Guidedog Pts...

[Steve]

[

I don't either but Id like to think if I have a death bed wish that the person I'm asking has the same base ethics that I do and they aren't just saying what they think I want to hear so if they say no I can try someone else.

As I said.... I'm realistic & would be in my own case. And within the highly specific scenario I've set out.

Yes I get it - which way to go - do the right thing by the person or the right thing by the dog ? Straight out ethics 101 and what you think you would do can change in a heart beat anyway when it comes to real life rather than someone else's dilemma.

[Little Gifts]

I guess as an animal lover I simply couldn't agree if a family member or friend asked me to even pts their healthy dog. If they asked me to do everything in my power to ensure their dog led a happy and healthy life after they were gone then that I would most definitely agree to, even if it wasn't me keeping the dog long term.

My mother has a stray tabby cat that she tamed (I got him desexed and keep him wormed and vaccinated) that she adores. The cat adores my mum in return but as a stray he spends most of his time out in their covered verandah rather than as an indoors cat. He is afraid of dogs so we have stopped taking ours over as he disappears into the attic for a couple of days after we visit and that stresses mum out. Mum is getting dementia and the time will come when her beloved tabby (who is not yet 2) will need a new home. He can't live with us with the dog situation. I've already been putting feelers out and would be prepared to pay for his upkeep with another cat lover - he is at least used to being around lots of other cats and an outdoor enclosure set up. I have told my mum this because her cat could live for another 20 years and she may not be in a situation to care for him for even another 2. I don't want her to worry or think having him pts is her only option. I want her to simply enjoy his company for as long as it lasts. If our fur kids mean that much to us we should be having these conversations with our loved ones.

We will all have different perspectives on this issue but I have fostered a dog with a broken heart after losing his owner and he has learned to love life again with a special family. Dogs have a resilience I don't think us humans do. I just can't support the pts of healthy companion animals (regardless of age) without consideration given to other options because it is not something I am personally comfortable with. If after all or other options have been pursued and it is clear the dog is still suffering needlessly from the loss of the original owner then pts might be the final option. For me, I'm just not comfortable with it being the first and could never make that promise to someone knowing I couldn't go through with it. I'd rather change my life to look after that dog than change my life by doing something that would hurt my soul.

[mantis]

Yes, if you have problems with the request just don't agree to it in the first place. I sort of always thought people held a dying wish as sacred but I guess not.

My dear elderly friend who was like a Mum to me, was going to have her little dog PTS on her death, but when I said I would take him she was so happy, because she knew I could care for him with his aggression issues. Unfortunately because of some residents in the units I am living in, getting angry that I was having the dog, her family decided not to carry out her wish. I am so sad & feel that I let her down, but there is nothing I could do. I just hope the little dog is living a happy life & hasn't been PTS because of his issues.

[labadore]

The luxury a person diagnosed with a terminal illness has is that they are able to sort out all their affairs, so if they feel so strongly that they want their dog PTS, then they should do this as part of sorting out their affairs before they die, instead of putting this awful burden on a relative or friend. It seems these selfish people want the best of both worlds, they want their dog to be with them until they die and then place the awful burden on a relative or friend to be responsible for putting the poor dog down. If they care so much for their poor dog, then they would be there to hold it, cuddle it as it takes its last breath. Even if their illness prevents them leaving the house a Vet can do a house visit. Maybe if they had to take responsibility for organising their dog to be PTS and to be there with it, they may not be so willing it do it, particularly for a young, healthy dog with no behavioural problems.

I disagree strongly with PTS a young healthy happy dog who could adjust to a rehoming and bond with a new owner and live a very fulfilled life and if I was selfish enough to think this couldn't happen and I was diagnosed with a terminal illness, I would take care of this myself before I died rather than burden my family or friend with this awful task.

