Ocd In Medium Sized 5 Month Old Pup.

[Pillow]

I have just had a pup I bred diagnosed with OCD. Poor little girl now 5 months. Both parents were hip and elbow scored excellent. Grandma and Grandad on sires side both scored and owned by me. No problems. No problems in other pups from this mating (2)or from pups of litters bred from either mum or dad separately. This is a real surprise and concern for me. Where did it come from?

[rebelsquest]

OCD is not necessarily genetic - rapid growth, nutrition and how the pup is raised can all play a part, in my understanding.

[Pillow]

Thanks for that. Does the genetic pre-disposition have to be there for environmental factors to affect the pup?

[espinay2]

Cut and pasted from my webpage here

Osteochondritis dissecans, commonly known as OCD, is a disease of the cartilage

that can affect various joints in a dog. It most commonly affects the shoulder,

but can also manifest in the elbows, hips or knees (stifle). OCD is a

developmental condition that most frequently occurs in rapidly growing large

and giant breed dogs, typically between 6 and 9 months of age and more often in

male dogs.

The cause of OCD is considered to be multifactorial. It is

thought that there are several factors that contribute to the formation of OCD

lesions including trauma to the joint, genetics, rapid growth, hormone

imbalances, and nutrition. Prevention includes careful selective breeding that

avoids the breeding of animals with a history of OCD. Young dogs should not

undergo strenuous activity that jars or impacts the joints, particularly

jumping activities. Providing a good balanced diet that promotes even,

sustained growth is also recommended.

While OFA sais this, if there is no history in your lines, then I would be looking at first at environmental factors - what the pup was fed, was it allowed to do lots of jumping around/up and down, taken for very long walks on hard surfaces or had lots of rough play particularly with a larger dog which might have contributed to damage. Was the pup desexed and when? Did it seem to grow faster and larger than other pups or was it allowed to get overweight? At the same time though I would be paying close attention to siblings etc and watching for any further trends to be on the safe side.

Edited March 23, 2013 by espinay2

[Pillow]

Cut and pasted from my webpage here

Osteochondritis Dessicans

(OCD)

Osteochondritis dissecans, commonly known as

OCD, is a disease of the cartilage that can affect various joints in a dog. It

most commonly affects the shoulder, but can also manifest in the elbows, hips

or knees (stifle). OCD is a developmental condition that most frequently occurs

in rapidly growing large and giant breed dogs, typically between 6 and 9 months

of age and more often in male dogs.

The cause of OCD is considered to

be multifactorial. It is thought that there are several factors that contribute

to the formation of OCD lesions including trauma to the joint, genetics, rapid

growth, hormone imbalances, and nutrition. Prevention includes careful

selective breeding that avoids the breeding of animals with a history of OCD.

Young dogs should not undergo strenuous activity that jars or impacts the

joints, particularly jumping activities. Providing a good balanced diet that

promotes even, sustained growth is also recommended.

If there is no histroy of it in your lines, then I would be looking first to environmental factors - what was the pup fed, was it allowed to do lots of jumping around/up and down, taken for long walks had lots of rough play etc that might have done some damage. Also what it was fed. Was the pup desexed and when?

ttention to siblings etc though and watching for any further trends just to be on the safe side. Hopefully it will be a one off.

[Pillow]

No previous history. Pup left me at 9 weeks. She was a big pup. Was raised on Advance and owners have continued that diet. I have already advised them to get off Growth. This pup was 1 of 2 which went to the same household who already have an older dog bred by me. I have said the pup can come back home to me with full refund.

When owner rang me I went straight to the VET who diagnosed. This vet has also been my Vet for 14 years. The Vet said I had done my part in doing all tests. However I am trying to determine my responsibility as the breeder. Can OCD appear in a pup even when going back 3 generations all has been clear. Can it appear ONLY due to environmental factors.

[Pillow]

And please don't misunderstand I am trying to determine my responsibility so I can do what needs to be done. Not to avoid responsibility in any way.

[DeltaCharlie]

OCD is generally not considered to be a genetic thing. Yes, there can be a genetic component to it, but that is more a genetic predisposition to growing too big too quickly (a big contributing factor to OCD) than to the condition itself.

I would be looking at environmental factors that may have contributed to it.

- Has the dog been doing too much during growth spurts?

- Have they been on a predominantly dry puppy diet (a big no-no in my books for large or fast growing breeds)?

- Have they sustained a seemingly minor injury during a growth spurt?

- Have they been allowed to chase balls/frisbees/sticks etc? We never allow chasing of anything until maturity, all fetching and play is to a toy that has already stopped moving to minimise the risk of turning/sliding injuries on growing joints.

- Are they living in an environment where stairs/rock walls/ledges/furniture are all freely accessible? Just because they have raised others in the same environment doesn't rule anything out, they may have just been lucky with the others (or unlucky with this one).

Edited to answer: Yes, it can occur from purely environmental factors. In most cases, from my understanding, this is usually the case and it has nothing to due with genetics at all (other than being a medium-large breed).

Edited March 23, 2013 by DeltaCharlie

[Pillow]

OCD is generally not considered to be a genetic thing. Yes, there can be a genetic component to it, but that is more a genetic predisposition to growing too big too quickly (a big contributing factor to OCD) than to the condition itself.

I would be looking at environmental factors that may have contributed to it.

- Has the dog been doing too much during growth spurts?

- Have they been on a predominantly dry puppy diet (a big no-no in my books for large or fast growing breeds)?

- Have they sustained a seemingly minor injury during a growth spurt?

- Have they been allowed to chase balls/frisbees/sticks etc? We never allow chasing of anything until maturity, all fetching and play is to a toy that has already stopped moving to minimise the risk of turning/sliding injuries on growing joints.

