Ocd In Medium Sized 5 Month Old Pup.

[BlackJaq]

I think you sound like a very understanding, empathetic breeder and I agree with others who have said maybe offer back purchase price but make it clear that you do not intend on paying for further treatment unless they return the puppy.

Good on you for being so understanding, but I suggest you stop worrying about what else you coulda/shoulda/woulda done, if you know what I mean. It sounds like you did all the right things and you sold them a living, breathing creature, not a toaster with lifetime warranty. As someone else said, shit happens sometimes, despite everyone's best efforts.

It makes me a little sad that the puppy owner seems to be trying to lay blame on you when you did everything to try and breed as healthy a litter as possible.. sometimes people seem to forget that just because a puppy comes form a registered breeder does not mean they have to be 100% perfect, it just means the breeder is doing everything in their power to try and produce the best litter possible.

I hope the puppy owner comes to realize how lucky he is with such a good breeder and I also hope the puppy will receive successful treatment and live a healthy, happy life as others have suggested is well possible with her condition :)

[WreckitWhippet]

As a breeder if you test when you can, don't knowingly bred from animals with an issue and raise your pups with love and care, at some point the new owners have to assume responsibility for that living creature in sickness and in health.

[bianca.a]

I have a slightly different experience but my then 10 month old GSD(now 17 months) was diagnosed with severe HD. I notified the breeder as soon as I found out. Not wanting anything from her but to let her know. She is a good breeder who does all the health checks and I was blown away when she offered me the purchase price back as she knew I was going to go ahead with surgery. I didn't want to accept as I put it down to really crappy luck on my behalf. My ex insisted we take her up on her offer.

Anywhoo over $8000 dollars later and he is recovering from the first surgery (will no doubt need the other side done next year).

But I think if you do offer a refund you have gone above and beyond. Some times crappy things happen, there are no guarantees with any life.

[Pillow]

I think you have done everything you could, but just because something hasn't shown up for many generations doesn't mean the issue isn't genetic. If something is reccesive it can be hidden for generations. I say this because things can get ugly when the breeder assumes the owner has been irresponsible with the dog. Sometimes no one is to blame - genetics can be a bitch.

Yes I agree with you Megan. It is why I immediately went to "my responsibility". I do my testing but some still don't as it is not required. There was a time when you couldn't test. There are dogs back in my lines and every ones else's who we don't know if they were carriers of this that or the other. Our knowledge of them is based on what was and becomes apparent. I feel responsible in some way and not because I haven't done the right thing. I bred a pup that has a diagnosis of OCD. There is a lot of information and differing opinion, in studies, amongst vets and breeders and owners. I am not convinced that I shouldn't take responsibility because I started breeding the breed I have now when testing for anything was never a consideration. I did it anyway. I did it because I hoped to avoid what I am feeling right now. I hoped no one who bought a pup from me would have to feel like they do. I agree Megan, genetics is a bitch.

[tdierikx]

As a breeder if you test when you can, don't knowingly bred from animals with an issue and raise your pups with love and care, at some point the new owners have to assume responsibility for that living creature in sickness and in health.

^^

I agree 100%

T.

[Pillow]

I can account for all the pups from this mating and a previous litter 3 years ago. I can account for many of the pups sired by the dad with another bitch. I can account for the pups in a litter with this mum to another dog. Can account for all siblings of the sire. Can account for some of the siblings of grandma and some for grandfather.

There's a combined UK universities animal health group ... so a reliable source.

http://www.ufaw.org.uk/SHOULDEROSTEOCHONDROSISBULLTERRIER.php (their site deals with it in each breed separately, it's not saying only found in BT's).

They say that OCD is found in large & giant breeds, but some smaller, too.

Most importantly:

It is likely that affected puppies can be born to unaffected parents (Hazelwinkel & Nap 2009). Detecting carriers - those which carry and may pass on the gene(s) but which do not show signs of the disease themselves - is not currently possible.

As affected puppies can be born to unaffected parents ... and there's no present way of detecting carriers, there was no way you could prevent it occurring. That group also says that, while it seems genes are implicated, the gene or combination of genes associated with OCD hasn't been identified.

