corvus Posted March 27, 2013 Share Posted March 27, 2013 2. yelping loudly and stop playing/patting - but it seems to stimulate her? She has started jumping back but she gets down into that playful position and launches again. Everytime she hears me yelp, she runs around and comes back for a bite, I am really baffled by this. Yeah, it can get aroused dogs more aroused. Fun and games! 3. we've taught her the 'leave' command, everytime she bites on my hand I say leave and the moment she lets go, I say good girl and treat. somehow I think it has translated as, if I bite and let go, she'll treat... how should i change it so she realises, don't bite at all? This is called a behaviour chain. Nine times out of ten it is easily remedied by being more proactive and cuing the 'leave it' BEFORE the dog has managed to bite you. What you're looking for is when she looks at you with that bright gleam in her eye and if she turns that bright look onto body parts, THAT'S when you say 'leave it'. This probably fixes the problem more than 9 times out of 10, actually. One of my dogs is a behaviour chaining machine and has done this kind of thing several times. It tells me I'm being reactive instead of proactive. I'm reacting to his behaviour rather than proactively cueing the behaviour I want when I want it. As long as I'm reacting to him he has the upper hand (paw) because he's one step ahead of me. Incidentally, the same little grey monster that is so good at getting ahead of me in training was also a landshark as a puppy. He was pretty relentless. It helped to figure out why he was enjoying biting us so much. He is a herding breed and he was reacting to our movements and trying to control them. Biting us made us stop, and that made him happy. So we started using the rock solid sit we'd already taught him to interrupt the biting before it happened and get his attention on our faces rather than our moving body parts. Then practiced a slow motion heel to the nearest toy. The best (and sometimes worst) thing about puppies is they are very distractible. If you got good behaviour from them for a few moments and reward by throwing a toy for them to chase, by the time they've chased the toy and grabbed it they have forgotten about your limbs and are absorbed in biting the toy, which is why we give them toys. :) Well done on realising that she needs to be calmer. It's not that obvious to many people. I highly recommend massage. Long, slow strokes or small, slow circles with your fingers. She probably won't want any bar of it at first, but I would say persist. With my boy I would hold him still for a few moments of massage, then let him go, and the next time hold him for a tiny bit longer. Pretty soon he realised he quite liked massage. Giving her something to chew on like a pig's ear or a stuffed Kong is also likely to help. Pop her in her pen with something to occupy that busy mouth when you want to send her the message that it's down time, now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
persephone Posted March 27, 2013 Share Posted March 27, 2013 That is an immediate pick up and back in bed! :) and she gets the attention !! To everyone who is getting bitten ...just keep hands away , perhaps? IMO pups really don't NEED to be cuddled and patted lots ...and then only when they are doing the 'right' thing :) It is their way of playing ...and they must think humans are SO good ..providing wiggly things and fun noises all the time !!! I suggest people don't use hands to play with a puppy ..use toys - do tug ..throw balls , hold treats and squaeky toys ... IMO Hands are for feeding from , for scratches/pats when there is a QUIET puppy with FOUR FEET on the floor , and a puppy who has responded well to a command :) ..hands are there for a secure pick up when necessary ..and a soothing comfort when hurt or sick.... hands help with grooming , and with cleaning ....but not playing. ;) What games does one play using hands ? I have no idea.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mthetealady Posted March 27, 2013 Share Posted March 27, 2013 I suggest people don't use hands to play with a puppy ..use toys - do tug ..throw balls , hold treats and squaeky toys ... IMO Hands are for feeding from , for scratches/pats when there is a QUIET puppy with FOUR FEET on the floor , and a puppy who has responded well to a command :) ..hands are there for a secure pick up when necessary ..and a soothing comfort when hurt or sick.... hands help with grooming , and with cleaning ....but not playing. ;) What games does one play using hands ? I have no idea.... Lol, well I don't know about others, but I have to use my hands to hold the treat/toy/tug rope/ball/squeaky toy! I'm certainly not going to hold any of the puppy's toys in my mouth to play with her! :laugh: We don't dangle our hands in front of her alluringly to tempt a bite. Nine times out of ten, Nellie will ignore the toy we are playing with