I'm Friends With The Judge (or I Am Paying Them)...

[Dobecrazy]

Awkward topic.. does anyone know how common or if this happens at all? I am sure a lot of people know and are friends with Judges so I guess my question is.. is it worth entering under a Judge that has co-breeders or "friends" in the same breed that are entered.. are they bias? does this ACTUALLY happen? Are there penalties so to speak for Judges that seem bias?

Have there ever been cases of people paying Judges or making deals with them so to speak?

I guess I ask this question as a new/ish exhibitor, should I be making sure my research of Judges includes this sort of thing? Does not seem fair but I am sure it has happened or does happen. Can anyone weigh in.

I know this is a fairly sensitive topic.. but I would appreciate the truth. Is it worth wasting entry money if friends of friends or co-breeders have entered? Even if my dog IS good enough?

Edited March 27, 2013 by Dobecrazy

[Salukifan]

Does it happen? Yep.

Does it always happen? Nope.

Never heard of anything as unethical as paying for a win. Could have happened. Putting up folk who put your dogs up - I'm sure it happens but not always.

Most of us track who we've shown under and what we think of them. A few judges get "never again" annotations from me but not many.

I'll say this: you cannot win under a judge if you never enter under them. I say give everyone a shot and form your own view. Most breed communities are small worlds. Everyone knows everyone to a greater or lesser degree. If you find out the judge had dinner with their BOB winner's connections last night, that's one thing but its rarely that obvious.

Edited March 27, 2013 by Haredown Whippets

[espinay2]

I am sure it happens from time to time, but likely no where near as much as the excuse is used. A judge is always worth an entry at least once. As with HW some get a never again, but not many and that can be for all different reasons. IMO it is important not to try and make 'excuses' about why a dog wins or doesn't (though we are all prone to it from time to time - it is human nature) as it shuts us off from improving and working out ways we can improve.

[OSoSwift]

I know of a breeder and judge who put up a bitch of a fellow breeder in his breed. Normally he didn't like there type much, but he said on the day the bitch was the best one there and worked her socks off, so she went BOB.

Most judges are ethical yes they are more likely to pick the type they like because as far as they are concerned that is the correct interpretation of the breed standard. Doesn't mean they were paid off or put their friend up

[Marion 01]

My observations from years of showing. You go to shows and show your dog to the best of your ability, can't do any more than that. Some people are playing for sheep stations and have a win at all cost attitude, others go to show off their dogs and enjoy the day out and the company of like minded people. In the end you go home with the best dog, and the dog couldn't give a toss about whether he won or didn't. Over time you will see with your own eyes and will form your own opinion. On occasions you can go to shows read the catalogue, see who is judging and pretty much forcast the results. Breed Standards are open to wide range of interpretations.

[conztruct]

I haven't heard of a judge ever being paid for a result although I'd never consider anything is impossible in the Dog Show world.

I think most judges are pretty ethical, usually being current or past exhibitors they have been on the outside of the ring and if they've ever witnessed a decision that is, shall we say, dubious, they know how bad it looks. I can't understand why they'd want to damage their reputation by doing it.

On the other hand, the behaviour of some exhibitors in trying to influence decisions is appalling. Yes, it is ultimately the judge who makes the decision and should be accountable but just once or twice I'd like to see a response from a judge that went something like "Yes, your dog that you've been sending me thousands of pictures of and listing it's wins and including your picture as the handler and just mentioning that you'll be showing under me in the near future, looks lovely however, I think it's innappropriate for you to do all this before my appointment so I would appreciate it if you did not enter under me". This does happen a lot - I am friends with trainee judges who have told me that when their appointments are announced, out comes the facebook friend requests, photos and messages and it's blatently obvious what the exhibitor is trying to do. I'd like to see that addressed.

So like exhibitors there are probably judges who lack some integrity but as has been mentioned before, it's worth giving a judge an entry and if you don't like the result or think something is "up", don't enter again under them.

[Diva]

Corrupt judging happens just as lazy judging and ignorant judging do. But if you worry too much about that it will spoil your fun. If you know a few old timers who can let you know the reputation of a judge you are considering it is worth asking, because while you may not get the full reason many experienced people are happy to discretely let you know if they are 'worth an entry', as long as they are very confident that you can also be discrete in how you handle the information. Sometimes, if I am just after points on a young dog and I know their 'interests' don't extend to my breed, I don't necessarily much care if a judge's ethics are dodgy at BIG or BIS level. Sometimes I am just there for the challenge points.

