cnsunshine Posted March 26, 2013 Share Posted March 26, 2013 (edited) Hi All,can you please provide some advice or direction on my issue with my 5 month old Akita. I've gone through a lot of the puppy forum for ideas but it hasn't been successful with her. So far she has been to puppy school and will be starting obedience school just after the Easter break. During this time, we've continued training her on her commands (sit, stay, come, leave etc), some tricks for fun (hand shake, touch etc) everyday. We've been trying really really hard to teach her bite inhibition but I'm ashamed to say it hasn't been too successful. So far, I've been trying these techniques: 1. standing still and ignoring her when she bites my feet but thats really hard because being a large dog... these bites hurt!! 2. yelping loudly and stop playing/patting - but it seems to stimulate her? She has started jumping back but she gets down into that playful position and launches again. Everytime she hears me yelp, she runs around and comes back for a bite, I am really baffled by this. 3. we've taught her the 'leave' command, everytime she bites on my hand I say leave and the moment she lets go, I say good girl and treat. somehow I think it has translated as, if I bite and let go, she'll treat... how should i change it so she realises, don't bite at all? Just a brief background on how we care for her. We take her for 2 brief walks (before and after work), brief catch sessions, 2 or 3 training sessions a night. All meals are fed from a frozen kong or buster cube. She's in a pen during the day, but after work, we let her roam around the living room and kitchen with us. Let me know if you want to know anything else. i think the biggest issue is for us, how should we adjust our training techniques to stop her biting? I'm starting to feel very frustrated because when she launches at us every 20 seconds to bite it hurts and we don't know how to calm her down or control her without physically grabbing her... however, there is no violence or anything from us. Its more frustration at myself because I don't know what to do. Do you think its because she doesn't see us as a pack leader or perhaps we need a behaviouralist? please help!!! here is my little girl Edit: Thanks so much for everyone's advice so far, really appreciate it. I'm definitely taking everyone's opinion and advice on board and will be seeking a behaviourist. Edited March 27, 2013 by cnsunshine Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StaffSam Posted March 27, 2013 Share Posted March 27, 2013 Hi I understand what you are going through... My new pup is in the throes of it. Nekhbet suggested to me in this same section recently to put your thumb under tongue of dog and press down ... Not sure how to duplicate exact words here but if you look at the puppy fangs help by me in puppy threads you will see it. I used to have an Akita... I was lucky I didn't have that issue with him! Good luck Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sandra777 Posted March 27, 2013 Share Posted March 27, 2013 She seems to have successfully trained you to provide treats when she bites :D Yelping obviously isn't working so I would dump that immediately. In a dog with a high prey drive the human yelp often sounds like prey not like litter mate and stimulates them more PLUS, at 5 months IMO the window for this to work has long since closed. Bigger breeds develop at different rates to the medium breeds I'm used to but with mine, if they bothered an older dog at 5 months they would get a roar and a snap - 'stop bothering me you annoying brat'. If she was mine I'd be using my best growly voice and saying a loud NO. If she ignores you physically remove her from the situation (outside, crate, behind a baby gate) no treats for obeying "eventually", no approval for anything except instantly stopping the unwanted behaviour. Simply don't allow her to bite your hand, if she tries grab her lip or cheek or put your thumb down on her thumb and hold her jaw as already suggested. Hold firmly, no need to shake, pinch or do or say anything, just hold her firmly and make her stop the behaviour on her own - when she does release her and do nothing. No praise for obeying "eventually" remember! She will probably take a couple of days to realise this is no longer a fun game. THEN you have to teach her that it's OK for you to touch her mouth (check teeth, pull lips (gently!), tickle whiskers etc) but it's not OK for her mouth to touch your hand. Don't confuse the issue by trying to teach both things at once. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cnsunshine Posted March 27, 2013 Author Share Posted March 27, 2013 Hi I understand what you are going through... My new pup is in the throes of it. Nekhbet suggested to me in this same section recently to put your thumb under tongue of dog and press down ... Not sure how to duplicate exact words here but if you look at the puppy fangs help by me in puppy threads you will see it. I used to have an Akita... I was lucky I didn't have that issue with him! Good luck yeah i saw your thread the other day! has your puppy gotten better since? Any pics of your Akita? I love seeing everyone's dogs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cnsunshine Posted March 27, 2013 Author Share Posted March 27, 2013 She seems to have successfully trained you to provide treats when she bites :D Yelping obviously isn't working so I would dump that immediately. In a dog with a high prey drive the human yelp often sounds like prey not like litter mate and stimulates them more PLUS, at 5 months IMO the window for this to work has long since closed. Bigger breeds develop at different rates to the medium breeds I'm used to but with mine, if they bothered an older dog at 5 months they would get a roar and a snap - 'stop bothering me you annoying brat'. If she was mine I'd be using my best growly voice and saying a loud NO. If she ignores you physically remove her from the situation (outside, crate, behind a baby gate) no treats for obeying "eventually", no approval for anything except instantly stopping the unwanted behaviour. Simply don't allow her to bite your hand, if she tries grab her lip or cheek or put your thumb down on her thumb and hold her jaw as already suggested. Hold firmly, no need to shake, pinch or do or say anything, just hold her firmly and make her stop the behaviour on her own - when she does release her and do nothing. No praise for obeying "eventually" remember! She will probably take a couple of days to realise this is no longer a fun game. THEN you have to teach her that it's OK for you to touch her mouth (check teeth, pull lips (gently!), tickle whiskers etc) but it's not OK for her mouth to touch your hand. Don't confuse the issue by trying to teach both things at once. Exactly, that is what I'm starting to realise. Instead of her seeing the good behaviour as a reward, she's seeing the reward is for 'if i bite and let go, i score a treat!'