and go straight for the hand holding it. She is far more interested in our hands and feet than she is in any of the many toys she has on offer. Let me add that she loves mouthing everything at the moment because she is exploring and curious, but her favourite things to mouth are human appendages. I guess they are soft and warm and oh so delicious... She is very quick to learn and already knows how to sit, drop, shake hands and come reliably. But, she does not like to be patted as a method of praise without first attempting a good old chew on a finger. She also has a strange habit of trying to grab our hands with her paws - she reaches out with one paw and tries to pull the hand toward her mouth. She has done this since day one of joining us. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cosmolo Posted March 27, 2013 Share Posted March 27, 2013 STOP. Get some professional help before things get worse. Ask for recommendations for a professional in your area. The more techniques you try unsuccessfully the harder these sorts of issues become to resolve. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simply Grand Posted March 27, 2013 Share Posted March 27, 2013 Yep, what Cos says. With a strong (physically and willed) dog like an Akita already 5 months old I wouldn't let it go any longer, get someone recommended to come and see in person what is happening and advise you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlackJaq Posted March 27, 2013 Share Posted March 27, 2013 (edited) If your puppy gets overly stimulated I suggest you put a lead on him/her and simply hold them still when they get bitey/aroused. Maybe put your foot on the lead so they cannot go anywhere and keep your hands out of reach. Wait until they settle, then praise in a calm voice. Do not use a high pitched or squeaky voice, avoid anything that might excite them. Once they settle, try again whatever you were doing. This has worked well for me with excitable puppies. If it is an aggression issue I would consult with a behaviourist. Obviously once they reach a certain size this may no longer be an option Edited March 27, 2013 by BlackJaq Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
persephone Posted March 27, 2013 Share Posted March 27, 2013 STOP. Get some professional help before things get worse. Ask for recommendations for a professional in your area. The more techniques you try unsuccessfully the harder these sorts of issues become to resolve. My apologies- I didn't read properly and note age of pup. cnsunshine Definitely hold off on trying aversives ..and get some professional help. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dame Aussie Posted March 27, 2013 Share Posted March 27, 2013 Yeah at 5 months and 18kg I'd probably be getting some advice. Our Aussie was a terrible biter but she stopped by about 4 months. I understand your concerns about leaving her outside but an 18kg puppy in a small pen all day is not going to be helping the situation. She's probably quite bored/frustrated. Is there any way of covering a section of your yard so there is a roof and nothing can be thrown in? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cnsunshine Posted March 27, 2013 Author Share Posted March 27, 2013 2. yelping loudly and stop playing/patting - but it seems to stimulate her? She has started jumping back but she gets down into that playful position and launches again. Everytime she hears me yelp, she runs around and comes back for a bite, I am really baffled by this. Yeah, it can get aroused dogs more aroused. Fun and games! 3. we've taught her the 'leave' command, everytime she bites on my hand I say leave and the moment she lets go, I say good girl and treat. somehow I think it has translated as, if I bite and let go, she'll treat... how should i change it so she realises, don't bite at all? This is called a behaviour chain. Nine times out of ten it is easily remedied by being more proactive and cuing the 'leave it' BEFORE the dog has managed to bite you. What you're looking for is when she looks at you with that bright gleam in her eye and if she turns that bright look onto body parts, THAT'S when you say 'leave it'. This probably fixes the problem more than 9 times out of 10, actually. One of my dogs is a behaviour chaining machine and has done this kind of thing several times. It tells me I'm being reactive instead of proactive. I'm reacting to his behaviour rather than proactively cueing the behaviour I want when I want it. As long as I'm reacting to him he has the upper hand (paw) because he's one step ahead of me. Incidentally, the same little grey monster that is so good at getting ahead of me in training was also a landshark as a puppy. He was pretty relentless. It helped to figure out why he was enjoying biting us so much. He is a herding breed and he was reacting to our movements and trying to control them. Biting us made us stop, and that made him happy. So