Guidedog Pts...

[Brookestar]

It seems a waste of an guide dog, however as the owner of an animal, you have every right to request it be PTS.

This is a bit different though? A charity has invested tens of thousands training the dog. Like others, I would have thought that one of the conditions of getting a guide dog would be that you return it if you can't use it for its original purpose at any stage.

ETA: I have a dog that will be PTS when I die. This is because she has been abused in the fast and is very fearful (and can be FA) though, not because I have some notion that she'll never be happy with someone else. If I could guarantee her a home where she would be safely managed and her needs met I wouldn't be PTS.

Within Australia Guide Dogs are owned by the programs, and they are the only ones who can decide what happens to them. If they are reclassified or retired, then ownership can be transferred to someone else, but even then everyone who takes on any such dogs is required to sign a contract saying the dog will be returned to them should they be unable to care for it. Working Guide Dogs are retested at least annually and have twice annual vet check ups, which must be communicated directly to the program that trained the dogs. They will and have removed dogs from people who have not treated them properly. With up to $30,000 of donated money, they do not simply give someone a dog and hope they do the right thing, they make sure they do and retain ownership of the dog to ensure it represents the program properly. On retirement the program determines if the handler will be allowed to keep the dog, and then they hand over ownership of the dog. While working the dogs are effectively leased, albeit for free.

Within the US programs vary, some hand over ownership immediatley and do not want anything more to do with them, on retirement in some cases the dogs are just given to local shelters, pounds, animal control, etc. Other programs in the US do operate as they do in Australia, but ALL programs in Australia do operate with them retaining owerschip.

One should add those most upset about this are Guide Dog Users themselves who find it incredily offensive that someone could even request such a thing.

[persephone]

Brookestar...as I said , the info on owner training was posted on here ..I have no idea how accurate it is. :)

it is incredibly rare to owner train a Guide Dog.

it is rare, yes , but can be done ..there's no 'magic' to it . :)

I know several people who trained their own dogs ....they just couldn't be bothered with all the organisational stuff ... had dogs previously , and went ahead .

No doubt in places like the U.S, there are many who have selected a dog to suit, and raised/trained it to their own standard .

[Brookestar]

This is the interwebs Sheridan... hysteria and outcry appears to be the norm, remember?

T.

Hysteria be buggered. Outcry because some of us have a different moral compass than others and find it appalling and selfish that a young guide dog was put to sleep on the whim of his owner. To many arrogant dog owners think because of the bond they have with dogs, that they could not bond with another owner. Labradors are prime example of a breed that can very easily and successfully bond with a new owner, look at the standard for a Labrador, the temperament in particular.

Very true and also one of the reasons they are used as Guide Dogs. They readily transfer from one home to another and they have to. They are usually bred on campus, go to a puppy raiser, then back to kennels where they form an intense bond with the trainr, then the blind handler, where they form an intense bond with them. While labs miss people they adjust very quickly and quickly form new bonds, the same cannot be said for other breeds and they have immense difficulty training German Shepards for that reason, which are used to a very tiny degreee in the UK and US. They fret for the puppy raisers too much.

While many many dogs are returned to puppy raisers in Australia as they fail the grade, it sure as hell does not happen on the basis that they are simply fretting for the puppy raiser. They adjust very quickly. Sure some dogs cope better in the kennels than others and much research is now being done on that, but labradors are a very very adapable breed who form bonds quickly. Guide Dogs are also bred and raised to believe that everyone is their best friend, they have to be. How many dogs would cope with being led away from there handler while paramedics or the like worked on them, but it has to happen here. They cannot start to try and protect the handler, because they think they might be in danger, and of course the handler could well be screaming in pain.

[megan_]

The luxury a person diagnosed with a terminal illness has is that they are able to sort out all their affairs, so if they feel so strongly that they want their dog PTS, then they should do this as part of sorting out their affairs before they die, instead of putting this awful burden on a relative or friend. It seems these selfish people want the best of both worlds, they want their dog to be with them until they die and then place the awful burden on a relative or friend to be responsible for putting the poor dog down. If they care so much for their poor dog, then they would be there to hold it, cuddle it as it takes its last breath. Even if their illness prevents them leaving the house a Vet can do a house visit. Maybe if they had to take responsibility for organising their dog to be PTS and to be there with it, they may not be so willing it do it, particularly for a young, healthy dog with no behavioural problems.

