How Often Do We Do The 'annual' Vaccination?

[moosepup]

We most definitely need to vaccinate our dogs, there's no argument there, it's the frequency that's under debate. :)

Well actually no, we don't, not beyond the initial puppy vaccs.

That's what I meant, all dogs at least need their puppy vaccs.... sorry it wasn't clear enough.

Edited April 10, 2013 by moosepup

[Chocolatelover]

We most definitely need to vaccinate our dogs, there's no argument there, it's the frequency that's under debate. :)

Well actually no, we don't, not beyond the initial puppy vaccs.

[Chocolatelover]

Do you have a link for evidence of this? That is a huge statement and I was unaware there was proof that every dog retains lifelong immunity after their puppy shots.

[minimax]

Do you have a link for evidence of this? That is a huge statement and I was unaware there was proof that every dog retains lifelong immunity after their puppy shots.

The statement was we definitely need time vaccinate dogs, I said no we don't definitely. If you want research on things such on titre testing to test for immunity instead of blindly vaccinating, there is a lot of info out there. I did my own research, I'm not doing yours too.

[moosepup]

Here's one article that has quoted research: http://www.dogsnaturallymagazine.com/lifelong-immunity-vets/ . I'm about to head out so can't look for more but if you're interested have a search for Dr Jean Dodds and Dr Ron Shultz.

From one study...

Minimum Duration of Immunity for Canine Vaccines:

Distemper- 7 years by challenge/15 years by serology

Parvovirus – 7 years by challenge/ 7 years by serology

Adenovirus – 7 years by challenge/ 9 years by serology

I believe the above is applicable to more than 95% of canines and fits my own experience as both dogs have more than adequate titre results and haven't been vacc'd for 3 and 10+ years. Those figures would cover a lot of dogs for a lifetime.

Happy researching! :)

Edited April 10, 2013 by moosepup

[Chocolatelover]

Do you have a link for evidence of this? That is a huge statement and I was unaware there was proof that every dog retains lifelong immunity after their puppy shots.

The statement was we definitely need time vaccinate dogs, I said no we don't definitely. If you want research on things such on titre testing to test for immunity instead of blindly vaccinating, there is a lot of info out there. I did my own research, I'm not doing yours too.

You clearly stated that "well, actually no, we don't, not beyond the initial puppy vacs". Sorry I missed the word definitely - it didn't appear on my screen. I have done my own research thank you - and wouldn't trust yours anyway so have no desire for you to do mine. I read a thread a while back where someone lost two young dogs to parvo - both of whom had received their puppy vaccinations - so puppy vaccinations alone are not always sufficient for seroconversion. But don't let facts get in the way of a good argument.

To the OP - it is important to read both sides, consider all the scientific evidence, and make a decision you are comfortable with.

[moosepup]

To the OP - it is important to read both sides, consider all the scientific evidence, and make a decision you are comfortable with.

Spot on. :)

[oakway]

Do you have a link for evidence of this? That is a huge statement and I was unaware there was proof that every dog retains lifelong immunity after their puppy shots.

The statement was we definitely need time vaccinate dogs, I said no we don't definitely. If you want research on things such on titre testing to test for immunity instead of blindly vaccinating, there is a lot of info out there. I did my own research, I'm not doing yours too.

You clearly stated that "well, actually no, we don't, not beyond the initial puppy vacs". Sorry I missed the word definitely - it didn't appear on my screen. I have done my own research thank you - and wouldn't trust yours anyway so have no desire for you to do mine. I read a thread a while back where someone lost two young dogs to parvo - both of whom had received their puppy vaccinations - so puppy vaccinations alone are not always sufficient for seroconversion. But don't let facts get in the way of a good argument.

To the OP - it is important to read both sides, consider all the scientific evidence, and make a decision you are comfortable with.

Chocolatelover As a long time breeder I MAY be able to give you a reason why vaccinated puppies die. Some bitches, and note I said some, can still be producing massive amounts of antibodies and if the pups are still nursing on their dams when vaccinated it is believed that the anti bodies from the bitch may in many cases be rendering the vaccine useless. Many breeders are removing their pups from their dams at 6 weeks and not allowing them to nurse from that time on and vaccinating at 8 weeks. Many of us are finding that 2 weeks clear of their dams and vaccinating at 8 weeks has been successful.