The genes responsible have yet to be determined.

Also, on another site, a Veterinary Radiologist points to something environmental perhaps triggering an underlying predisposition:

With OCD of the shoulder, lameness generally first occurs between 4 and 9 months and may be associated with a fall or accident playing with another dog. Lateral radiographs of the shoulder will reveal a flattening of the humeral head.

http://www.aztec-net.com/~lofrancokuvasz/health.html

I can't see how you could've done anything to prevent it ... given there's no screening possible for carriers & unaffected dogs can produce an affected puppy & an environmental incident may be necessary to trigger it.

The way you're searching out information about the disorder shows you're a decent, caring breeder.

That is great information. Thank-you also for your comment Mita, I appreciate it.

[Pillow]

Thank-you to everyone, who by your responses have helped me work through a very emotional situation. I don't want to sound like I was making too much of it but it is important to me how I breed, why I do and just generally in life people's feelings are important to me. I am on the downside years and take responsibility for what I do.

To maybe put closure to the thread: I am so grateful for the assistance you all have given me. This has been a heartbreaking situation I have never experienced before. It appears from my vet's viewpoint and what I have read I may be lucky in that regard. I will not breed these two again. I will call the owner's to-morrow and invite myself for a cuppa. Talk and listen. Talk about the things I discussed with the vet and my suggestions he agreed he would talk about with the owners of the pup when they came in for the first treatment. Hand over the purchase price in cash as a contribution to treatment. Be very happy to bring the little girl home if they prefer. Be available to talk about how things are going as time goes on.

I can sleep well tonight knowing and believing I gave it my best. Thank-you every-one.

[shapeshifter]

I know it's not dogs but OCD happens in a lot of horses, it's not a genetic thing it's purely environmental. How does it happen, to much feed way too soon, which then puts way too much pressure on the bones, ligaments, muscles etc. The horse owners know they are doing it, it's deliberate when horse have to look like they have muscle on muscle especially in the western horse industry.

I often see it in this area with dogs that are quite big for their ages and they are allowed to jump up on people and things, I tell people why they shouldn't do it but they don't care, their dogs, they'll do what they want.

The following I completely agree with as well as what you are doing:

As a breeder if you test when you can, don't knowingly bred from animals with an issue and raise your pups with love and care, at some point the new owners have to assume responsibility for that living creature in sickness and in health.

Edited March 23, 2013 by shapeshifter

[mita]

As a breeder if you test when you can, don't knowingly bred from animals with an issue and raise your pups with love and care, at some point the new owners have to assume responsibility for that living creature in sickness and in health.

As a pet owner, I totally agree with this. If it were me that had obtained the puppy from Pillow, I'd look at the situation from just that angle.

Given all the objective evidence from current reliable sources, I can't see anything that could've been done to prevent it.

So, despite Pillow's decent offer to refund purchase price to help with treatment.... as a pet owner, I wouldn't take it (speaking only for myself).

What would matter for me, would be dealing with a breeder who went straight into action, as Pillow did, to research this condition which can come out of the blue... and whose origin & genesis is not crystal clear. And who so genuinely cared about the pup... and my situation (as Pillow does, too). I'd count myself fortunate.

Edited March 24, 2013 by mita

[goldenluv]

Thanks Rebanne. I had thought of refunding the purchase price as a way to help with treatment. What did have me thinking though was that if this treatment wasn't successful I may be expected to continue to pay for any further requirements done the track. So I am deliberating between what may an ethical decision or a foolish one. I appreciate your thoughts.

if you have offered to take the dog back and they said no, then they are responsible for there baby

BUT I think it is nice of you to offer the puppy price back to help with the cost of things, anything after that is up to them

[Christina]

Hand over the purchase price in cash as a contribution to treatment. Be very happy to bring the little girl home if they prefer. Be available to talk about how things are going as time goes on.

I can sleep well tonight knowing and believing I gave it my best. Thank-you every-one.

This is what I would probably do too however I would pay the cash directly to the vet.

I would also give a receipt & keep a copy stating what you have done & the conditions of this. Sometimes things can go awry later so you need this. Hope it all turns out ok.