I disagree strongly with PTS a young healthy happy dog who could adjust to a rehoming and bond with a new owner and live a very fulfilled life and if I was selfish enough to think this couldn't happen and I was diagnosed with a terminal illness, I would take care of this myself before I died rather than burden my family or friend with this awful task.

While I disagree with PTS a young healthy dog too, she couldn't do this in this scenario because she was blind and needed the dog as a guide dog.

The dog could very easily have found a new home, as either a Guide Dog to someone else, as a therapy dog for a young child, or simply as a well loved pet. Guide Dog Programs in Australia do it all the time, and have for over 50 years. Just because it was a Guide Dog, does not mean it could not be rehomed. Quite the contrary, more than most dogs, these dogs have already had mutliple homes, without issue. They are highly trained and socialised dogs and are very much sought after. Many programs have a 10 year + long waiting list to take on one of there dogs that are either reclassified or retired. The dog would not have been working as a Guide Dog, while she was in the final stages of life and would have worked for at least a few weeks. One does not use a Guide Dog, while hooked up to morphine drips in a hospital or pallative care unit. A person in the final stages of cancer is not out walking the streets one day and dead the next. It is a very slow and debilitating death.

As I previously said, I would never ever request a guide dog to be PTS. I never said the dog can't be rehomed. My point was addressing labradore's point that she should have taken care of getting the dog PTS before she died. She could only arrange this when well - not when out of it on a morphine drip. That would mean she couldn't walk around.

FWIW, some people do go from walking around one day with cancer to dead the next - it has happened to a close family friend.

Again, I don't agree with PTS a guide dog. The dog should go back to the association and rehomed or retired.

[Brookestar]

Brookestar...as I said , the info on owner training was posted on here ..I have no idea how accurate it is. :)

it is incredibly rare to owner train a Guide Dog.

it is rare, yes , but can be done ..there's no 'magic' to it . :)

I know several people who trained their own dogs ....they just couldn't be bothered with all the organisational stuff ... had dogs previously , and went ahead .

No doubt in places like the U.S, there are many who have selected a dog to suit, and raised/trained it to their own standard .

With Assistance Dogs i would believe, Guide Dogs, no and people do not choose their own standard!!! The Disability Discrimination Act details the minimum requirements and PROOF of TRAINING is required BY LAW. Love to see how they provide PROOF of TRAINING, what do they say, its trained because I said so. That sure as hell is not going to hold up in any court of law or in the human rights commission. The dogs would not be allowed on public transport or to travel on plains. In order to LEGALLY use a GUIDE dog, one has to be LEGALLY BLIND. There is LEGAL definition to blindness.

The blindness community is small and tight knit, and the Guide Dog community even more so. They know of ONE person who owner trained, with the help of a Guide Dog trainer out of hours, as they had multiple disabilities. They searched for months for the right breeder and went through more than one dog. You however claim to know SEVERAL such people, and that is something I really really doubt. As for being mentioned on here, I have reread these posts and can't find it. Why don't you write down the number of the post. And WHERE was the EVIDENCE that they got it from. The ONLY person claiming such a thing and also claiming it is COMMON to owner train Guide Dogs and that anyone can do it, is YOU. Of course if it is so easy to do, then why does the international Guide Dog Federation have such high standards and why will ALL assistnace Dog programs refuse to have anything to do with it, saying it is too difficult and there trainers do have the skills or qualifications required.

It is VERY easy to teach a dog to pass a public access test, it is very difficult to blindfold yourself and trust the dog to lead you across a road full of cars, through crowded side walks with overhanging branches, with loose dogs walking up to the dog, food on the floor, balls being thrown in front of them, on and off public transport, getting you to different places, etc. and yes, that is blindfolded, for over an hour. I would love to see you do it since you claim it is so easy to do, and that anyone can do it. Is it any wonder the government is tightening laws in relation to assistance dogs, when there are so many out of control, because people like you believe that you can train any dog by simply reading a book. It is only a matter of time before ALL such dogs are going to have to be accredited by government approved programs or trainers and at that time over half the dogs currently out there as Assistance Dogs will not make the grade, as most of the programs will not pass muster.

Am I passionate about this stuff, sure, my friends kid was bitten recently by one such dog in a large shopping centre. The dog is now on death row, due to an idiotic owner who claimed it was easy to train a dog and that any dog could do it, and a so called un accredited program who did not have any idea of how to do temperament or health checks, let alone why they are done, or how to truly assess behaviour of a dog in a public place. Anyone who saw the video survelliance of the dog could see the signs of stress on the dog, as well it having bad hips and so was in immense pain as well, and we all know dogs are pain are the ones most likely to bite. Everything about it was a time boomb waiting to explode, and the poor dog suffered due to it.