[minimax]

Do you have a link for evidence of this? That is a huge statement and I was unaware there was proof that every dog retains lifelong immunity after their puppy shots.

The statement was we definitely need time vaccinate dogs, I said no we don't definitely. If you want research on things such on titre testing to test for immunity instead of blindly vaccinating, there is a lot of info out there. I did my own research, I'm not doing yours too.

You clearly stated that "well, actually no, we don't, not beyond the initial puppy vacs". Sorry I missed the word definitely - it didn't appear on my screen. I have done my own research thank you - and wouldn't trust yours anyway so have no desire for you to do mine. I read a thread a while back where someone lost two young dogs to parvo - both of whom had received their puppy vaccinations - so puppy vaccinations alone are not always sufficient for seroconversion. But don't let facts get in the way of a good argument.

To the OP - it is important to read both sides, consider all the scientific evidence, and make a decision you are comfortable with.

No, they aren't. And I was unaware there was an argument

[~Anne~]

I choose not to vaccinate.

In my situation, my dogs were very likely exposed to various contagious diseases when I ran my rescue and I believe this exposure, along with their annual vaccinations they received up until they were about 5 or 6 years of age (before I decided to opt out of annual vacs), has left them with a healthy immunity.

I spoke at length with my vets about my decision and they were very comfortable with it although they did stress at it was important they receive the KC vaccination yearly. I must confess that I did this only twice and haven't done it since. My dogs have not had any vaccinations at all in 3 years.

I do not board my dogs, they do not mix with other dogs very often any more and I am well aware of potential risks. I'm happy with my decision for my individual circumstance.

Edited April 10, 2013 by ~Anne~

[Rosetta]

I have enquired at two boarding kennels recently - both will accept the 3 yearly C3 with an annual KC - yay

[Chocolatelover]

Do you have a link for evidence of this? That is a huge statement and I was unaware there was proof that every dog retains lifelong immunity after their puppy shots.

The statement was we definitely need time vaccinate dogs, I said no we don't definitely. If you want research on things such on titre testing to test for immunity instead of blindly vaccinating, there is a lot of info out there. I did my own research, I'm not doing yours too.

You clearly stated that "well, actually no, we don't, not beyond the initial puppy vacs". Sorry I missed the word definitely - it didn't appear on my screen. I have done my own research thank you - and wouldn't trust yours anyway so have no desire for you to do mine. I read a thread a while back where someone lost two young dogs to parvo - both of whom had received their puppy vaccinations - so puppy vaccinations alone are not always sufficient for seroconversion. But don't let facts get in the way of a good argument.

To the OP - it is important to read both sides, consider all the scientific evidence, and make a decision you are comfortable with.

Chocolatelover As a long time breeder I MAY be able to give you a reason why vaccinated puppies die. Some bitches, and note I said some, can still be producing massive amounts of antibodies and if the pups are still nursing on their dams when vaccinated it is believed that the anti bodies from the bitch may in many cases be rendering the vaccine useless. Many breeders are removing their pups from their dams at 6 weeks and not allowing them to nurse from that time on and vaccinating at 8 weeks. Many of us are finding that 2 weeks clear of their dams and vaccinating at 8 weeks has been successful.

I do fully understand the implications of neutralisation of the vaccine by maternal antibodies - this is why I disagree that puppy vaccines are a guarantee. I titrate human maternal antibodies in my work and it is not always an exact science. Maternal antibodies in a pup can persist longer than a two week timeframe, plus there is also the issue of the puppy's developing immune system. I can't recall the exact figures but not all puppies will seroconvert at twelve weeks whether there are maternal antibodies or not. However, by 16 weeks a higher percentage of puppies will seroconvert. I can't find the thread I was referring to but it was very sad and from memory the pups had the 8 and 12 week vaccine and died from parvo around six months.

