Ocd In Medium Sized 5 Month Old Pup.

[juice]

Just a random thought, you said 2 pups went to the same house, did they rough and tumble too much together?

[Pillow]

Just a random thought, you said 2 pups went to the same house, did they rough and tumble too much together?

Yes, Juice. It's why I mentioned it and the older girl as well. It certainly could be a possibility.

[Pillow]

It sounds like you have a good basis for questioning environmental factors instead of genetics. This is the article I was thinking of: http://www.offa.org/pdf/hovanart.pdf

Is an interesting read, and reminds me to consider lateral individuals in breedings as well as vertical.

Thank-you Aloysha. I will read it.

[Pillow]

I know of a number of performance dogs who had OCD as youngsters and went on to make a full recovery and have long agility/flyball careers, some of them reaching championship status in their sports.

Where is the OCD? Shoulder is apparently the best place to get it :) My sister's dog has it in one of her hocks but it was never operated on as she is purely a pet. She had 4 shots of cartrophen at 12months (when it was first diagnosed) and has had no issues since. One pup we bred had it in his shoulder and you wouldn't know it anymore, he was competing in agility as soon as he turned 18months. His was injury related (chasing a frisbee at 6 months old on frosty ground). He was a prime candidate too- purely commercial puppy diet, growing way too fast, and injured himself during a growth spurt.

In layman's terms OCD is essentially a bit of cartilage that has broken off while the joint is wide open during the growth phase. The faster growing the pup, the wider the joints can open, and the more chance that some exposed cartilage can be damaged, especially if pups are not kept quiet etc at this time. Surgery removes the bit of cartilage that is floating around in the joint causing issues, and the dog in theory goes on to lead a perfectly normal life :) Obviously that is in an ideal world, but that is how it is supposed to happen. Life has no guarantees of course.

[Pillow]

I know of a number of performance dogs who had OCD as youngsters and went on to make a full recovery and have long agility/flyball careers, some of them reaching championship status in their sports.

Where is the OCD? Shoulder is apparently the best place to get it :) My sister's dog has it in one of her hocks but it was never operated on as she is purely a pet. She had 4 shots of cartrophen at 12months (when it was first diagnosed) and has had no issues since. One pup we bred had it in his shoulder and you wouldn't know it anymore, he was competing in agility as soon as he turned 18months. His was injury related (chasing a frisbee at 6 months old on frosty ground). He was a prime candidate too- purely commercial puppy diet, growing way too fast, and injured himself during a growth spurt.

In layman's terms OCD is essentially a bit of cartilage that has broken off while the joint is wide open during the growth phase. The faster growing the pup, the wider the joints can open, and the more chance that some exposed cartilage can be damaged, especially if pups are not kept quiet etc at this time. Surgery removes the bit of cartilage that is floating around in the joint causing issues, and the dog in theory goes on to lead a perfectly normal life :) Obviously that is in an ideal world, but that is how it is supposed to happen. Life has no guarantees of course.

Sounds positive then DC. This little one has it in her elbow. I have seen the x-rays (The owner says it's in her knee. He is upset.) She is starting her 4 X cartrophen shots this week and is been crated. I am trying to read a lot and ask questions of others. It seems early diagnosis, and treatment is a real plus.

If the management is successful that's great. If it's not successful could it be considered that doing the op immediately would have been a better solution?

Please don't forget my dilemma. Am I responsible in any way? As I said I have offered full refund and pup return. They don't want to return the pup. Should I offer to assist financially with treatment?

[Rebanne]

Please don't forget my dilemma. Am I responsible in any way? As I said I have offered full refund and pup return. They don't want to return the pup. Should I offer to assist financially with treatment?

No I do not believe you are responsible in any way. Sh!t happens. You are dealing with a living creature. You have done the right thing by x-raying the parents etc. Sometimes life just throws us a curve ball and everyone has to deal with it. If it makes you feel better you could refund the purchase price but make it clear it is not an admitance of guilt nor that you are going to help out any more financially. The owners have to accept these things can just happen. You also do not know if the enviroment contributed to the problem. Life just sucks sometimes and everybody has to just get on with it.

[DeltaCharlie]

With the pup we bred they tried the conservative route first, injections and lots of crate rest (6-8 weeks worth). Only after that time did they then decide to go with the surgery. Recovery isn't hampered by waiting (so long as they are not in a position to further injure themselves) so if it was my dog I would probably go conservative first.

