Breeding And Rescuing

[Her Majesty Dogmad]

I'd take a guess that some breeders' dogs suffer ailments that don't get attended to - either in a timely manner or at all - because no one notices those little changes in behaviour perhaps that in a normal home, would be spotted much earlier or perhaps they just don't want to spend the money on vet bills for a dog that won't be useful for anything in a year or two.

of course we all know a person buying a dog from a rescue/shelter/pound would never ever be guilty of any of the above.

Now you are changing the subject but of course you are right, there are plenty of people out there who neglect their pets otherwise rescue wouldn't be so busy and there wouldn't be so many dogs euthanased.

I have plenty of experience of undesexed females and males interacting with other dogs.

you changed the subject by deciding to have a crack at breeders, not me. And you wonder why some breeders won't work with rescue.

I wouldn't work with you whether you were a breeder or a rescuer, you are always belligerent.

Edited April 4, 2013 by dogmad

[Sheridan]

I was refused adoption on the grounds that I had an undesexed show dog. This was at a popular shelter. I found it incredible.

That's the policy of a number of rescue groups and done with the best of intentions. It can't be one rule for one and one for another. Whilst your showdog may be beautifully behaved, any undesexed male/female purebred/crossbred may not welcome a male/female friend and an owner may not be experienced enough to spot signs of problems.

I suggest that a show dog is far more likely to get along with other dogs because a dog who doesn't in the show ring is unlikely to be in the show ring for long.

Given the choice, I will not rehome to this situation either.

Your choice of course but you are potentially removing a good and experienced home for a reason that doesn't make much sense.

Some breeders are good, others are not - this goes for rescuers too.

I have issues with breeders who won't take their own dogs back and leave it to rescue to sort it out or leave them in the pound because the pound has a desexing policy. I have issues with those that breed vast quantities of animals and don't enrich the quality of the lives their breeding dogs have and just breed from them every single season until they are worn out.

I'd take a guess that some breeders' dogs suffer ailments that don't get attended to - either in a timely manner or at all - because no one notices those little changes in behaviour perhaps that in a normal home, would be spotted much earlier or perhaps they just don't want to spend the money on vet bills for a dog that won't be useful for anything in a year or two.

I also have issues with breeders that don't do good rehomings - ie an expensive purebred puppy going into a loft apartment with 2 owners who work fulltime and then have things on after work ... or a long lived breed puppy going to owners in their mid 70s, or a puppy being flown to a home with no fencing whose previous 3 dogs died on the road. Those are just a few examples, wouldn't want to bore anyone.

I have issues with breeders that don't take back their dogs in the same way I have issues with a rescue refusing a breeder who has bred a dog or a breed rescue to take a dog because a general rescue thinks they know better than people experienced with a breed.

I have issues with anyone who doesn't treat a dog. I have issues with anyone who doesn't do a good rehomimg and I suspect this happens with rescues far more often than it does with registered breeders. You can rant all you like about breeders but I think yours is aimed more at BYB rather than those who inhabit DOL and if so, it might be helpful if you differentiate between the two.

Edited April 4, 2013 by Sheridan

[Her Majesty Dogmad]

Sheridan, actually in the cases I referred to, they were registered breeders BUT I use the word "some" because it does not mean the same as all and as I said, there are good breeders too, of course there are. I am not mixing up back yard breeders with registered breeders. BYBs are a major issue, I don't believe that of registered breeders at all. As someone said, if nobody bred purebred dogs, where would we be? I own a purebred dog currently and have owned several purebreds. I will continue wanting to own certain purebreds because I like them and see nothing wrong with getting a purebred dog from a breeder or a breed rescue. In fact I would prefer if everyone did it so that the petshops/internet sales of crossbreeds would disappear ...

I have issues with rescues who rehome dogs that have killed or mauled other dogs without provocation, I have issues with the rescues that get a dog out the pound and rehome it the next day without even properly assessing the dog or those rescues that don't do all the vet work needed but pass the dog on with a mouth full of bad teeth, those that don't do homechecks or any other kind of checks, no quarantine. There are many one person rescuers mushrooming up from nowhere and the experienced rescuers are very concerned about it. Perhaps it is because there is a perception that there is money to be made or perhaps looking at the positive, they can see too many dogs not getting rescued?

If a person is a very experienced dog handler then that would be a case for reconsidering the desexed/undesexed mix but generally the enquiries I receive are not like that.

[Rebanne]

I'd take a guess that some breeders' dogs suffer ailments that don't get attended to - either in a timely manner or at all - because no one notices those little changes in behaviour perhaps that in a normal home, would be spotted much earlier or perhaps they just don't want to spend the money on vet bills for a dog that won't be useful for anything in a year or two.

of course we all know a person buying a dog from a rescue/shelter/pound would never ever be guilty of any of the above.

Now you are changing the subject but of course you are right, there are plenty of people out there who neglect their pets otherwise rescue wouldn't be so busy and there wouldn't be so many dogs euthanased.

