Hounder Posted March 29, 2013 Share Posted March 29, 2013 Yesterday was a roller coaster of a day. From our observation we estimated that Thursday would be day 8 of our bitchs' season and booked in to have prog tests to be done that day and the Saturday. We had also booked in a tentative AI for Thursday arfo pending on results. Got a call within a couple of hours with a result of 137, the vet saying that she had already ovulated but to do the AI. I had also arranged for another breeder to assist with AIs over the Easter break and when I told them the results they said don't waste your money as it was all over. I was really disappointed and depressed all afternoon thinking we had yet again missed the boat. We took the dogs to our vet for ?AI later that day and told him we were probably wasting his time and our money. He said bring her in and we will do a smear and see what's happening. The cytology showed that she hadn't ovulated yet so we did the AI and will do another on Saturday. We now have a glimmer of hope :D My question is, which is most accurate, progesterone or cytology? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
angelsun Posted March 29, 2013 Share Posted March 29, 2013 For me, progesterone..never trusted cytology to be accurate and in fact, many of my past vets have said that they also use it ONLY as a tool to back up the progesterone because of how the cells show. Usually when you get the cell shape you want, it's too late (for frozen or chilled AI) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
espinay2 Posted March 29, 2013 Share Posted March 29, 2013 In this situation, IMO neither will be accurate as you only have one of each. Both methods work best IMO used hand in hand and both work best if you have a series of tests/smears to see the progression of what is going on. What did the vet see in the smear to make him think she had not yet ovulated? (was she cornified? parabasals? ). Smears can not be used to pinpoint ovulation until after the fact (see Phillis Holst's book on 'Canine Reproduction') and no one can look at an isolated smear and tell when a bitch is going to ovulate. On day of ovulation, cells will have been cornified for on average 6 days and will continue to be for about another 5 days. So smears basically give you a 'window of opportunity' but not pinpoint accuracy. Regarding the prog test, did you retest to see if you got a false reading? Was it a laboratory error or did she ovulate early? Do you know what her usual cycle is and when she usually ovulates? (some go early and until I know a bitches cycle I start testing on day 4 or earlier and for every three days until she starts to rise (which is generally a good indication the LH surge is also happening) - then every day until ovulation occurs). Some bitches will rise fairly high and quickly afte rthey ovulate and some dont go as high and it is generally not how high they go, but the point at which they reach 5 nmol/L (you wil need to convert that to nanagrams if that is what you are using - generally around 10-15) that is important as that is when they ovulate. From there, fertilisation occurs 3 to 4 days later so after ovulation you have a little 'breathing space'. It is the point of ovulation that is important for calculations though, not generally what happens afterwards. Sometimes cysts can be responsible for higher than normal prog tests as well, so if you are concerned that her high prog result is not 'normal', (though from one test you can't really say) you may want to check this with a repro specialist as often dealing with the cyst can put the progesterone back in balance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hounder Posted March 29, 2013 Author Share Posted March 29, 2013 That is what our vet said, as in, you can't go by one test. The vet at the other clinic where we got the test done cancelled the appt for tomorrow based on the reading. Our vet did not go into specifics as what was actually on the smear apart from there being no neutrophils but we did notice that on the swab there was still a bit of red blood. We will be getting another smear done tomorrow to see if any changes or progressions. This AI business is a tricky business "sigh" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
espinay2 Posted March 29, 2013 Share Posted March 29, 2013 If you are doing frozen AI, you have to be much more accurate and progesterone is going to be Important. I might consider not risking it this time around if I only had 1 prog reading like that and plan on testing early and frequently from day one or two next time around. JMHO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zoiboy Posted March 29, 2013 Share Posted March 29, 2013 I agree with Espinay here. I could not begin to explain it as well tho :) I have had 2 AI litter's and both times we did a surgical AI when the Prog reading was 22nmol/L (ish). Worked well for us and the first litter was 8 happy healthy baby's, second was 7 happy healthy baby's. Getting to know the bitches cycle is the most important part of the whole thing and the first litter we started testing at day 4. The second litter we started testing at day 7 as we had a much better handle on how her system worked. This was all done by a specialist tho as the GP vets just do not get a chance to get a really good working knowlage on AI's Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hounder Posted March 29, 2013 Author Share Posted March 29, 2013 We are doing fresh AI's. My main worry is if we need to do another say Monday when the vets are closed. I'm just praying we haven't missed it. It is all a learning curve. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hounder Posted March 30, 2013 Author Share Posted March 30, 2013 According to cytology she ovulated yesterday with a few neutrophils being present. If this is correct it means we inseminated the day before and the day after. Fingers crossed :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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