We offered to pay for the treatment and surgery but it wasn't taken up by the new owner. Difference being the pup went to someone we have known quite well for many years. So not a run of the mill puppy sale as such. I don't know the situation with you and this puppy owner, but you have to do what feels right. I know of an ACD that developed OCD (environment related) and the breeder paid for all treatment costs.

[Pillow]

Please don't forget my dilemma. Am I responsible in any way? As I said I have offered full refund and pup return. They don't want to return the pup. Should I offer to assist financially with treatment?

No I do not believe you are responsible in any way. Sh!t happens. You are dealing with a living creature. You have done the right thing by x-raying the parents etc. Sometimes life just throws us a curve ball and everyone has to deal with it. If it makes you feel better you could refund the purchase price but make it clear it is not an admitance of guilt nor that you are going to help out any more financially. The owners have to accept these things can just happen. You also do not know if the enviroment contributed to the problem. Life just sucks sometimes and everybody has to just get on with it.

Thanks Rebanne. I had thought of refunding the purchase price as a way to help with treatment. What did have me thinking though was that if this treatment wasn't successful I may be expected to continue to pay for any further requirements done the track. So I am deliberating between what may an ethical decision or a foolish one. I appreciate your thoughts.

[Rebanne]

Thanks Rebanne. I had thought of refunding the purchase price as a way to help with treatment. What did have me thinking though was that if this treatment wasn't successful I may be expected to continue to pay for any further requirements done the track. So I am deliberating between what may an ethical decision or a foolish one. I appreciate your thoughts.

I don't think it comes down to ethics. You did the tests, thats ethics, what more could you have done?

[Pillow]

Thanks Rebanne. I had thought of refunding the purchase price as a way to help with treatment. What did have me thinking though was that if this treatment wasn't successful I may be expected to continue to pay for any further requirements done the track. So I am deliberating between what may an ethical decision or a foolish one. I appreciate your thoughts.

I don't think it comes down to ethics. You did the tests, thats ethics, what more could you have done?

Yes I have always done the testing and tested for other things that no-else considers necessary to test for. There is nothing more I could have done. I didn't breed without a great deal of thought. I have always said to those in my breed who think I test unnecessarily: there is no point in saying it's never been a problem, when in 20 years time how would I know, if I don't have the test results to support that. I have never had a problem with a pup and think I am in shock. I feel for the owner.

[juice]

I think the problem is if you start to pay towards costs where do you stop? they will then expect more.

I would go with what Rebanne suggests, either refund the purchase price and make sure they understand thats all you will give, or leave it as your current offer of a return.

I wouldn't consider it your fault at all, you have no idea how the dog was kept, only what you have been told.

What happens if they were roughing too much and the other one develops something, what will they expect then?

My feeling is to do what you have already done, offer a refund for return of pup, if they don't take it up, thats it.

once you start to offer assistance you are setting yourself up to be an endless pit of money, and they will see it as admission.

[Dame Aussie]

I think you did everything you could. As a pet owner I would be upset there was a problem but I wouldnt blame the breeder or expect them to pay or even refund the cost of the pup.

These are living beings, things can go wrong even if everything is done properly.

[ness]

I think as a breeder you should still display empathy and offer moral support and understanding if nothing else. Not saying you aren't but sometimes its not so much the financial heartache in these situations but the emotional heartache.

Problems happen despite all the best intentions in the world.

[mita]

I can account for all the pups from this mating and a previous litter 3 years ago. I can account for many of the pups sired by the dad with another bitch. I can account for the pups in a litter with this mum to another dog. Can account for all siblings of the sire. Can account for some of the siblings of grandma and some for grandfather.

There's a combined UK universities animal health group ... so a reliable source.

http://www.ufaw.org.uk/SHOULDEROSTEOCHONDROSISBULLTERRIER.php (their site deals with it in each breed separately, it's not saying only found in BT's).

They say that OCD is found in large & giant breeds, but some smaller, too.

Most importantly:

It is likely that affected puppies can be born to unaffected parents (Hazelwinkel & Nap 2009). Detecting carriers - those which carry and may pass on the gene(s) but which do not show signs of the disease themselves - is not currently possible.

As affected puppies can be born to unaffected parents ... and there's no present way of detecting carriers, there was no way you could prevent it occurring. That group also says that, while it seems genes are implicated, the gene or combination of genes associated with OCD hasn't been identified.

The genes responsible have yet to be determined.