I have plenty of experience of undesexed females and males interacting with other dogs.

you changed the subject by deciding to have a crack at breeders, not me. And you wonder why some breeders won't work with rescue.

I wouldn't work with you whether you were a breeder or a rescuer, you are always belligerent.

[Sheridan]

Sheridan, actually in the cases I referred to, they were registered breeders BUT I use the word "some" because it does not mean the same as all and as I said, there are good breeders too, of course there are. I am not mixing up back yard breeders with registered breeders. BYBs are a major issue, I don't believe that of registered breeders at all. As someone said, if nobody bred purebred dogs, where would we be? I own a purebred dog currently and have owned several purebreds. I will continue wanting to own certain purebreds because I like them and see nothing wrong with getting a purebred dog from a breeder or a breed rescue. In fact I would prefer if everyone did it so that the petshops/internet sales of crossbreeds would disappear ...

I have issues with rescues who rehome dogs that have killed or mauled other dogs without provocation, I have issues with the rescues that get a dog out the pound and rehome it the next day without even properly assessing the dog or those rescues that don't do all the vet work needed but pass the dog on with a mouth full of bad teeth, those that don't do homechecks or any other kind of checks, no quarantine. There are many one person rescuers mushrooming up from nowhere and the experienced rescuers are very concerned about it. Perhaps it is because there is a perception that there is money to be made or perhaps looking at the positive, they can see too many dogs not getting rescued?

If a person is a very experienced dog handler then that would be a case for reconsidering the desexed/undesexed mix but generally the enquiries I receive are not like that.

Perhaps the people you get are not experienced dog handlers but I'd suggest that some who apply for dogs in rescue are. A blanket no seems counterproductive to rehoming.

Edited April 4, 2013 by Sheridan

[tdierikx]

There are good and bad dog owners on both sides of this debate, but I really don't think either side has any particular monopoly of either the "good" or the "bad".

To make any blanket statement about either group's "failings" is a bit presumptuous...

I don't see why a showie with an intact dog is a less desirable home than anyone else - and in most cases, that would be an ideal home for any dog IMHO.

T.

[Diva]

I have issues with the rescues that get a dog out the pound and rehome it the next day without even properly assessing the dog or those rescues that don't do all the vet work needed but pass the dog on with a mouth full of bad teeth, those that don't do homechecks or any other kind of checks, no quarantine.

Rescue and quarantine??

I remember a couple of years ago, 2010 I think.

Local pound, DAS, was in parvo lock down for weeks.

Supposedly reputable rescue took 2 dogs out of there the very day they came out of parvo virus lockdown, and put them on PUBLIC transport without going through any quarantine.

No quaratine first , straight out onto a plane.

So yeah, some very irresponsible, even hypocritical, things happen on both sides eh.

Only need to read dol to see that.

Edited April 4, 2013 by Diva

[WreckitWhippet]

What's the big deal if the rescue dog is desexed and the resident dog is entire. Never the two shall breed.

[Her Majesty Dogmad]

What's the big deal if the rescue dog is desexed and the resident dog is entire. Never the two shall breed.

It's not about breeding, it's about behaviours of both the desexed and undesexed dog in that situation.

[Sheridan]

What's the big deal if the rescue dog is desexed and the resident dog is entire. Never the two shall breed.

It's not about breeding, it's about behaviours of both the desexed and undesexed dog in that situation.

And again, a show dog is far more used to other dogs than the average.

[minimax]

What's the big deal if the rescue dog is desexed and the resident dog is entire. Never the two shall breed.

It's not about breeding, it's about behaviours of both the desexed and undesexed dog in that situation.

And again, a show dog is far more used to other dogs than the average.

But the rescue might not be

edit: not saying I agree, just trying to see both sides

Edited April 4, 2013 by minimax

[WreckitWhippet]

What's the big deal if the rescue dog is desexed and the resident dog is entire. Never the two shall breed.

It's not about breeding, it's about behaviours of both the desexed and undesexed dog in that situation.

You make out like entire animals are monsters.

Desexing is not a cure all for aggression or any other form of bad behaviour... training is

[Diva]

In fact, studies have shown that the effect of desexing on aggressive females can be to increase aggression due to the loss of the influence of the female hormones.

[Steve]

I dont think you can blame some people for being concerned that if someone is breeding that they may take a rescue dog and use it to breed with. Fact is this happens and I personally know many examples of this - though some rescue groups who maintain they dont breed do this as well. I know this as a fact not gossip or suspicion.

But, to make statements that breeders shouldn't rescue because they breed and are therefore part of the problem makes no sense to me and it steps into the world of the crazies.

Im happy for any rescue person or group to have their own policies that fit them whether I agree with those policies or how they came to have those policies or not - as long as those policies are out there for anyone applying for a dog , taking a dog, handing over a dog or volunteering or donating to see. If Dogmad's policy is that she wont rehome a desexed dog to a home with an entire dog and everyone can see that before they apply if they have an entire dog they dont apply or if they do it simple - its Dogmad's policy - its not personal and it doesn't change depending on who you are.