we started using the rock solid sit we'd already taught him to interrupt the biting before it happened and get his attention on our faces rather than our moving body parts. Then practiced a slow motion heel to the nearest toy. The best (and sometimes worst) thing about puppies is they are very distractible. If you got good behaviour from them for a few moments and reward by throwing a toy for them to chase, by the time they've chased the toy and grabbed it they have forgotten about your limbs and are absorbed in biting the toy, which is why we give them toys. :) Well done on realising that she needs to be calmer. It's not that obvious to many people. I highly recommend massage. Long, slow strokes or small, slow circles with your fingers. She probably won't want any bar of it at first, but I would say persist. With my boy I would hold him still for a few moments of massage, then let him go, and the next time hold him for a tiny bit longer. Pretty soon he realised he quite liked massage. Giving her something to chew on like a pig's ear or a stuffed Kong is also likely to help. Pop her in her pen with something to occupy that busy mouth when you want to send her the message that it's down time, now. Thanks so much for that! Thats provided me with a lot of clarity on what we were doing wrong. Wow, I knew she was smart but I didn't realise she was training us instead of us training her I'm going to implement that, before she does in for a bite, I'll try to distract her with a command or a toy. Thanks again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cnsunshine Posted March 27, 2013 Author Share Posted March 27, 2013 (edited) Yeah at 5 months and 18kg I'd probably be getting some advice. Our Aussie was a terrible biter but she stopped by about 4 months. I understand your concerns about leaving her outside but an 18kg puppy in a small pen all day is not going to be helping the situation. She's probably quite bored/frustrated. Is there any way of covering a section of your yard so there is a roof and nothing can be thrown in? Yes, i tried the tongue thing last night a couple of times and now my hands are really bruised and I felt horrible seeing her struggle like that. We tried to call Steve from K9pro yesterday and will try to call again today. Hopefully he can fit us in his schedule but until then we're going to be really careful with how we handle her. We'll be moving soon so she'll have a yard to herself, in the meantime, I'll see what I can do about her being cooped up during the day. Maybe ask my mum to look after her once a week. Please let me know if my suggestions aren't good for her. Also, we're located in south-western sydney, if there are any behaviourist anyone can recommend, especially someone who knows Akita it would be great. I'm happy to travel anywhere, with our puppy growing at 1kg a week, its becoming a priority for us. Edited March 27, 2013 by cnsunshine Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dame Aussie Posted March 27, 2013 Share Posted March 27, 2013 I think your suggestions are good, you're obviously a responsible caring owner, don't second guess yourself! :) Some dogs can just be a bit more hard work than others. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Justrace Posted March 27, 2013 Share Posted March 27, 2013 I hope that Steve can see you really soon, you sound like a very caring owner & your pup is very lucky to have you. I bet you will learn alot from her (might not seem that way now), my naughtiest dog taught me so much. Good luck Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cnsunshine Posted March 27, 2013 Author Share Posted March 27, 2013 Thanks to everyone for your support so far, its made me feel a lot more positive and sane. I've had someone give me a 'told you Akita's are too agreesive' comment which made me really upset and second guess myself. Its never their fault in my opinion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
huski Posted March 28, 2013 Share Posted March 28, 2013 Yes, i tried the tongue thing last night a couple of times and now my hands are really bruised and I felt horrible seeing her struggle like that. We tried to call Steve from K9pro yesterday and will try to call again today. Hopefully he can fit us in his schedule but until then we're going to be really careful with how we handle her. We'll be moving soon so she'll have a yard to herself, in the meantime, I'll see what I can do about her being cooped up during the day. Maybe ask my mum to look after her once a week. Please let me know if my suggestions aren't good for her. Also, we're located in south-western sydney, if there are any behaviourist anyone can recommend, especially someone who knows Akita it would be great. I'm happy to travel anywhere, with our puppy growing at 1kg a week, its becoming a priority for us. Hey there Bec from K9Pro here, just wanted to let you know I'm on annual leave at the moment so not in the office to pick up the phone and its not likely anyone will answer your phone call as we are out of the office most of the time in training lessons. If you shoot an email to [email protected] we can give you a hand :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