[mita]

[

Yes I get it - which way to go - do the right thing by the person or the right thing by the dog ? Straight out ethics 101 and what you think you would do can change in a heart beat anyway when it comes to real life rather than someone else's dilemma.

Yes, situational ethics means taking things on a case by case basis. And identifying & thinking about the variables in each case. As I've said, I set my decision within a highly specific scenario. Change even one variable ... & it becomes different.

Situation ethics rejects 'prefabricated decisions and prescriptive rules'. It says that ethical decisions should follow flexible guidelines rather than absolute rules, and be taken on a case by case basis.

Edited April 7, 2013 by mita

[Steve]

The luxury a person diagnosed with a terminal illness has is that they are able to sort out all their affairs, so if they feel so strongly that they want their dog PTS, then they should do this as part of sorting out their affairs before they die, instead of putting this awful burden on a relative or friend. It seems these selfish people want the best of both worlds, they want their dog to be with them until they die and then place the awful burden on a relative or friend to be responsible for putting the poor dog down. If they care so much for their poor dog, then they would be there to hold it, cuddle it as it takes its last breath. Even if their illness prevents them leaving the house a Vet can do a house visit. Maybe if they had to take responsibility for organising their dog to be PTS and to be there with it, they may not be so willing it do it, particularly for a young, healthy dog with no behavioural problems.

I disagree strongly with PTS a young healthy happy dog who could adjust to a rehoming and bond with a new owner and live a very fulfilled life and if I was selfish enough to think this couldn't happen and I was diagnosed with a terminal illness, I would take care of this myself before I died rather than burden my family or friend with this awful task.

But this is a judgement based on assumption. I've seen people who know they are dying get the timing wrong and they get to a point where it happens too fast or faster than expected or its a quick deterioration which doesn't allow them to follow through with their plans themselves.

[Rosetta]

The luxury a person diagnosed with a terminal illness has is that they are able to sort out all their affairs, so if they feel so strongly that they want their dog PTS, then they should do this as part of sorting out their affairs before they die, instead of putting this awful burden on a relative or friend. It seems these selfish people want the best of both worlds, they want their dog to be with them until they die and then place the awful burden on a relative or friend to be responsible for putting the poor dog down. If they care so much for their poor dog, then they would be there to hold it, cuddle it as it takes its last breath. Even if their illness prevents them leaving the house a Vet can do a house visit. Maybe if they had to take responsibility for organising their dog to be PTS and to be there with it, they may not be so willing it do it, particularly for a young, healthy dog with no behavioural problems.

I disagree strongly with PTS a young healthy happy dog who could adjust to a rehoming and bond with a new owner and live a very fulfilled life and if I was selfish enough to think this couldn't happen and I was diagnosed with a terminal illness, I would take care of this myself before I died rather than burden my family or friend with this awful task.

Exactly. If a person with a terminal illness wants the dog put down then it should be done by them while they are still capable rather than put such a terrible burden on loved ones. I simply could not do it. But, I would tell the person so when the request was made and try to convince them that rehoming would be in the best interest of the animal if it was young and healthy - both physically and mentally.

If such a request was made in a will and the Executor did not carry it out then I suspect there would have to be a complaint made for any legal follow up to occur. Even then I can't see where any court would impose a penalty where the animal was young and healthy and happily rehomed. I think it would be considered a reasonable decision to have made with the animal's welfare being the first consideration.

[Loving my Oldies]

I suspect DD will be knocking down my door though so I think you will be safe :laugh:

Hardly.

But you have such strong views on this I thought you'd help a sister out :laugh: Thanks for helping prove my point by the way.

Oh, people have strong views but when it comes to stepping up then that's another matter entirely.