Also, on another site, a Veterinary Radiologist points to something environmental perhaps triggering an underlying predisposition:

With OCD of the shoulder, lameness generally first occurs between 4 and 9 months and may be associated with a fall or accident playing with another dog. Lateral radiographs of the shoulder will reveal a flattening of the humeral head.

http://www.aztec-net.com/~lofrancokuvasz/health.html

I can't see how you could've done anything to prevent it ... given there's no screening possible for carriers & unaffected dogs can produce an affected puppy & an environmental incident may be necessary to trigger it.

The way you're searching out information about the disorder shows you're a decent, caring breeder.

Edited March 23, 2013 by mita

[megan_]

I think you have done everything you could, but just because something hasn't shown up for many generations doesn't mean the issue isn't genetic. If something is reccesive it can be hidden for generations. I say this because things can get ugly when the breeder assumes the owner has been irresponsible with the dog. Sometimes no one is to blame - genetics can be a bitch.

[Rebanne]

I think as a breeder you should still display empathy and offer moral support and understanding if nothing else. Not saying you aren't but sometimes its not so much the financial heartache in these situations but the emotional heartache.

Problems happen despite all the best intentions in the world.

as someone who has bought a "lemon" in the past, resulting in that dog being PTS at 20 months old, all I wanted was the above.

[Pillow]

I think the problem is if you start to pay towards costs where do you stop? they will then expect more.

I would go with what Rebanne suggests, either refund the purchase price and make sure they understand thats all you will give, or leave it as your current offer of a return.

I wouldn't consider it your fault at all, you have no idea how the dog was kept, only what you have been told.

What happens if they were roughing too much and the other one develops something, what will they expect then?

My feeling is to do what you have already done, offer a refund for return of pup, if they don't take it up, thats it.

once you start to offer assistance you are setting yourself up to be an endless pit of money, and they will see it as admission.

The decision is a difficult one and I understand your about admission. I appreciate your thoughts Juice.

[Pillow]

With the pup we bred they tried the conservative route first, injections and lots of crate rest (6-8 weeks worth). Only after that time did they then decide to go with the surgery. Recovery isn't hampered by waiting (so long as they are not in a position to further injure themselves) so if it was my dog I would probably go conservative first.

We offered to pay for the treatment and surgery but it wasn't taken up by the new owner. Difference being the pup went to someone we have known quite well for many years. So not a run of the mill puppy sale as such. I don't know the situation with you and this puppy owner, but you have to do what feels right. I know of an ACD that developed OCD (environment related) and the breeder paid for all treatment costs.

Thanks for your response regarding recovery not being hampered by going the management method first. I am encouraged by that. I have sold 3 pups into this family group over the years and a fourth pup has been requested. In view of that I take it that my standing has been a good one. They are good and responsible people. The (adult)son said after they received the diagnosis his mother had said to him to call me as I would take the pup back.

I appreciate your feedback DC.

[Pillow]

I think as a breeder you should still display empathy and offer moral support and understanding if nothing else. Not saying you aren't but sometimes its not so much the financial heartache in these situations but the emotional heartache.

Problems happen despite all the best intentions in the world.

as someone who has bought a "lemon" in the past, resulting in that dog being PTS at 20 months old, all I wanted was the above.

I understand the heartache too of a pup being PTS at close to 6 months. I bought her from an interstate breeder who I hadn't met until I flew to pick up my pup. We did the round of vets and when 2 specialists told me there was no real hope for her, I made the decision to PTS. The breeder of the pup is a much loved friend today. Thank-you for the sad reminder of how that feels (meaning in a good way). I don't lack empathy which is why I am in shock and great sadness as to how to do the right thing by the owner. I appreciate your thoughts Rebanne, it is a reminder for me to show the empathy not just feel it.

[tdierikx]

The thing is that you have offered to give them their money back and to take the pup back - and I'm thinking that you'd then be spending money in vet fees yourself to rectify the problem, yes?

But the new owners don't want to return the pup to you - just for you to cover the medical expenses to rectify the problem... which can turn a good relationship bad when they decide to go for the most expensive vet and treatment because someone else has stepped up to pay for it...

There is no 100% proof that the issue is a genetic one. You haven't had this issue arise before in how many years of breeding. And you test for everything genetic that you can actually test for.

I'm willing to wager a very large sum of money that if you weren't an ethical and responsible breeder of quality dogs, this issue would never have seen the light of day between you and your puppy buyer.

In all fairness, I'd offer them the cost price of the pup back (or part thereof if they refuse to return said pup to you), and chalk it up to experience. No admission of any fault by you or your breeding program either.

T.