. with the tongue technique, is that pressing under or on the tongue? In the other forum it said under but I wasn't sure how I would get under her tongue haha (sorry, first time dog owner and trying my best!!) I will definitely start implementing this tonight. Thanks for the help! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StaffSam Posted March 27, 2013 Share Posted March 27, 2013 Hi...Sandra777 has some great points...I was trying everything too... Now it is just monotonous she bites we our thumb in and over it goes again! We are being very consistent with it as it is not a pleasant time nor do you want it to remain an issue obviously.. I have noticed that she is slowing down on the bites... Just today she started to do a gentle bite on my hand ( better then usual) but looked at me and thought better of it and ctually chilled for a moment or two for me to pat her! Still working on the first morning greeting where she bites and tries to drag your sock off... That is an immediate pick up and bck in bed! When I first started the thumb in mouth I was frustrated as she just keep repeating and so did I, however seems we had a little break through! I have a 13 week old staffy now... I lost my boy Akita 2 years ago... He was 12 always love and miss him!Good luck with it all Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StaffSam Posted March 27, 2013 Share Posted March 27, 2013 Oh sorry and yes it is under the tongue and I think you press down... Sometimes you do miss and get on the tongue but then I re aim it either straight in or in the side of mouth... However you can Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cnsunshine Posted March 27, 2013 Author Share Posted March 27, 2013 Hi...Sandra777 has some great points...I was trying everything too... Now it is just monotonous she bites we our thumb in and over it goes again! We are being very consistent with it as it is not a pleasant time nor do you want it to remain an issue obviously.. I have noticed that she is slowing down on the bites... Just today she started to do a gentle bite on my hand ( better then usual) but looked at me and thought better of it and ctually chilled for a moment or two for me to pat her! Still working on the first morning greeting where she bites and tries to drag your sock off... That is an immediate pick up and bck in bed! When I first started the thumb in mouth I was frustrated as she just keep repeating and so did I, however seems we had a little break through! I have a 13 week old staffy now... I lost my boy Akita 2 years ago... He was 12 always love and miss him!Good luck with it all That's so good! I'm glad you're seeing the results. I feel like I've been trying everything, hopefully the tongue pressing will set her straight. I will definitely talk to my partner about it and we'll start it tonight after we get home from work. I'm sorry to hear about your boy, I hope your staffy gives you the same joy. :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Justrace Posted March 27, 2013 Share Posted March 27, 2013 I had been keeping my 14 week old puppy in a play pen inside when we are not home & only allowing him to play in the garden when I was home. Over the last few weeks I have been gradually allowing him more outside time by himself building up to longer periods. This week I started leaving him outside when I have been going out, this has resulted in his nipping being so much better and when he is inside, he is much more relaxed. I am in & out all day with school & kinder runs and the longest that he has had to be left outside (so far)has been 3 hours. We also can section off our yard so that he is safe. I have only had two pups before this one & never had them confined through the day and I can't remember having had much issues with them nipping. (Not saying that this is the cause of it, I might have had not nippy pups before) I wonder if you could have an area set up outside to keep her busy to get rid of some of that excess energy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sandra777 Posted March 27, 2013 Share Posted March 27, 2013 (edited) Oh sorry and yes it is under the tongue and I think you press down... Sometimes you do miss and get on the tongue but then I re aim it either straight in or in the side of mouth... However you can Pretty much this :). On the tongue is probably less harsh but if you miss, doesn't really matter. Just watch out if you have long fingernails - the plan isn't to gouge out lumps of flesh Generally it's a matter of holding the jaw rather than pressure on the tongue itself - just a different version of grabbing the cheek or lip. Not something I'd recommend for small delicate dogs incidentally! Edited March 27, 2013 by Sandra777 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StaffSam Posted March 27, 2013 Share Posted March 27, 2013 Thanks cnsunshine! All the best with your huge bundle of girl.. Stay strong and consistent! Keep us updated with how you go.Justrace I have been the same... Previously no hippiness in pup but do now with new pup Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StaffSam Posted March 27, 2013 Share Posted March 27, 2013 Lol nippiness not hippiness.... Silly auto corrector Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StaffSam Posted March 27, 2013 Share Posted March 27, 2013 Yep Sandra 777... Though I have been putting light pressure on bottom of mouth under tongue.. And jaw area.. She dosent seem to love it but it dosent hurt her either... Hopefully I am getting it right! