Guidedog Pts...

[mita]

I have rapidly lost faith because we have one person who said she'd ignore the owner's wishes and from comments I suspect a few more. These are dog people who should understand how unreliable some people can be with pets. Now I'm going to do more research to make sure that "do gooders" cannot over turn my wishes.

Yes, I'm that person.... & the dog was young & healthy... & I had confidence that there was a good home available .... then I'd place the dog in that home.

[Guest donatella]

Who is going to want to PTS a young dog? Who am I going to find to do that for me?

I would have never agreed to that. I wouldn't PTS a young healthy rehomeable dog, it is against my ethics.

[Are You Serious Jo]

I guess you have no problem lying to a dying person, I personally couldn't do that. As I said, integrity is important and if your word is worth nothing then what have you got.

[Are You Serious Jo]

Who is going to want to PTS a young dog? Who am I going to find to do that for me?

I would have never agreed to that. I wouldn't PTS a young healthy rehomeable dog, it is against my ethics.

That's your choice, I don't expect others to live by my rules, just as I expect that others don't impose their rules on me without my consent. Still interested to know how Mita would feel if her friend PTS her dogs but told her she wouldn't.

[mita]

No one is saying that everyone should be fine doing it, it's perfectly understandable that a lot of people couldn't do it. The thing I have issue with is lying and pretending that you would when you know you won't. That's deceitful, just say no rather than lie. I may be harsh as all buggery at times but integrity is important to me.

Yes, it's a case of situational ethics. And in the highly specified situation I described... the dog did 'go with the owner' by proxy.

Totally different case scenario if no already existing confidence in an available good home.

[mita]

I guess you have no problem lying to a dying person, I personally couldn't do that. As I said, integrity is important and if your word is worth nothing then what have you got.

As I said.... I said the dog 'would go with the owner' .... and it did, by proxy.

[Are You Serious Jo]

By proxy, please, if that's good enough then why not tell the owner that's what you intend doing? I think you know that a photo is not the same. The only time you can be confident is if the dog doesn't leave your care. You might kid yourself that you have done all you can do but you've been on DOL long enough to know there are no guarantees once a dog leaves your care. People take the cowards way out all the time and drop dogs off at the pound or advertise as FTGH. They are ashamed they can't keep the dog and take the easy way out rather than go back to the original owner. Breeders drum it into puppy buyers but they still don't want to lose face and go back to the breeder.

You are just kidding yourself by saying that a dog you rehome could never end up somewhere undesirable.

[mita]

[ Still interested to know how Mita would feel if her friend PTS her dogs but told her she wouldn't.

Is this another scenario? Am I supposed to be dead & someone PTS my dogs after saying she wouldn't?

[Are You Serious Jo]

Yes, that was the second time I asked you. How would you feel if a friend ignored your wishes and PTS your dogs, but assured you they would be looked after and rehomed?

[Dame Aussie]

It is a big ask to have someone PTS a very healthy young dog for someone though. Yes it is easy enough to say you will do it but to follow the action through takes a strong person.

I could never do it and I will never say to someone that I will do it for them. If they have a young dog that they wish PTS when they die and they asked me to do it I would say no. I would offer to rehome but not to PTS as there is no way I could PTS a healthy dog and live with myself. Sorry but not for me.

What if it stated that thy wanted you to arrange PTS in their will? You haven't said yes but it is now your responsibility.

If it was me, I would not promise to do it in the first place, I would tell the person honestly if I disagreed and why it would be hard for me. If the dog was elderly it wouldn't be as much of a problem.

If I was asked to in a will it would entirely depend on the circumstances, and quite honestly I'm not sure if I could do it, or if I could live with myself not doing it.

There are probably 5 people in my life who I would do anything for so in that case I would keep the dog myself so it wouldn't even be an issue.

Edited April 7, 2013 by Aussie3

[mita]

You are just kidding yourself by saying that a dog you rehome could never end up somewhere undesirable.

Point to where I said that a dog I rehomed could never end up somewhere undesirable?

Best we can do with anything that relates to the future is to minimize risk. And some considerable effort is made in that direction.

Certainly was in the case of the rehomed little dog I've cited. If anything less than that was not available, then a totally different scenario exists to make ethical decisions on.

[Are You Serious Jo]

You are just kidding yourself by saying that a dog you rehome could never end up somewhere undesirable.

Point to where I said that a dog I rehomed could never end up somewhere undesirable?

Best we can do with anything that relates to the future is to minimize risk. And some considerable effort is made in that direction.

Certainly was in the case of the rehomed little dog I've cited. If anything less than that was not available, then a totally different scenario exists to make ethical decisions on.

