The Doll Used In The Dog Temperament Test ?

[Christina]

Watching them use this on RSPCA animal rescue tonight & thought wouldn't the dogs know this was not a child as it doesn't smell like a person ?

Is it an accurate representation of how a dog would be with children ?

Could the dog think it was merely a big toy or strange object ?

It looks like a human but it doesn't smell like one

Dogs react according to what they smell, a lot.

The doll would smell like a doll wouldn't it ?

[bamboo]

My dog would be dead if he had to react positively to that strange giant doll. His first rrsponse to an unknown object like that coming towards him would be anxiety or possibly barking and growling. Given the opportunity to examine it he would settle. He loves children and happily sits and allows them to surround him and pat him when picking up his most loved person, my nine year old daughter from school. He is leashed and sitting next to me so I can closely supervise the interaction. Ridiculous test.

[persephone]

Our dogs would probably growl at that thing ....... it is nothing like a child, really ....

[tiff-689]

I thought exactly the same thing when I saw that segment tonight. My dog would instantly fail! I hope they do more testing before they decide if a dog is capable of being rehomed.

[melzawelza]

I thought exactly the same thing when I saw that segment tonight. My dog would instantly fail! I hope they do more testing before they decide if a dog is capable of being rehomed.

Pretty sure the answer is no, considering they kill 40% of unreclaimed dogs every year for 'behavioral' reasons.

[Simply Grand]

Yes, I thought it was weird too. The doll was a bit creepy. I really don't think my dogs would react to it as they would to a human child. Riley would warily move away from both the doll and an actual child I suspect. He wouldn't be aggressive towards them though. However, they obviously can't use a human toddler in the test.

[sas]

It's stupid, it assumes a dog is stupid and does not understand that a giant doll is not a human child. I wouldn't be concerned at what the Border Collie x did, she backed away, she retreated - exactly what you'd want a dog to do if unsure....she didn't fear bite. I think it's appalling that the RSPCA don't allow a dog to show its scared.

The whole show pissed me off to tell you the truth, making out as though the pig dogs could be dangerous to people. A pig dog would be dead if it even thought about growling at its hunter. They are bred to do a specific job, and since when does animal aggression relate to human aggression, within our rescue we see a number of Dane x's either bred for hunting or used as hunting....not one we've had an issue with. We've also had a number of purebred Danes need rehoming because they've killed livestock and never a problem in a typical family setting - RSPCA just set everything back 10 more steps - don't expect anything better from them...I wish people would stop giving them money.

Edited April 5, 2013 by sas

[Marion 01]

Was not impressed to see the doll used as a supposed child. Not fair at all to the dog. Mine would freak out at the doll too, and they are ok with kids.

[Cosmolo]

This test should be used as an indicator of intensity and response to novelty- nothing more nothing less. I have never failed a dog based on this test alone (and i have assessed many hundreds, maybe thousands of dogs) but have used it as a guide in combination with other tests to place dogs appropriately.

Not everyone using tests like this does it as an excuse to fail dogs and euthanase them. Of course the dog should be able to show avoidance. The only response that concerns me is serious predatory behaviour and this shows up in other areas of our testing as well if it's an issue.

Yet another example of how behavioural assessment can be abused.

[Salukifan]

Seems to me there's a lot of misunderstanding about the test. I suggest most of the misunderstanding comes from those who have never seen the doll used beyond a very quick TV segment.

I suspect at least one of mine would probably cock his leg on it.

Edited April 4, 2013 by Haredown Whippets

[Clyde]

It's stupid, it assumes a dog is stupid and does not understand that a giant dog is not a human child. I wouldn't be concerned at what the Border Collie x did, she backed away, she retreated - exactly what you'd want a dog to do if unsure....she didn't fear bite. I think it's appalling that the RSPCA don't allow a dog to show its scared.

The whole show pissed me off to tell you the truth, making out as though the pig dogs could be dangerous to people. A pig dog would be dead if it even thought about growling at its hunter.

Completely agree. Not one of my dogs would have passed that test last night. Even the Pug would have growled and ran from that doll and he is bomb proof with children, real ones.

The chained dog allowed a stranger to walk up to him and pat him on his territory - I was pretty impressed with the temp. They really made a big deal about the fleas - and their weights weren't anything truly shocking either. Living conditions weren't great but I felt they (RSPCA) really bunged it on.

[corvus]

I believe there is actually research that suggests a dog that is likely to be aggressive towards a child is also likely to be aggressive towards the doll. It's the same with the dog dolls used to test what a potentially dog-aggressive dog would do if it was allowed to have its way with another dog. Grisha Stewart has some great videos of dogs meeting life sized dog dolls. She showed one at the APDT conference last year of a dog that saw the dog doll from 10m away, then ran straight up to it, shoved it over, and started ripping into its belly. It DID NOT bother checking if it was a real dog.