- Are they living in an environment where stairs/rock walls/ledges/furniture are all freely accessible? Just because they have raised others in the same environment doesn't rule anything out, they may have just been lucky with the others (or unlucky with this one).

Edited to answer: Yes, it can occur from purely environmental factors. In most cases, from my understanding, this is usually the case and it has nothing to due with genetics at all (other than being a medium-large breed).

[Pillow]

Thank-you DC. It is difficult to raise the environmental factors with an upset owner who doesn't seem to understand the condition. I don't want him to feel "blamed" or sound like I am avoiding responsibility either. The son of the owner of the other 2 is insisting in his words "it's been there since birth, the vet said so. He didn't see the vet when the puppy was taken in due to lameness. I want to do the right thing by the owners. They do not want to return the pup (neither would I in the same circumstances). I am genuinely upset for them and for the pup.

Can anyone help give an opinion how you might (as the breeder) address the situation if in the same circumstances.

[Rebanne]

Have x-rays been taken? How big is the chip? What has been suggested surgery wise? My understanding is once the chip is removed, if done asap once diagnosed, there is very little to none long term effects.

In greyhounds it often occurs around the 6 - 8 month mark, the chip is removed the dogs still go on to race.

[BlackJaq]

Maybe try posting in the "breeders" section, I am sure there are many other breeders who had to deal with disgruntled owners when a puppy was found to have an issue. They should be able to offer you advice on what your responsibilities and rights are :)

ETA: How do they know it has been there "since birth"? Is there an x-ray to prove this claim? And how does he know what the vet said when he wasn't there?

Edited March 23, 2013 by BlackJaq

[Pillow]

Maybe try posting in the "breeders" section, I am sure there are many other breeders who had to deal with disgruntled owners when a puppy was found to have an issue. They should be able to offer you advice on what your responsibilities and rights are :)

ETA: How do they know it has been there "since birth"? Is there an x-ray to prove this claim? And how does he know what the vet said when he wasn't there?

Thanks BJ. He is an upset man who purchased a pup from an accredited breeder who now has a whole lot of expense and limitations now placed on his pup. I understand it completely. No no evidence of anything prior to his little girl going lame.

I tried to post in Breeders Section wouldn't let me although I am a reg breeder with blue ribbon membership. I probably am not knowing how to post there correctly. If someone can tell me that would be great.

[Rebanne]

are you talking Osteochondritis Dissecans (OCD) or elbow dysplasia? Because if you remove the chip in OCD there should be little to no long term problems.

[Alyosha]

You have to PM troy to get access - there is a pinned thread in there that will tell you what info to send him.

It may not be genetic, but lateral and not just vertical pedigrees can offer a whole lot more insight. Lateral pedigrees take in siblings in each generation. I had an article done on it in relation to HD and it was very interesting. Will try and find it.

[Pillow]

are you talking Osteochondritis Dissecans (OCD) or elbow dysplasia? Because if you remove the chip in OCD there should be little to no long term problems.

Thanks Rebanne. Chip. Vet is reluctant to suggest op until other methods, 4 X injections and 6 week crating. The owners will be in for the first injection next week. He will ask would they like to see specialist.

[Pillow]

Have x-rays been taken? How big is the chip? What has been suggested surgery wise? My understanding is once the chip is removed, if done asap once diagnosed, there is very little to none long term effects.

In greyhounds it often occurs around the 6 - 8 month mark, the chip is removed the dogs still go on to race.

Wow, that is fantastic news. I asked the vet what the prognosis was given his recommendation for treatment. He said "good, not great".

[DeltaCharlie]

I know of a number of performance dogs who had OCD as youngsters and went on to make a full recovery and have long agility/flyball careers, some of them reaching championship status in their sports.

Where is the OCD? Shoulder is apparently the best place to get it :) My sister's dog has it in one of her hocks but it was never operated on as she is purely a pet. She had 4 shots of cartrophen at 12months (when it was first diagnosed) and has had no issues since. One pup we bred had it in his shoulder and you wouldn't know it anymore, he was competing in agility as soon as he turned 18months. His was injury related (chasing a frisbee at 6 months old on frosty ground). He was a prime candidate too- purely commercial puppy diet, growing way too fast, and injured himself during a growth spurt.

In layman's terms OCD is essentially a bit of cartilage that has broken off while the joint is wide open during the growth phase. The faster growing the pup, the wider the joints can open, and the more chance that some exposed cartilage can be damaged, especially if pups are not kept quiet etc at this time. Surgery removes the bit of cartilage that is floating around in the joint causing issues, and the dog in theory goes on to lead a perfectly normal life :) Obviously that is in an ideal world, but that is how it is supposed to happen. Life has no guarantees of course.

[Pillow]

You have to PM troy to get access - there is a pinned thread in there that will tell you what info to send him.

It may not be genetic, but lateral and not just vertical pedigrees can offer a whole lot more insight. Lateral pedigrees take in siblings in each generation. I had an article done on it in relation to HD and it was very interesting. Will try and find it.

I would be grateful if you are able to find the article Aloysha. I can account for all the pups from this mating and a previous litter 3 years ago. I can account for many of the pups sired by the dad with another bitch. I can account for the pups in a litter with this mum to another dog. Can account for all siblings of the sire. Can account for some of the siblings of grandma and some for grandfather.

[Alyosha]

It sounds like you have a good basis for questioning environmental factors instead of genetics. This is the article I was thinking of: http://www.offa.org/pdf/hovanart.pdf

Is an interesting read, and reminds me to consider lateral individuals in breedings as well as vertical.