corvus Posted March 28, 2013 Share Posted March 28, 2013 Thanks to everyone for your support so far, its made me feel a lot more positive and sane. I've had someone give me a 'told you Akita's are too agreesive' comment which made me really upset and second guess myself. Its never their fault in my opinion. They are poorly understood by most, I think. It's a breed that generally won't take crap from anyone, which comes with its own special responsibilities, and can take people used to more pliable dogs by surprise. Puppyhood is a delicate time with a dog like this because you don't have a strong relationship with her yet. Later down the track when she has that deep trust in you that only comes from a long, positive history with you she will probably be easier to handle, more accepting, and you can relax and enjoy the benefits of all your hard work. If you're not doing NILIF, start now! I'm guessing your breeder probably told you not to give her an inch. I prefer to think of this protocol as conditioning your dog to defer to you. Whenever she wants something, she knows a polite way to ask you for it is the best bet for getting it. And in turn, when you ask her to do something, which may occur any time, she will come to assume she probably wants to do what you ask her because it's usually rewarding. This is so valuable with a dog that has a strong will and isn't afraid to push back. It gives you the chance to install some really good foundations for a well behaved dog for life without provoking her and getting yourself into trouble. It gives you leverage when your interests and hers clash so that she will default to letting you have your way rather than fighting for what she wants. And you get better reliability because whenever your dog thinks "Hold on, is that something I want to do?" (which spitz breeds inevitably do), you will have a big fat, varied reinforcement history and a history of her doing what you suggest behind you tipping the scales in your favour. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StaffSam Posted March 28, 2013 Share Posted March 28, 2013 Hey cnsunshine.... Great to see you hanging in there.... And I think it's great you are going to see someone too!!!! My boy was extremely strong willed too and when you add the strength they have too it all!!!! ... Lol at the 'hold on is this something I really want to do' comment above... Spot on! All the best and keep us updated! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nekhbet Posted March 28, 2013 Share Posted March 28, 2013 You can also try Pet Resorts Australia for some help http://www.petresortsaustralia.com/ Try Glenn Cook there Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
melzawelza Posted March 30, 2013 Share Posted March 30, 2013 You can also try Pet Resorts Australia for some help http://www.petresortsaustralia.com/ Try Glenn Cook there I second Glenn! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cnsunshine Posted March 31, 2013 Author Share Posted March 31, 2013 Hey there Bec from K9Pro here, just wanted to let you know I'm on annual leave at the moment so not in the office to pick up the phone and its not likely anyone will answer your phone call as we are out of the office most of the time in training lessons. If you shoot an email to [email protected] we can give you a hand :) Hi Bec,its all good. I assumed with the Easter break everyone would be busy so I was going to wait until next week to try again. I will definitely shoot you an email in the next couple of days. Thanks for replying. :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cnsunshine Posted March 31, 2013 Author Share Posted March 31, 2013 Hi Everyone, An update since last week, we've spent the last 3 days focusing on her and her training and I'm really glad to say there has been a slight improvement. I've followed a lot of the advice provided on dolforum such as distracting her before she tries to bite, implementing the nilif tactic and definitely being more firm with her. I've also started recognising when she's getting tired, putting her into her pen to let her sleep which gives her time to chill out. There was one circumstance where she started biting me and couldn't let go, I actually struggled to get her to open her mouth and let go. I think no matter what, we will have to get a behaviourist to help us. Corvus - you're right, sometimes I tell her to come or sit and she definitely looks at me, thinks for a couple of seconds then walks away!! she has a very stubborn streak (which I love and hate at the same time). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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