There is an easy explanation for this. If a dog has a negative association with a particular thing, they don't need all the related stimuli to decide how to treat it. The more they dislike it the fewer stimuli they will use to identify it. This is completely adaptive. It's a high road vs low road of the brain thing. If you recognise something that could potentially be dangerous you react first and gather more information on what it is later. As such, if a dog goes for the doll, that may indicate a pretty strong negative association with kids. If the dog doesn't go for the doll, that doesn't really mean it wouldn't go for a kid. Ideally there would be other exposures to novelty in a behavioural assessment to compare the reaction to the doll, but I don't think it would be hard to distinguish between a reaction to a novel item and aggression towards something that looked like a kid. If the dog is reacting to the doll because it looks like a kid, the reaction is fast because there is limited processing of the stimulus. Reactions to novelty are usually more hesitant. Usually. Or at least a pause while the dog is going "Do I know what that is?" I didn't see the show in question, but there are potentially confounding effects in how the doll is presented.

[Salukifan]

The whole show pissed me off to tell you the truth, making out as though the pig dogs could be dangerous to people. A pig dog would be dead if it even thought about growling at its hunter. They are bred to do a specific job, and since when does animal aggression relate to human aggression, within our rescue we see a number of Dane x's either bred for hunting or used as hunting....not one we've had an issue with.

Animal aggression can become human aggression if the dogs consider the human as prey.

It can happen. It has happened. Who can forget this one:

Death of Tyra Kuehne

When not well socialised and used for this kind of hunting, dogs may confuse children with prey. I know that many pig hunting dogs are family dogs but the assumption that all such dogs are safe with children could be a dangerous one.

Edited April 4, 2013 by Haredown Whippets

[megan_]

There has been research that shows that DA dogs will attack a toy that has the same outline of a dog (not a small, squeaky toy like in the shops). There are some videos on Youtube apparently demonstrating this. It provides a safe way to test if a dog is DA without risking the life of the decoy dog.

sas - a good pig dog shouldn't be HA, but some yobbo's pig dogs just might be

[Rosetta]

I just tried that test with my little placid poodle. Used by daughter's large doll similar to the one in the show. He ran away :D

This is the softest, gentlest little dog you would ever meet - no worries about kids patting him whilst out and about. So no I don't believe that test is fair to the dog at all - especially in that environment.

[kiesha09]

My girl would love the doll but she really doesn't like children at all so I wouldn't rely on a test like that in isolation at all.

Having said that I think when you look at the responses to ALL the tests you can get a pretty good overall picture of the dogs temperament.

[sas]

Seems to me there's a lot of misunderstanding about the test. I suggest most of the misunderstanding comes from those who have never seen the doll used beyond a very quick TV segment.

I suspect at least one of mine would probably cock his leg on it.

No, I'm saying it's stupid from logical point of view and from direct experience. The RSPCA staff member made a big deal about the dog not being ok with the doll and that it would have to be euthanized if not safe with children.....stupid.

Edited April 5, 2013 by sas

[sas]

The whole show pissed me off to tell you the truth, making out as though the pig dogs could be dangerous to people. A pig dog would be dead if it even thought about growling at its hunter. They are bred to do a specific job, and since when does animal aggression relate to human aggression, within our rescue we see a number of Dane x's either bred for hunting or used as hunting....not one we've had an issue with.

Animal aggression can become human aggression if the dogs consider the human as prey.

It can happen. It has happened. Who can forget this one:

Death of Tyra Kuehne

When not well socialised and used for this kind of hunting, dogs may confuse children with prey. I know that many pig hunting dogs are family dogs but the assumption that all such dogs are safe with children could be a dangerous one.

I'm not talking about in the sense of prey at all. I'm not saying 'ALL' either.

[sas]

There has been research that shows that DA dogs will attack a toy that has the same outline of a dog (not a small, squeaky toy like in the shops). There are some videos on Youtube apparently demonstrating this. It provides a safe way to test if a dog is DA without risking the life of the decoy dog.

sas - a good pig dog shouldn't be HA, but some yobbo's pig dogs just might be

I'm very familiar with pig dogs, I grew up in the country and have direct experience with them and can make an educated comment unlike a number of people here who love to jump to conclusions that suit them (not saying you).

I haven't made any comments about DA dogs. I'm simply stating that just because a dog is a pig dog doesn't mean it will maul a child.

Edited April 5, 2013 by sas

[megan_]

I just tried that test with my little placid poodle. Used by daughter's large doll similar to the one in the show. He ran away :D

This is the softest, gentlest little dog you would ever meet - no worries about kids patting him whilst out and about. So no I don't believe that test is fair to the dog at all - especially in that environment.

But, in all fairness, you haven't run the test under test conditions. You know the dog and it knows you. The dog has seen the doll before?

you can't assess the validity of a test on one test case.