For me personally, I chose to do 8 week (done by breeder after being weaned at 6 weeks), 12 week and also a 16 week, which the vet said they didn't need but was happy to do it. I felt that this was the best way of ensuring that my dogs seroconvert and are protected - most likely for life. I am not saying this is right or wrong but I am saying that vaccinations have saved more lives than any other medical discoveries and should not be seen as something that is going to cause your dog years of pain and suffering. The benefits outweigh the risks in the majority of cases. In a perfect world I would probably chose not to revaccinate other than one booster (similar to the schedule for human children), however circumstances dictate that I need to have my dog vaccinated for boarding purposes.

I fully understand there are implications in over-vaccinating. I just think it is important for people to hear both sides of the story that are true and accurate and to base their decisions from there :)

Edited April 10, 2013 by Chocolatelover

[Chocolatelover]

We most definitely need to vaccinate our dogs, there's no argument there, it's the frequency that's under debate. :)

Well actually no, we don't, not beyond the initial puppy vaccs.

Apologies - I have interpreted this statement incorrectly.

[oakway]

Do you have a link for evidence of this? That is a huge statement and I was unaware there was proof that every dog retains lifelong immunity after their puppy shots.

The statement was we definitely need time vaccinate dogs, I said no we don't definitely. If you want research on things such on titre testing to test for immunity instead of blindly vaccinating, there is a lot of info out there. I did my own research, I'm not doing yours too.

You clearly stated that "well, actually no, we don't, not beyond the initial puppy vacs". Sorry I missed the word definitely - it didn't appear on my screen. I have done my own research thank you - and wouldn't trust yours anyway so have no desire for you to do mine. I read a thread a while back where someone lost two young dogs to parvo - both of whom had received their puppy vaccinations - so puppy vaccinations alone are not always sufficient for seroconversion. But don't let facts get in the way of a good argument.

To the OP - it is important to read both sides, consider all the scientific evidence, and make a decision you are comfortable with.

Chocolatelover As a long time breeder I MAY be able to give you a reason why vaccinated puppies die. Some bitches, and note I said some, can still be producing massive amounts of antibodies and if the pups are still nursing on their dams when vaccinated it is believed that the anti bodies from the bitch may in many cases be rendering the vaccine useless. Many breeders are removing their pups from their dams at 6 weeks and not allowing them to nurse from that time on and vaccinating at 8 weeks. Many of us are finding that 2 weeks clear of their dams and vaccinating at 8 weeks has been successful.

I do fully understand the implications of neutralisation of the vaccine by maternal antibodies - this is why I disagree that puppy vaccines are not a guarantee. I titrate human maternal antibodies in my work and it is not always an exact science. Maternal antibodies in a pup can persist longer than a two week timeframe, plus there is also the issue of the puppy's developing immune system. I can't recall the exact figures but not all puppies will seroconvert at twelve weeks whether there are maternal antibodies or not. However, by 16 weeks a higher percentage of puppies will seroconvert. I can't find the thread I was referring to but it was very sad and from memory the pups had the 8 and 12 week vaccine and died from parvo around six months.

For me personally, I chose to do 8 week (done by breeder after being weaned at 6 weeks), 12 week and also a 16 week, which the vet said they didn't need but was happy to do it. I felt that this was the best way of ensuring that my dogs seroconvert and are protected - most likely for life. I am not saying this is right or wrong but I am saying that vaccinations have saved more lives than any other medical discoveries and should not be seen as something that is going to cause your dog years of pain and suffering. The benefits outweigh the risks in the majority of cases. In a perfect world I would probably chose not to revaccinate other than one booster (similar to the schedule for human children), however circumstances dictate that I need to have my dog vaccinated for boarding purposes.

I fully understand there are implications in over-vaccinating. I just think it is important for people to hear both sides of the story that are true and accurate and to base their decisions from there :)

I really don't care what anybody else does!!!!!! what I'm doing is working for me, and my dogs and pups and that's all that really matters in the end, healthy happy dogs and pups. :)

[Dame Aussie]

I choose not to vaccinate.

In my situation, my dogs were very likely exposed to various contagious diseases when I ran my rescue and I believe this exposure, along with their annual vaccinations they received up until they were about 5 or 6 years of age (before I decided to opt out of annual vacs), has left them with a healthy immunity.

I spoke at length with my vets about my decision and they were very comfortable with it although they did stress at it was important they receive the KC vaccination yearly. I must confess that I did this only twice and haven't done it since. My dogs have not had any vaccinations at all in 3 years.