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cnsunshine Posted March 27, 2013 Author Share Posted March 27, 2013 We keep her inside a pen in the living room while we're at work. Although we have a small yard, we also have an apartment next to us and we've seen the kids throw things off the balcony into someone else's yard so we've chosen to not leave her there during the day unless we can supervise her. just curious, my partner is worried that we're spending too much time with her? When we're not playing or feeding her, she follows us around and bites us. Could it be that she can't relax? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StaffSam Posted March 27, 2013 Share Posted March 27, 2013 Yep I think that may be a good idea re kids next door to supervise! How big is pen as she is quite big? Can you confine to a larger part of house but still safely? Unsure re other issues... She probably is very pleased to see you and wants attention from you? Does she eventually chill out and laze around with you during the evening? Don't know I will leave that bit for those with more knowledge.. All dogs have diff personalities Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cnsunshine Posted March 27, 2013 Author Share Posted March 27, 2013 Yep I think that may be a good idea re kids next door to supervise! How big is pen as she is quite big? Can you confine to a larger part of house but still safely? Unsure re other issues... She probably is very pleased to see you and wants attention from you? Does she eventually chill out and laze around with you during the evening? Don't know I will leave that bit for those with more knowledge.. All dogs have diff personalities the pen is about 3m2 and she's 18 kgs? we've put a video on her before while we were at work to see what she gets up to (do we sound a bit too obsessive?)and she spent most of the day sleeping. she doesn't really chill out, if she's not eating (about 1 an hour for frozen kong and bone) or training or playing with us then she'll follow us. Unfortunately we have open plan living so we can't block off part of the house for her. i did try a few times where i'd leave her downstairs and hide upstairs, then sneak down to see what she would do (yes, we're weird)and she'll be chewing into our cushions which she knows she isn't allowed. i'm just trying to figure out if there is a reason she might be biting us besides the whole puppy teething. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cnsunshine Posted March 27, 2013 Author Share Posted March 27, 2013 I just got home and she started biting me straight away after she had her pee. I did the whole thumb under the tongue and even over the tongue. she struggled alot and fought back and bit me even harder. if this how its meant to be? my hands are throbbing and burning right now from her teeth and i feel like i'm ready to cry. i haven't said a word to her, everytime i come close to talk to her she bites my hand. can you please tell me if i'm doing it right? I've done it a few times already, obviously it might not work straight away but am i on the right track? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StaffSam Posted March 27, 2013 Share Posted March 27, 2013 Hang in there! I totally understand that it is not pleasant!!! It does depend on positioning on thumb... I know I haven't quite got it when she continues to bite me.. When I get it right it seems like she can't bite me and she will struggle and then try to pull away so I release... Did you look at the answer Nekhbet gave me with exactly how to do it? I'm unsure if you get immediate results... I didn't with mine.. It is like it took a bit to sink in . I know for me when things got nuts I'd walk away out of room and leave her and she hated that too! I know it is a difficult process and I have been teary too previously! I know it is something that littles do but maybe she is teething also??? I hope someone can help you further with it! I have read a lot of Nekhbet advice through the forums and she seems very respected perhaps you can contact?? I wish I could help more but I'd be guessing because I don't have that extensive knowledge and that's not helpful.... Pls keep updated Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sandra777 Posted March 27, 2013 Share Posted March 27, 2013 (edited) I would suggest that as she's probably a bit bigger than the pups I'm used to, you grab her by the collar at the same time. You need to be stern and consistent - she's got away with this for 3 months, it's not going to change overnight and it's likely she will get worse before she gets better. If she is getting genuinely angry/aggressive though, stop immediately - definitely not something you want to esculate in to actual aggression. Edited March 27, 2013 by Sandra777 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mthetealady Posted March 27, 2013 Share Posted March 27, 2013 (edited) OP, we are having the exact same problem with our 9 week old Dalmation puppy. I know exactly what you mean, it really hurts when they bite! I have tried to stand very still when she bites my feet or nips at my jeans and this does work - she seems to lose interest when she doesn't get a big reaction. Sometimes it is REALLY hard not to react to her when she bites down so hard, though. The biting of our hands is a different matter altogether. At the moment, I feel like I can't play with her at all without sustaining an injury. Both my husband and I look like we have put our arms through a pane of glass, we are so scratched and punctured! The holding her jaw under her tongue works to stop her, but as soon as we release, she comes straight back for more. I know people say that you shouldn't use the crate as a punishment, but she has been going in there after particularly hard biting episodes, because she seems to be so overstimulated and the crate works to calm her down. Maybe your puppy is also getting very excited and then biting as well? Our pup really just seems to be playing, and biting is her fun version of really excited play...unless I am reading her all wrong. Ian Dunbar suggests teaching the puppy to learn to have 'settled' moments during play sessions, so that the puppy can remain under your control. We are going to work on this with Nellie from this point forward to see if it makes a difference to the mouthing. Edited March 27, 2013 by Mthetealady Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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