[Steve]

We had one case where an owner was blind and disabled as a result he wasnt eligible for a guide dog so he trained his own. He needed someone with eyes to go with him to the shops for a while to act as his eyes so he could know what the reactions of the dog were so Pacers helped find someone. In fact it was a dog Tapua bred.

Edited April 8, 2013 by Steve

[persephone]

Oops, sorry...

Edited April 8, 2013 by persephone

[persephone]

Brookestar .. No way did I say it is common to train one's own guide dog. It is rare ....

and no where did I mention that folks read a book, then trained their dog.

These were people who had guide dogs previously .... so had many years of experience , and knew what they required.

There is no 'magic' in training guide dogs.

I have not said once that is is 'easy to do ' The training is composite , and is done on a scale , takes a long time , and involves much blood sweat & tears.

trust the dog to lead you across a road full of cars, through crowded side walks with overhanging branches, with loose dogs walking up to the dog, food on the floor, balls being thrown in front of them, on and off public transport, getting you to different places, etc. and yes, that is blindfolded, for over an hour.

roadworks, shopping trolleys, and noisy manhole covers too :)

yes, I've been there done that ..as a final 'test' walk with all the dogs I trained ..It is such a BUZZ to feel that dog's every move as it looks around, wags that tail..or shifts weight to negotiate an obstacle ...and to know that now it reliable and is ready to place with a client ...

people do not choose their own standard!

The majority of folks don't, no, they rely on the excellent standards of the providing organisation.

However, there are patches of country where no one really cares if a dog guiding a vision impaired person has been trained in a big city ....or if the harness handles are home made ;) The dog does its job ... and that dog & their owner negotiate back roads & fields quite happily :)

Oh, and post #37 is where you'll find a mention of the dog being owner trained ..that's all I know :)

Edited April 8, 2013 by persephone

[megan_]

Assistance dogs have the same rights as guide dogs in Australia too.

There is no reason to scream. At no point did pers claim that it was easy to train a guide dog. She too has worked with guide dogs so knows a thing or two about them.

Edited April 8, 2013 by megan_

[persephone]

We had one case where an owner was blind and disabled as a result he wasnt eligible for a guide dog so he trained his own. He needed someone with eyes to go with him to the shops for a while to act as his eyes so he could know what the reactions of the dog were so Pacers helped find someone. In fact it was a dog Tapua bred.

Yep - independent mobility does not cme easy for so many people. .Glad that one worked out :)

[raz]

A person in the final stages of cancer is not out walking the streets one day and dead the next. It is a very slow and debilitating death.

Well I'll be. I did not realise that.

[labadore]

We had one case where an owner was blind and disabled as a result he wasnt eligible for a guide dog so he trained his own. He needed someone with eyes to go with him to the shops for a while to act as his eyes so he could know what the reactions of the dog were so Pacers helped find someone. In fact it was a dog Tapua bred.

Did this dog get accredited as an Assistance Dog or pass the Public Access Test?

[mantis]

A person in the final stages of cancer is not out walking the streets one day and dead the next. It is a very slow and debilitating death.

Well I'll be. I did not realise that.

Actually Brookestar is wrong, my friend was diagnosed with cancer which was so advanced & given her age, she couldn't have any medical treatment. They told her she had 6-9 months to live, she died eight days later.

[skelp2]

BTW, there is NO evidence that dogs understand the concept of death, they don't have the requisite cognitive capacities.

The concept of their own imminent death or that of an owner or another dog perhaps?

I would suspect that there is a huge amount of irrefutable evidence that dogs understand when an owner, or another animal that they live with, is dying or has died. Dogs do grieve, do they not?

As with any mammal in particular, they also understand when their own life is in danger and react accordingly, using the flight or fight response.

In regards to this particular situation, it is a shame that the son chose to follow his mother's wishes. People who know they are dying do not always make rational decisions, just as people who are not dying also can make stupid decisions. In my opinion, this woman's decision was not entirely different to people who choose to have a fairly young and healthy dog put down for other nefarious reasons.

[Are You Serious Jo]

BTW, there is NO evidence that dogs understand the concept of death, they don't have the requisite cognitive capacities.

The concept of their own imminent death or that of an owner or another dog perhaps?

I would suspect that there is a huge amount of irrefutable evidence that dogs understand when an owner, or another animal that they live with, is dying or has died. Dogs do grieve, do they not?