It is important though to recognise that mostly you will get an honest appraisal from a judge trying their best, and you are more likely to lose because of a better dog, or a better trained and handled dog, or a judge that just has a different preferred style, or a judge whose best judgement is just not that great, than for bias.

[Nevafollo]

I give every judge atleast two goes unless they dont deserve it! Then I decide wether they are ever worth going under again!

[Sandra777]

Face judging does happen - absolutely.

But after 30+ years in the show ring I honestly believe that what is perceived as face judging is made up of...

- a simple fact that well known, established breeders tend to have better dogs than novices, prepare them better & present them better. Even if the novice's dog is equal to (or better) than the other dog, it probably isn't conditioned, groomed (in coated breeds) or handled as well. Even in the case of a "known handler" taking the dog in the ring rather than the owner - most of the time the really good handlers know a good dog when they see one so will only show a really good dog in the first place plus have the talent of getting the best out of it. The judge only has 2 or 3 minutes to assess the dog (totalling up the class gaiting together plus individual exam time) so if for 2 minutes the dog is standing with it's front feet together while the newbie handler fusses around with the lead, that's going to be a big black mark against even the best dog. It's all very well to say that the judge should be able to look past the handling, but judges who try to do this tend to get abuse for being 'slow' - it takes time to assess a dog which is stacked badly, wriggles, doesn't gait straight etc etc etc.

- ignorance. A judge can't be expected to know the finer points of all breeds in a group, let alone all breeds at the show. Some judges simply wouldn't know a good Mongolian Rat Pointer if it bit them on the butt so if Mrs X has been in the BIS line up ten times with her MRP it "must be a good one". Sometimes this is done out of genuine mis-guided belief that the dog "must be good" and sometimes it's because the judge simply has no interest in the breed (or the whole group on rare occasions) and puts up the "winning dog" so they look like they know what they're doing.

- genuine face-judging.

[SkySoaringMagpie]

Face judging does happen - absolutely.

But after 30+ years in the show ring I honestly believe that what is perceived as face judging is made up of...

Agree with this summary.

The only other thing I'd add is that where a judge is sending a dog through to a different judge for General Specials, there is additional pressure to send through something "credible". If the GS judge doesn't select any of their candidates many judges will be disappointed. So sending through a bumbling newbie with a remarkable dog that the newbie has done an excellent job of making look as terrible as possible isn't something most will do. Some will, but that's not enough to build a showing career on, so I think you have to ask yourself each time "what did they do/have that I didn't?" instead of complaining about face judging.

[zeebie]

As someone has said in another thread it should be what is on the lower end of the lead being judged not the person holding the lead :)

As for grooming and 'styling' and product use this should be banned and basic dog should be being judged for conformation only, not all the tissy up mess about which in most cases within five seconds of being in the ring and exam by the judge the styling is totally wrecked anyway.

They have a 6/6a, a 7/7a and 8/a section but to date I have not seen any of these sections offered would certainly encourage more inexperienced show people to have a go and also give them a chance of actually winning an event as 'non professional' dog people.

Having only shown for past 12 months I have listened alot, asked questions, taken feedback and watched closely to try to improve my handling and I definately fall into the catergory of being out there only to have fun and friendship of like minded people, winning has only been a bonus and never in my wildest dreams did I ever eexpect to have a dog who is now only 13 points off her Australian champion title in only 12 months of showing. And I am definately a Mr Bean of the show ring maybe they just give me the sympathy vote.

[Trisven13]

Face judging does happen - absolutely.

But after 30+ years in the show ring I honestly believe that what is perceived as face judging is made up of...

Agree with this summary.

The only other thing I'd add is that where a judge is sending a dog through to a different judge for General Specials, there is additional pressure to send through something "credible". If the GS judge doesn't select any of their candidates many judges will be disappointed. So sending through a bumbling newbie with a remarkable dog that the newbie has done an excellent job of making look as terrible as possible isn't something most will do. Some will, but that's not enough to build a showing career on, so I think you have to ask yourself each time "what did they do/have that I didn't?" instead of complaining about face judging.

That is actually a really good point that I'm surprised I haven't picked up on before Anita. I've heard judges be excited that a dog that they selected as a group winner or class in group winner went on to take an in show prize and it makes sense. Yet another reason to improve on my handling.

[Dogsfevr]

Grooming doesn't mean a coated breed either .

Many lesser coated breeds are presented in poor condition ,it amazes me how many people don't even bother washing there dog because in there "mind" its clean

Conditioning of dogs plays a part too.

Showing is a complete package from handling to show conditioning .

I have a coated breed & enjoy tissing them up after all its a dog show not a pet show & i would expect a higher level of coat care in the ring than