I have absolutely no idea what you are talking about and why you'd expect me to be knocking at your door. . But, as always, the health and happiness of my dogs take precedence over everything else and so off to tend to them :) and leave this thread to the degeneration that most of any substance take

[labadore]

The luxury a person diagnosed with a terminal illness has is that they are able to sort out all their affairs, so if they feel so strongly that they want their dog PTS, then they should do this as part of sorting out their affairs before they die, instead of putting this awful burden on a relative or friend. It seems these selfish people want the best of both worlds, they want their dog to be with them until they die and then place the awful burden on a relative or friend to be responsible for putting the poor dog down. If they care so much for their poor dog, then they would be there to hold it, cuddle it as it takes its last breath. Even if their illness prevents them leaving the house a Vet can do a house visit. Maybe if they had to take responsibility for organising their dog to be PTS and to be there with it, they may not be so willing it do it, particularly for a young, healthy dog with no behavioural problems.

I disagree strongly with PTS a young healthy happy dog who could adjust to a rehoming and bond with a new owner and live a very fulfilled life and if I was selfish enough to think this couldn't happen and I was diagnosed with a terminal illness, I would take care of this myself before I died rather than burden my family or friend with this awful task.

But this is a judgement based on assumption. I've seen people who know they are dying get the timing wrong and they get to a point where it happens too fast or faster than expected or its a quick deterioration which doesn't allow them to follow through with their plans themselves.

There are always exceptions, but the point is if a person feels that strongly on the need to PTS their dog when they die, they need to make it a priority as part of settling their affairs and most people who are diagnosed with a terminal illness know that time is of the essence and doctors cannot give them a definitive time that they have left.

I have lost my parents, my two youngest siblings and two very close friends to terminal illnesses, so I do have some experience with timeframes from diagnosis. My youngest sibling, my brother died from a brain tumour as a result of a bad motorbike accident he had a couple of years prior and when he was diagnosed he set about organising his affairs and one of these was that he wanted his beautiful 3 year old Rottweiler PTS and buried with him. My brother was part of a bikie gang and even his bikie mates were horrified at his request as this dog was such a young healthy magnificent dog and none of them were comfortable with doing this and they tried to talk him out of it but he was adamant it should happen. After his death they spoke about this with with us the family who they knew were all avid dog lovers and owners and my sister and mother were also Rottweiler owners of many years and my sister offered to take on the dog if a good home could not be found for him. His wife who he was separated from at the time of his illness and death offered to take the dog into hiding so it couldn't be PTS whilst arrangements were made to find the dog a good home. In the end the dog was rehomed to a very good friend of my brothers who was a very experienced Rottweiler owner who knew of my brother's request but because this stunning dog was so young, so healthy, so full of life, he along with the rest of us (family and friends) could not be responsible for this beautiful dog's death and we all believed our brother/friend was actually being selfish in requesting this. This beautiful dog had options and our brother knew that and none of us felt guilty in not putting this beautiful dog to sleep. He lived for another 10 years in a great home.

[Guest donatella]

People aren't in the best mindset to make decisions when diagnosed with terminal illnesses, particularly brain injuries, they are never really themselves again. I see it every week.

[labadore]

People aren't in the best mindset to make decisions when diagnosed with terminal illnesses, particularly brain injuries, they are never really themselves again. I see it every week.

I do agree with those suffering brain injuries as was the case with my brother. However, my brother had told his friends years before he had his accident was diagnosed with a brain tumour that if ever he died he wanted his dog he had at the time to be PTS to sleep with him. This was not the same dog he had when he did die years later.

Based on your statement above the "People aren't in the best mindset to make decisions when diagnosed with terminal illnesses", then they shouldn't be making decisions to have their dogs PTS after they die.

Whilst some may not be in the best mindset, others are thinking and acting rationally in sorting out their affairs and are quite capable of making decisions.

Edited April 7, 2013 by labadore

[Sheridan]

I suspect DD will be knocking down my door though so I think you will be safe :laugh:

Hardly.

But you have such strong views on this I thought you'd help a sister out :laugh: Thanks for helping prove my point by the way.

Oh, people have strong views but when it comes to stepping up then that's another matter entirely.