As with any mammal in particular, they also understand when their own life is in danger and react accordingly, using the flight or fight response.

In regards to this particular situation, it is a shame that the son chose to follow his mother's wishes. People who know they are dying do not always make rational decisions, just as people who are not dying also can make stupid decisions. In my opinion, this woman's decision was not entirely different to people who choose to have a fairly young and healthy dog put down for other nefarious reasons.

They get cues that something is different but they don't understand that in the future my owner will die and I'll never see them again. Some go through periods where they behave as though they are grieving, but it's not the same grieving we do. When the fight or flight adrenal response occurs it's instinctive, it's not a cognitive process, it's hard wired. Dogs don't have theory of mind or meta-representation (yes, evidence for that) so they cannot understand that things will be different in the future and mourn that, they live in the now.

[Dame Aussie]

BTW, there is NO evidence that dogs understand the concept of death, they don't have the requisite cognitive capacities.

The concept of their own imminent death or that of an owner or another dog perhaps?

I would suspect that there is a huge amount of irrefutable evidence that dogs understand when an owner, or another animal that they live with, is dying or has died. Dogs do grieve, do they not?

As with any mammal in particular, they also understand when their own life is in danger and react accordingly, using the flight or fight response.

In regards to this particular situation, it is a shame that the son chose to follow his mother's wishes. People who know they are dying do not always make rational decisions, just as people who are not dying also can make stupid decisions. In my opinion, this woman's decision was not entirely different to people who choose to have a fairly young and healthy dog put down for other nefarious reasons.

They get cues that something is different but they don't understand that in the future my owner will die and I'll never see them again. Some go through periods where they behave as though they are grieving, but it's not the same grieving we do. When the fight or flight adrenal response occurs it's instinctive, it's not a cognitive process, it's hard wired. Dogs don't have theory of mind or meta-representation (yes, evidence for that) so they cannot understand that things will be different in the future and mourn that, they live in the now.

Which is what I love about them :)

[Are You Serious Jo]

Yes, dogs are awesome and they don't need any anthropomorphic projections to make them special, they are already

[persephone]

BTW, there is NO evidence that dogs understand the concept of death, they don't have the requisite cognitive capacities.

The concept of their own imminent death or that of an owner or another dog perhaps?

I would suspect that there is a huge amount of irrefutable evidence that dogs understand when an owner, or another animal that they live with, is dying or has died. Dogs do grieve, do they not?

As with any mammal in particular, they also understand when their own life is in danger and react accordingly, using the flight or fight response.

In regards to this particular situation, it is a shame that the son chose to follow his mother's wishes. People who know they are dying do not always make rational decisions, just as people who are not dying also can make stupid decisions. In my opinion, this woman's decision was not entirely different to people who choose to have a fairly young and healthy dog put down for other nefarious reasons.

They get cues that something is different but they don't understand that in the future my owner will die and I'll never see them again. Some go through periods where they behave as though they are grieving, but it's not the same grieving we do. When the fight or flight adrenal response occurs it's instinctive, it's not a cognitive process, it's hard wired. Dogs don't have theory of mind or meta-representation (yes, evidence for that) so they cannot understand that things will be different in the future and mourn that, they live in the now.

Which is what I love about them :)

and how I wish I could live :)

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<h3 style="margin: 0px; padding: 4px; font-size: 1.1em; color: rgb(58, 79, 108); background-color: rgb(228, 234, 242); font-family: verdana, tahoma, arial, sans-serif;">Reverend Jo

Posted 09 April 2013 - 11:42 AM

Yes, dogs are awesome and they don't need any anthropomorphic projections to make them special, they are already

[Dame Aussie]

Oh I know, it would be wonderful! No wonder they're such happy chappies :)

[Little Gifts]

A person in the final stages of cancer is not out walking the streets one day and dead the next. It is a very slow and debilitating death.

Well I'll be. I did not realise that.

Actually Brookestar is wrong, my friend was diagnosed with cancer which was so advanced & given her age, she couldn't have any medical treatment. They told her she had 6-9 months to live, she died eight days later.

My 23 year old SIL went in to hospital for severe morning sickness. On her second day in there she started to get mentally confused. Less than a week later she was dead from brain tumours without even knowing what was happening to her. There were about 30 in there the day of her death. Her cat was lovingly cared for by her mother even though there was no opportunity for discussions with her about her final wishes due to her mental capacity. At her young age, newly married and newly pregnant, death was the last thing on her mind.