Is The Poodle Not A Gun Dog ?

[Pjrt]

I'm wondering if anyone can clarify the history of why on earth the Poodle, especially the Standard Poodle ended up not in the gun dog group? Is there a logical explanation of why a gun dog is not in the gun dog group. Golly it's even shown in it's 'working' clip. To me it is clearly a gun dog??

The way I see it the toy & mini were developed as companion size Poodles, although I have known a couple of minis competent under a gun. Why are the smaller sizes not left in 7 or moved to 1 and the Standard Poodle not in the gun dogs??

Like I said in my opening question, is there any history for the decision to keep them all together in a group that so clearly does not fit the 'standard' original Poodle that was clearly bred as a gun dog?

And are they shown in the gun dog group anywhere in the world?

[LizT]

I would hazard at a guess that is has everything to do with the fact that they are available in three sizes and the smaller two are the more commonly seen, more known as Pets than working types these days. Not that a poodle wouldn't be an excellent gun dog as that was it's origin but purpose has evolved and in order to keep the breed in the one ring it has been placed in Non Sporting. Pity.

For that matter I would have liked to see a Cavalier King Charles Spaniel in the gundog ring, if an American Cocker is so could they BUT they are renowned as comforter lapdogs, although as Spaniels they would train up beautifully to retrieve small game. ;)

[Pjrt]

see I thought the whole idea of the groupings was to put dogs together that share similarities in their original purpose.

Surely the grouping of the 'standard' version of breeds with size variation should be placed in the appropriate group. If the miniaturised or giantised versions of those breeds were developed for the same purpose as the original 'standard' version, then yes, they should all be in the correct group together, but if the size variation were developed purely as companion dogs, then they should be in a group reflecting that.

As far as I know the CKCS was never bred for any purpose other than as a companion and were never used as a gun dog, always seen as a 'toy spaniel' so should remain in the toy group.

Actually I would like to see group 7 renamed or disbanded and groups added & altered. How about a Companion Dog group to combine much of the toy group and some of the Non Sporting group. A Spitz group, a Mastiff & or Mastiff & Bull breeds group a Herding group etc etc. Gosh that would be thinking outside the ring!

I'm sure there are anomalies with the groupings in other breeds but it just strikes me as quite bizarre that a dog so obviously developed as a water retrieving gun dog is not in the gun dog group.

[Sheridan]

There seem to be larger group splits overseas. Not sure if they're any more logical.

[mita]

sure there are anomalies with the groupings in other breeds but it just strikes me as quite bizarre that a dog so obviously developed as a water retrieving gun dog is not in the gun dog group.

Yes. A Standard Poodle breeder once explained to me that the coat 'cut' seen in the show-ring is a stylized version of the cuts that hunters originally did, to help the dogs move easier thro' the water. That made me look at Standard Poodles quite differently. And I was surprised they weren't in the gun dog group.

Edited March 28, 2013 by mita

[*kirty*]

And you cant use them as gundogs in Vic either.

[RallyValley]

Then Airedales should be added to gun dogs too! :)

There are already enough dogs in the Group 3 ring that have no modern ties to their ancestral ability - what's another :laugh: I wonder if a Poodle of today could hunt and show? I have seen pics of Poodles in the US hunting but none in a show clip or any that are currently shown.

[mita]

TI have seen pics of Poodles in the US hunting

Yes, there's a lovely pic of a US poodle doing his retrieving work for a hunter. The article says that the very name 'poodle' comes from a Low German word 'pudein' meaning 'to splash'.

http://retrieverman.net/2008/12/09/article-on-hunting-poodles/

Edited March 28, 2013 by mita

[zeebie]

If you look at the history of most of the dogs thrown into Gr 7 (Non sporting dogs) most had significant history in their origins such as the British Bulldog - bull baiting, tibetan Terriers were herding dogs, Great Danes hunters of wild boar and deer. We often feel like the left overs on a plate after a meal, as many of the dogs in this group do indeed belong in other groups, and it is by far the hardest group to judge with the variety of breeds and differences etc.How can you possibly compare a tiny toy poodle to a great Dane or Sharpei, or a Lhaso Apso to a Dalmation.

For those not familiar here is list of those dogs who are currently placed in Grp 7 at shows in Australia.

Boston Terrier,British Bulldog,Canaan Dog,Chow Chow,Dalmatian,Eurasier,French Bulldog,German Spitz (Mittel & Klein),

Great Dane,Japanese Spitz,Keeshond,Lhasa Apso,Peruvian Hairless Dog (Large),Peruvian Hairless Dog (Medium),Peruvian Hairless Dog (Small),Poodle (Miniature,Poodle (Standard),Poodle (Toy),Schipperke,Shar Pei, Shi Tzu, Tibetian Terrier and

Xoloitzcuintle!!!