I do not board my dogs, they do not mix with other dogs very often any more and I am well aware of potential risks. I'm happy with my decision for my individual circumstance.

This is me too.

When I got my dogs as babies I was working at a large pound and stayed on there for a few years after I got them so I believe they have been in contact woith all kinds. THey don;t get boarded and only mix with dogs they know other than the occasional hello sniff on a walk.

I see the KC as useless as it cannot protect against all strains, my dogs got it after they were vaccinated against it, and haven't had it since I stopped vaccinating for it.

Edited April 10, 2013 by Aussie3

[~Anne~]

Actually, the 'strain' concept isn't entirely correct as far as I understand it. Kennel cough can be both viral and bacterial. Most of the viral elements are able to be vaccinated against although I do believe there are some viral elements that there is no current vaccine for. You cannot vaccinate against the bacterial element at all.

When a dog is vaccinated against the virus, it does give protection. In many cases, more than 1 virus maybe involved at the same time. If your dog is vaccinated, it prevents the dog from suffering the full effects of the illness.

Edited April 10, 2013 by ~Anne~

[Jumabaar]

Do you have a link for evidence of this? That is a huge statement and I was unaware there was proof that every dog retains lifelong immunity after their puppy shots.

The statement was we definitely need time vaccinate dogs, I said no we don't definitely. If you want research on things such on titre testing to test for immunity instead of blindly vaccinating, there is a lot of info out there. I did my own research, I'm not doing yours too.

You clearly stated that "well, actually no, we don't, not beyond the initial puppy vacs". Sorry I missed the word definitely - it didn't appear on my screen. I have done my own research thank you - and wouldn't trust yours anyway so have no desire for you to do mine. I read a thread a while back where someone lost two young dogs to parvo - both of whom had received their puppy vaccinations - so puppy vaccinations alone are not always sufficient for seroconversion. But don't let facts get in the way of a good argument.

To the OP - it is important to read both sides, consider all the scientific evidence, and make a decision you are comfortable with.

Chocolatelover As a long time breeder I MAY be able to give you a reason why vaccinated puppies die. Some bitches, and note I said some, can still be producing massive amounts of antibodies and if the pups are still nursing on their dams when vaccinated it is believed that the anti bodies from the bitch may in many cases be rendering the vaccine useless. Many breeders are removing their pups from their dams at 6 weeks and not allowing them to nurse from that time on and vaccinating at 8 weeks. Many of us are finding that 2 weeks clear of their dams and vaccinating at 8 weeks has been successful.

I do fully understand the implications of neutralisation of the vaccine by maternal antibodies - this is why I disagree that puppy vaccines are a guarantee. I titrate human maternal antibodies in my work and it is not always an exact science. Maternal antibodies in a pup can persist longer than a two week timeframe, plus there is also the issue of the puppy's developing immune system. I can't recall the exact figures but not all puppies will seroconvert at twelve weeks whether there are maternal antibodies or not. However, by 16 weeks a higher percentage of puppies will seroconvert. I can't find the thread I was referring to but it was very sad and from memory the pups had the 8 and 12 week vaccine and died from parvo around six months.

For me personally, I chose to do 8 week (done by breeder after being weaned at 6 weeks), 12 week and also a 16 week, which the vet said they didn't need but was happy to do it. I felt that this was the best way of ensuring that my dogs seroconvert and are protected - most likely for life. I am not saying this is right or wrong but I am saying that vaccinations have saved more lives than any other medical discoveries and should not be seen as something that is going to cause your dog years of pain and suffering. The benefits outweigh the risks in the majority of cases. In a perfect world I would probably chose not to revaccinate other than one booster (similar to the schedule for human children), however circumstances dictate that I need to have my dog vaccinated for boarding purposes.

I fully understand there are implications in over-vaccinating. I just think it is important for people to hear both sides of the story that are true and accurate and to base their decisions from there :)

I cant remember the study but with the killed vaccine I think 95% seroconverted at 12weeks, 99% seroconverted at 16 weeks. And there will always be some non responders who will not seroconvert regardless of the number of vaccines given.

I think seroconversion was higher with the live vaccines at earlier ages.

