

[Loving my Oldies]

Rest assured, I wouldn't look towards you (or indeed, Mita) to look after my dogs.

I wasn't aware that I had offered , but as usual, having nothing constructive to contribute, you turn things into a personal attack.

This is a thread about the unnecessary cruel and mean destruction of a healthy dog. I am saddened by the number of people who think that is okay but also heartened by the greater number who think it is not.

[Steve]

I dont think its O.K. but I do think its more O.K. than telling lies to someone and then breaking your word when it was probably the most important request to them the person asking ever had .If you cant promise and know you will keep it you shouldn't promise.

This person got a promise from her son and I expect any promise my sons make to me they will be kept whether Im around to check on that or not. By saying yes and then doing the opposite it prevents her reconsidering and finding someone else or another alternative which she had some element of control of.

[Sheridan]

Rest assured, I wouldn't look towards you (or indeed, Mita) to look after my dogs.

I wasn't aware that I had offered , but as usual, having nothing constructive to contribute, you turn things into a personal attack.

This is a thread about the unnecessary cruel and mean destruction of a healthy dog. I am saddened by the number of people who think that is okay but also heartened by the greater number who think it is not.

You said your previous post was to me and to Jo, so I was responding to it. Make up your mind.

[Are You Serious Jo]

If dogs dont understand the concept of death I want to know how stories like this are explained. Ones where dogs go to extraordinary lengths to save each other/humans from dangerous, possibly fatal situations. Instinct? Surely there is some motivation of impending doom and danger. Why would this dog save this injured dog from the highway, ie death if it had no idea what death was?

I don't believe they don't understand and I do believe they grieve.

http://animal.discovery.com/tv-shows/weird-true-and-freaky/videos/dog-rescues-dog-on-highway.htm

Instinct, selection has honed it over the years, you protect your kin and social partners because it is advantageous to. Some dogs will show grief like behaviours but they cannot think about all the things they won't be doing with their dead friend or relative. They simply cannot think into the future. Being able to do so is what gave humans the huge leap they have made away from the other hominids. Caching is also an instinctive behaviour in case you were going to ask.

[Rosetta]

I thought the point was though that they are afraid/distressed therefore they are suffering - rather than whether they understand the concept of death? Of course they don't think like humans or have the same understanding of what death means but they are sentient beings who are capable of picking up on the distress of others around them - either their owners or other animals.