[Pjrt]

If you look at the history of most of the dogs thrown into Gr 7 (Non sporting dogs) most had significant history in their origins such as the British Bulldog - bull baiting, tibetan Terriers were herding dogs, Great Danes hunters of wild boar and deer. We often feel like the left overs on a plate after a meal, as many of the dogs in this group do indeed belong in other groups, and it is by far the hardest group to judge with the variety of breeds and differences etc.How can you possibly compare a tiny toy poodle to a great Dane or Sharpei, or a Lhaso Apso to a Dalmation.

For those not familiar here is list of those dogs who are currently placed in Grp 7 at shows in Australia.

Boston Terrier,British Bulldog,Canaan Dog,Chow Chow,Dalmatian,Eurasier,French Bulldog,German Spitz (Mittel & Klein),

Great Dane,Japanese Spitz,Keeshond,Lhasa Apso,Peruvian Hairless Dog (Large),Peruvian Hairless Dog (Medium),Peruvian Hairless Dog (Small),Poodle (Miniature,Poodle (Standard),Poodle (Toy),Schipperke,Shar Pei, Shi Tzu, Tibetian Terrier and

Xoloitzcuintle!!!

That is exactly how I think of group 7 .Yes!

[Zug Zug]

Yes it is weird (my Std Poodle is a gun dog through and through)

Then again splitting up the poodle sizes into different groups would also be weird

[persephone]

No idea of show groupings- but I love seeing stories like this , of poodles doing what their breed used to do :) They are sturdy , can think independently, .... it's great!

LINK

[becks]

I find the way some of the aus groups have been put together, very strange! Most of your non sporting is part of our utility group but then you have working breeds in there too! :laugh:

The 3 poodle sizes are also in our utility group - a group put together of breeds that no longer function in their original capacity or breeds which have worked in a variety of roles - eg poodles as circus dogs - very different to being a gundog. While the gundog group still have members of these breeds out in the field (maybe working line version of the breed, but they are still out there doing their job)

[Esky the husky]

Are there any poodles that work here is Aus? Are they able to participate in gun dog events?

[cali]

I don't know if this is the case elsewhere but I always find it funny that we have Dachshunds in the hound group...they were bred to go to ground after badger, rabbits etc.. IOW..they are terriers... from what I understand its because name was originally mis-translated as "badger hound" but the correct translation is "badger DOG"..and they didn't bother to fix the mistake, which strikes me a silly... how hard can it be to put the breed into the proper grouping? like really?

as for the poodle clip...the show clip is a VERY extreme version of the hunting clip..so extreme it would be utterly useless as a hunting clip lol, poodles used for hunting are just shaved down. there are a few people that use them in north america as hunting dogs but not many. no idea about elsewhere.

[espinay2]

Who knows why some dogs are in some groups. For example why some of the Livestock Guardian breeds are in Utility Grp 6 (Pyrenean Mountain Dog, Anatolian etc) and some in Working Grp 5 (Maremma, Komondor etc).

Our Non Sporting and Utility were one group once upon a time too, before they were split (trying to remember when that was done - in the 80's ??)

[jacobite]

Totally agree about the Bager dogs, they should,be in the Terrier group, but you try telling their owners that!!

Pam

[Pjrt]

It does seem as if our groups could be re shuffled using a bit more logic overall!

[*kirty*]

No they are not allowed to be used as gundogs (not in Vic anyway). I know duck hunters here can only use purebred dogs of certain breeds and poodles arent on that list.

[mita]

If you look at the history of most of the dogs thrown into Gr 7 (Non sporting dogs) most had significant history in their origins such as the British Bulldog - bull baiting, tibetan Terriers were herding dogs, Great Danes hunters of wild boar and deer. We often feel like the left overs on a plate after a meal, as many of the dogs in this group do indeed belong in other groups, and it is by far the hardest group to judge with the variety of breeds and differences etc.How can you possibly compare a tiny toy poodle to a great Dane or Sharpei, or a Lhaso Apso to a Dalmation.

For those not familiar here is list of those dogs who are currently placed in Grp 7 at shows in Australia.

Tibetan Spaniels have confusing classification. Here in Australia, they're in the Toy Group. But in the USA (& the UK) they're in the Non-sporting group. If you look at all the winners at Westminster, there's Tenzin BOB Tibbie listed with the Non-sporting.

I have no idea the history of such a weirdness.

Edited March 29, 2013 by mita