The reason a number of shots are given is to try and give puppies the vaccine as soon as the maternal antibodies drop off and because its impossible to predict when it happens the schedule of 8, 12 and 16 weeks was done to ensure that 99% of pups would be covered. There is also a gap between maternal antibodies being protective and the level that will interfere with the vaccine- so some pups may have no protection at all for a month or longer during this period. As you said there have been a few cases of pups contracting parvo at 5mths of age after they finished their killed vaccine course at 14weeks (6, 10 and 14weeks)- the unlucky pups that fall into that less than 5% category and must have used the killed vaccine.

I use the live vaccine so I can have pups out earlier and because I am in contact with parvo etc so only do 2 shots as the manufactures recommend. I also havent needed to give a 1yr shot because all of them have had high titres. I do think that there would be genetics in there- so I would be much more likely to do 3 shots on a breed like a dobe or rottie who are more susceptible to parvo that I am with my dogs/lines that have all responded will to the 12week live vaccine.

[becks]

My vets use the Nobivac DHPPi for puppy vaccs and from their data sheet (nobivac) it says

Primary coursevaccination

A single injection should establish active immunity to canine distemper, infectious canine hepatitis and disease caused by canine parvovirus infection in dogs of 10 weeks of age or older. Where earlier protection is required a first dose may be given to puppies from 6 weeks of age, but because maternally derived passive antibody can interfere with the response to vaccination a final dose at 10 weeks of age or older is generally recommended. For an optimal response to the parainfluenza component, animals should be vaccinated twice, 2-4 weeks apart with the final vaccination at 10 weeks of age or more.

http://www.msd-animal-health.co.uk/products_public/nobivac_dhppi/090_product_datasheet.aspx

[oakway]

My vets use the Nobivac DHPPi for puppy vaccs and from their data sheet (nobivac) it says

Primary coursevaccination

A single injection should establish active immunity to canine distemper, infectious canine hepatitis and disease caused by canine parvovirus infection in dogs of 10 weeks of age or older. Where earlier protection is required a first dose may be given to puppies from 6 weeks of age, but because maternally derived passive antibody can interfere with the response to vaccination a final dose at 10 weeks of age or older is generally recommended. For an optimal response to the parainfluenza component, animals should be vaccinated twice, 2-4 weeks apart with the final vaccination at 10 weeks of age or more.

http://www.msd-animal-health.co.uk/products_public/nobivac_dhppi/090_product_datasheet.aspx

Yes, I use the same. :)

I should have said I use the same but at approx. 8 weeks.

Edited April 11, 2013 by oakway

[Chocolatelover]

My vets use the Nobivac DHPPi for puppy vaccs and from their data sheet (nobivac) it says

Primary coursevaccination

A single injection should establish active immunity to canine distemper, infectious canine hepatitis and disease caused by canine parvovirus infection in dogs of 10 weeks of age or older. Where earlier protection is required a first dose may be given to puppies from 6 weeks of age, but because maternally derived passive antibody can interfere with the response to vaccination a final dose at 10 weeks of age or older is generally recommended. For an optimal response to the parainfluenza component, animals should be vaccinated twice, 2-4 weeks apart with the final vaccination at 10 weeks of age or more.

http://www.msd-animal-health.co.uk/products_public/nobivac_dhppi/090_product_datasheet.aspx

It is the word "should" that bothers me :) And the fact that the data sheet goes on to state that

"A good immune response is reliant on the reaction of an immunogenic agent and a fully competent immune system. The immunogenicity of the vaccine antigen will be reduced by poor storage or inappropriate administration. Immunocompetence of the animal may be compromised by a variety of factors including poor health, nutritional status, genetic factors, concurrent drug therapy and stress."

That implies to me that they are confident of the vaccine as long as the pup has a fully competent immune system - which is not necessarily the case for a 10 week old pup. Personally, I feel more confident knowing that my dogs are older and around the 16 week mark when they receive their final puppy vaccination.

The data sheet also states

"Booster vaccination

It is recommended that dogs be revaccinated with canine distemper virus, canine adenovirus and canine parvovirus every 3 years and against canine parainfluenzavirus every year."

However people don't seem to agree with this part so not sure what the answer is other than do what you think is best for your dogs.