Some rescue groups have a policy that they wont return a dog or a dog which is entire to a breeder - then they don't need to worry about determining whether its a good breeder or a bad breeder and any decisions which are made are policy not personal. The rescue doesn't have to stress over making a new decision each time, they don't have to argue the point and the breeder can be mad at the policy or the group but cant take it personally as a slight against them over any other breeder.

If a person or group has a policy of sometimes breeding the dogs they "rescue" then that too should be out in the open for everyone to see so they know this - and that way everyone can know its not a pup that's mum has been rescued pregnant but rather a dog that the rescue has made a decision to breed after they have purchased it to rescue it or after they have saved it from some other source. Anyone being involved in any way can therefore decide if that fits with what they feel is an acceptable thing. A rescue group which produces over 250 puppies a year from dogs they have rescued and deliberately mate to pretend that they have rescued the dogs pregnant - who takes donations as a charity is seen as more qualified to rescue dogs that some one who is known to be a breeder because they are part of the problem????? Give me a break.

[Salukifan]

What's the big deal if the rescue dog is desexed and the resident dog is entire. Never the two shall breed.

It's not about breeding, it's about behaviours of both the desexed and undesexed dog in that situation.

You make out like entire animals are monsters.

Desexing is not a cure all for aggression or any other form of bad behaviour... training is

We went through this when the ACT was establishing its first dog parks. Initial proposal was no entire dogs allowed. After a discussion, the position was changed.

If you rescue a dog from the pound, you can place any conditions you like on its rehoming as far as I'm concerned. However when dogs are deprived of good homes due to ignorance or prejudice, that's hardly a good result for the dogs is it? And if the rescue is desexing, where's the breeding risk there?

Lots of misunderstanding about breeders, some of it fuelled by the less reputable amongst our ranks. Both breeders and rescues tend to be judged by the worst behaviour of each.

Edited April 4, 2013 by Haredown Whippets

[Sheridan]

What's the big deal if the rescue dog is desexed and the resident dog is entire. Never the two shall breed.

It's not about breeding, it's about behaviours of both the desexed and undesexed dog in that situation.

And again, a show dog is far more used to other dogs than the average.

But the rescue might not be

edit: not saying I agree, just trying to see both sides

blackjaq said she was refused a rescue because she had an entire showdog.

[Sheridan]

We went through this when the ACT was establishing its first dog parks. Initial proposal was no entire dogs allowed. After a discussion, the position was changed.

If you rescue a dog from the pound, you can place any conditions you like on its rehoming as far as I'm concerned. However when dogs are deprived of good homes due to ignorance or prejudice, that's hardly a good result for the dogs is it? And if the rescue is desexing, where's the breeding risk there?

Lots of misunderstanding about breeders, some of it fuelled by the less reputable amongst our ranks. Both breeders and rescues tend to be judged by the worst behaviour of each.

I'd like to know how they planned to police that one.

[minimax]

What's the big deal if the rescue dog is desexed and the resident dog is entire. Never the two shall breed.

It's not about breeding, it's about behaviours of both the desexed and undesexed dog in that situation.

And again, a show dog is far more used to other dogs than the average.

But the rescue might not be

edit: not saying I agree, just trying to see both sides

blackjaq said she was refused a rescue because she had an entire showdog.

I know, but I'm saying the rescue dog might be the one that doesn't get along with an entire dog, not the other way around.

I don't understand the logic, to me it seems to be along the lines of having a blanket rule of not letting people have a rescue dog if they work out of house - but people run rescues as they see fit, and probably have the rules they do because they've had issues in the past.

[Sheridan]

What's the big deal if the rescue dog is desexed and the resident dog is entire. Never the two shall breed.

It's not about breeding, it's about behaviours of both the desexed and undesexed dog in that situation.

And again, a show dog is far more used to other dogs than the average.

But the rescue might not be

edit: not saying I agree, just trying to see both sides

blackjaq said she was refused a rescue because she had an entire showdog.

I know, but I'm saying the rescue dog might be the one that doesn't get along with an entire dog, not the other way around.

I don't understand the logic, to me it seems to be along the lines of having a blanket rule of not letting people have a rescue dog if they work out of house - but people run rescues as they see fit, and probably have the rules they do because they've had issues in the past.

Surely if the issue was the dog applied for the rescue should have said, 'Sorry, needs to be an only dog.'

[Salukifan]

We went through this when the ACT was establishing its first dog parks. Initial proposal was no entire dogs allowed. After a discussion, the position was changed.

If you rescue a dog from the pound, you can place any conditions you like on its rehoming as far as I'm concerned. However when dogs are deprived of good homes due to ignorance or prejudice, that's hardly a good result for the dogs is it? And if the rescue is desexing, where's the breeding risk there?

Lots of misunderstanding about breeders, some of it fuelled by the less reputable amongst our ranks. Both breeders and rescues tend to be judged by the worst behaviour of each.

I'd like to know how they planned to police that one.

The same way they police dog registrations in dogs that frequent the parks - not at all.