I have absolutely no idea what you are talking about and why you'd expect me to be knocking at your door. . But, as always, the health and happiness of my dogs take precedence over everything else and so off to tend to them :) and leave this thread to the degeneration that most of any substance take

I think you are mistaking me for Jo.

[megan_]

It seems a waste of an guide dog, however as the owner of an animal, you have every right to request it be PTS.

This is a bit different though? A charity has invested tens of thousands training the dog. Like others, I would have thought that one of the conditions of getting a guide dog would be that you return it if you can't use it for its original purpose at any stage.

ETA: I have a dog that will be PTS when I die. This is because she has been abused in the fast and is very fearful (and can be FA) though, not because I have some notion that she'll never be happy with someone else. If I could guarantee her a home where she would be safely managed and her needs met I wouldn't be PTS.

Edited April 8, 2013 by megan_

[megan_]

The luxury a person diagnosed with a terminal illness has is that they are able to sort out all their affairs, so if they feel so strongly that they want their dog PTS, then they should do this as part of sorting out their affairs before they die, instead of putting this awful burden on a relative or friend. It seems these selfish people want the best of both worlds, they want their dog to be with them until they die and then place the awful burden on a relative or friend to be responsible for putting the poor dog down. If they care so much for their poor dog, then they would be there to hold it, cuddle it as it takes its last breath. Even if their illness prevents them leaving the house a Vet can do a house visit. Maybe if they had to take responsibility for organising their dog to be PTS and to be there with it, they may not be so willing it do it, particularly for a young, healthy dog with no behavioural problems.

I disagree strongly with PTS a young healthy happy dog who could adjust to a rehoming and bond with a new owner and live a very fulfilled life and if I was selfish enough to think this couldn't happen and I was diagnosed with a terminal illness, I would take care of this myself before I died rather than burden my family or friend with this awful task.

While I disagree with PTS a young healthy dog too, she couldn't do this in this scenario because she was blind and needed the dog as a guide dog.

[Are You Serious Jo]

BThe poor son is probably very sorry that he agreed to do this for his Mum but watching someone die and agreeing to do as they are begging you to do is pretty bloody powerful and its very difficult to deny them.

I have no quibble with someone making an ethical decision that might be different from mine.

Well clearly you do because you would refuse to honour what the other thought was their ethical decision.

[Steph M]

Such an odd story! How awful, perhaps the owner meant 'when the time came...'?

[Loving my Oldies]

I suspect DD will be knocking down my door though so I think you will be safe :laugh:

Hardly.

But you have such strong views on this I thought you'd help a sister out :laugh: Thanks for helping prove my point by the way.

Oh, people have strong views but when it comes to stepping up then that's another matter entirely.

I have absolutely no idea what you are talking about and why you'd expect me to be knocking at your door. . But, as always, the health and happiness of my dogs take precedence over everything else and so off to tend to them :) and leave this thread to the degeneration that most of any substance take

I think you are mistaking me for Jo.

No, I was talking to both of you.

[Sheridan]

I suspect DD will be knocking down my door though so I think you will be safe :laugh:

Hardly.

But you have such strong views on this I thought you'd help a sister out :laugh: Thanks for helping prove my point by the way.

Oh, people have strong views but when it comes to stepping up then that's another matter entirely.

I have absolutely no idea what you are talking about and why you'd expect me to be knocking at your door. . But, as always, the health and happiness of my dogs take precedence over everything else and so off to tend to them :) and leave this thread to the degeneration that most of any substance take

I think you are mistaking me for Jo.

No, I was talking to both of you.

Rest assured, I wouldn't look towards you (or indeed, Mita) to look after my dogs.

[Brookestar]

She should have been returned to the organisation that trained and provided her so she could either be reassigned, retrained or rehomed into a pet home,

and if she had lived in Australia, she probably would have been ! This wasn't in Australia though , and it was mentioned on here that she was trained by the owner ...