So you are admitting that the dog you rehome against the owners wishes could end up in a poor home? Which would be the exact reason the friend wanted the dog PTS, so that could never happen. If you rehome you are now admitting it could happen. Which was my point entirely. If I choose to make sure it can never happen then that's my choice, all risk is gone. But you don't have the right to decide how much risk is acceptable to you when it's someone else's dog. Not your choice to make.

I think it has to be really discussed if you want a dog to go with you Aussie, I don't think you can spring something like that on a friend.

[Guest donatella]

I would rather my dogs go to family or friends (with each other) then be PTS. But I know my dogs are very easily rehomeable and i'm not selfish enough to wish them an early death.

Edited April 7, 2013 by donatella

[Steve]

Basic human nature means that some people do things which they promised not to do if they think no one is watching or will catch them at it - especially when there is no accountability. The poor son is probably very sorry that he agreed to do this for his Mum but watching someone die and agreeing to do as they are begging you to do is pretty bloody powerful and its very difficult to deny them. Simply saying yes shows instant relief for them and they go to God with out the fear and worry. When I agreed to my friend's request I saw the degree of instant relief that washed over her and I've never felt bad about making her feel better and letting her go without that concern on her shoulders.

Now once you have made the promise you get choices some see things differently but you cant judge another person who did what they did in the belief they did the right thing - which ever way they go. For me if I make a promise I keep it - simple.

[Dame Aussie]

You are just kidding yourself by saying that a dog you rehome could never end up somewhere undesirable.

Point to where I said that a dog I rehomed could never end up somewhere undesirable?

Best we can do with anything that relates to the future is to minimize risk. And some considerable effort is made in that direction.

Certainly was in the case of the rehomed little dog I've cited. If anything less than that was not available, then a totally different scenario exists to make ethical decisions on.

So you are admitting that the dog you rehome against the owners wishes could end up in a poor home? Which would be the exact reason the friend wanted the dog PTS, so that could never happen. If you rehome you are now admitting it could happen. Which was my point entirely. If I choose to make sure it can never happen then that's my choice, all risk is gone. But you don't have the right to decide how much risk is acceptable to you when it's someone else's dog. Not your choice to make.

I think it has to be really discussed if you want a dog to go with you Aussie, I don't think you can spring something like that on a friend.

Oh yeah, definitely. This is assuming the person had come to me and asked me to put their dog down because they can't guarantee a good home, I would then do exactly that and the munchkin would be destined for spoildom :laugh:

[mita]

Yes, that was the second time I asked you. How would you feel if a friend ignored your wishes and PTS your dogs, but assured you they would be looked after and rehomed?

I have to click on your posts to show.... as I've had you on ignore for a long time. And I'd hope, you've also done the reverse.

Well, I'm dead in that scenario so I wouldn't be feeling anything personally.

Hypothetically, if given time before death to make my own arrangements, I'd follow the example of the elderly lady & see them into a new home.... based on risk minimization. If death came quickly & only permitted me to gasp out to a friend to rehome them as I thought it was in their best interest .... then it's over to them & their decision-making once I've gone. I'd be aware of that reality as I gasped it out.

It's a fair scenario to pose.... but academic in my case. I have family with strong feelings that the pets are all family, too. We organised that my late brother's two p/b blue heelers, one elderly, would be fine & safe after his long battle with cancee. He didn't even have to ask. It was a given.

Edited April 7, 2013 by mita

[mita]

[if you rehome you are now admitting it could happen.

It's a case of risk minimization versus dead ex-young, healthy dog.

And I've gone for risk minimization in a scenario where it was already known that a good home was confidently in the running. Different scenario entirely, if that's not so.

Edited April 7, 2013 by mita

[mita]

BThe poor son is probably very sorry that he agreed to do this for his Mum but watching someone die and agreeing to do as they are begging you to do is pretty bloody powerful and its very difficult to deny them.

I've already said the son was in a hard situation at a stressful time. And he made his decision. I have no quibble with someone making an ethical decision that might be different from mine.

Bring on the ethics classes, I say.

Edited April 7, 2013 by mita

[Steve]

BThe poor son is probably very sorry that he agreed to do this for his Mum but watching someone die and agreeing to do as they are begging you to do is pretty bloody powerful and its very difficult to deny them.

I've already said the son was in a hard situation at a stressful time. And he made his decision. I have no quibble with someone making an ethical decision that might be different from mine.

Bring on the ethics classes, I say.

I don't either but Id like to think if I have a death bed wish that the person I'm asking has the same base ethics that I do and they aren't just saying what they think I want to hear so if they say no I can try someone else.

[mita]

[

I don't either but Id like to think if I have a death bed wish that the person I'm asking has the same base ethics that I do and they aren't just saying what they think I want to hear so if they say no I can try someone else.

As I said.... I'm realistic & would be in my own case. And within the highly specific scenario I've set out. It's a case of situational ethics.

Edited April 7, 2013 by mita