Where do you base that information on. The origninal article that was in a local newspaper in the country concerned, removed the article due to death threats. But I personally read that article, and it never ever said it was owner trained. It did in fact say the contrary. The family has also publically said the opposite on facebook posts. If you have more information, then please provide the links for it.

While there are some assistance dogs that are owner trained, it is incredibly rare to owner train a Guide Dog. The primary reason for that is that they are the most difficult to train and they are very easy to obtain, in comparison to other Assistance Dogs, in the US, the average wait is 3 months, compared to 6-12 months in Australia. One cannot just go to a pound pick up a dog and train it as a Guide Dog in 3 months. It takes professional masters degree and internationally accredited Guide Dog Trainers, 6 months to train these dogs, and that is only if they pass all the health and temperament tests necessary for them to be able to be safely trained. Simple fact is 99.9% of dogs do not have what it takes to be a Guide Dog and 99.9% of dog trainers would have no idea of how to train them. Guide Dog Trainers do a 3 year full time cadetship, and then sit INTERNATIONAL exams of both a theoretical and practical nature. One does not simply put a sign on there door and call themselves a Guide Dog Trainer. These dogs are for people who are BLIND. They cannot command a dog to "leave it", when it is distracted, as they do not know the dog is distracted. The dog MUST be able to work around everything, without guidance, like other assistance dogs rely on all the time. MOST Guide Dog programs now give some of there reclassified puppies to Assistance Dog Programs. The dogs might have what it takes to be an Assistnace Dog, but they sure as hell do not have what it takes to be a Guide Dog. It does not happen in the opposite direction and can't, there is too much at stake with people who cannot see. That does not mean that Hearing and Assistance Dogs are not highly trained dogs, they are, but they are not Guide Dog and their trainers are not Guide Dog Trainers. The way Guide Dogs pull into the harness, places a great deal of strain on the back and so they need to have excellent hip and elbow confirmation, etc. Not something one is going to find a pound dog.

[Brookestar]

The luxury a person diagnosed with a terminal illness has is that they are able to sort out all their affairs, so if they feel so strongly that they want their dog PTS, then they should do this as part of sorting out their affairs before they die, instead of putting this awful burden on a relative or friend. It seems these selfish people want the best of both worlds, they want their dog to be with them until they die and then place the awful burden on a relative or friend to be responsible for putting the poor dog down. If they care so much for their poor dog, then they would be there to hold it, cuddle it as it takes its last breath. Even if their illness prevents them leaving the house a Vet can do a house visit. Maybe if they had to take responsibility for organising their dog to be PTS and to be there with it, they may not be so willing it do it, particularly for a young, healthy dog with no behavioural problems.

I disagree strongly with PTS a young healthy happy dog who could adjust to a rehoming and bond with a new owner and live a very fulfilled life and if I was selfish enough to think this couldn't happen and I was diagnosed with a terminal illness, I would take care of this myself before I died rather than burden my family or friend with this awful task.

While I disagree with PTS a young healthy dog too, she couldn't do this in this scenario because she was blind and needed the dog as a guide dog.

The dog could very easily have found a new home, as either a Guide Dog to someone else, as a therapy dog for a young child, or simply as a well loved pet. Guide Dog Programs in Australia do it all the time, and have for over 50 years. Just because it was a Guide Dog, does not mean it could not be rehomed. Quite the contrary, more than most dogs, these dogs have already had mutliple homes, without issue. They are highly trained and socialised dogs and are very much sought after. Many programs have a 10 year + long waiting list to take on one of there dogs that are either reclassified or retired. The dog would not have been working as a Guide Dog, while she was in the final stages of life and would have worked for at least a few weeks. One does not use a Guide Dog, while hooked up to morphine drips in a hospital or pallative care unit. A person in the final stages of cancer is not out walking the streets one day and dead the next. It is a very slow and debilitating death.