WreckitWhippet Posted March 26, 2013 Share Posted March 26, 2013 I don’t really understand the “ask your breeder and feed what they are” mentality. You are making the assumption that the breeder has done extensive research about the absolute best food to feed their puppies, and you are also making the assumption that there are no financial constraints on the breeder - maybe they are feeding what is affordable for them. What is wrong with the OP doing her own research? Breeders are not the only ones able to make informed judgements and do not have a monopoly on canine nutrition. The OP came on asking for other people’s opinions, which she was obviously going to consider as one aspect of her decision- making process and gets told to do as the breeder does rather than think for herself. Good on you OP for wanting the absolute best for your pup and asking questions. and when it all goes to hell in a hand basket, because a puppy buyer ignores breeder advice, who gets the blame ? the breeder Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chocolatelover Posted March 26, 2013 Share Posted March 26, 2013 Hence the research. If you honestly believe the breeder researched all the quality dry foods out there and came up with Advance then so be it. The OP said she chose it because it was Australian made which someone has stated is incorrect. My pup was fed Royal Canin but I did similar research to OP and decided that a food with the first ingredient as rice wasn't what I wanted to feed my dog. He is happy and healthy has no ill effects. Not all puppy buyers want to blame breeders for everything that goes wrong. We just tend to hear about the ones that do on this forum. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Salukifan Posted March 26, 2013 Share Posted March 26, 2013 (edited) Hence the research. If you honestly believe the breeder researched all the quality dry foods out there and came up with Advance then so be it. The OP said she chose it because it was Australian made which someone has stated is incorrect. My pup was fed Royal Canin but I did similar research to OP and decided that a food with the first ingredient as rice wasn't what I wanted to feed my dog. He is happy and healthy has no ill effects. Not all puppy buyers want to blame breeders for everything that goes wrong. We just tend to hear about the ones that do on this forum. And those of us who move in dog breeding circles hear about a hell of a lot more. I commend the OP for doing her research but a food that looks good on paper and has no proven track record for raising sound Great Dane puppies is a risk no matter how you look at it. This is probably one of the most challenging breeds to raise sound and a default position to take the advice of someone who's managed to raise healthy GD pups over any paper based research was given by me for one very obvious reason - it's worked before. Currently the breeder of this pup has done what the OP hasn't - raised sound GD pps to maturity. It certainly doesn't hurt to keep that thought paramount. Diet, exercise and pups is a very challenging area. The numbers of puppy buyers prepared to blame genes over husbandry when it all goes to hell is growing and the number of vets prepared to back them isn't small either. What was one vet comment that's stuck in my mind? "If it's a problem in a purebred dog, it's BOUND to have a genetic component". I commend the OP for doing her research but the person who is in the best position to give him/her advice over the years this pup will take to grow to maturity really IS the person who's whelped and raised him. If there are trust issues in the level of expertise this breeder has (as it seems there are) then maybe another breeder should be considered. Ah yes, Royal Canin - no idea which variety you're using if it doesn't have meat as the first ingredient (when the meat is considered as dehydrated, not raw) but yep, I've read the star reviews too. And yet, many sighthound people have successfully used it for years, and the proof that it's a good food for Whippets is not on a website but walking around in front of me. Certainly not the only food I'd recommend (and there's the rub - there is never ever only one BEST food) but it works for me. Fewer less debated topics than this one but I'll continue to default to suggestiing that puppy buyers use what's worked before. It's the pup who pays the price if the research fails to work in practice. If the OP is using a foreign made food, then I'd be checking GD forums in the country of origin before committing to the food. Let's hope the pup likes your choice too - as I said earlier, dogs don't read food reviews. Pups have a way of upsetting even the most carefully researched food plans. One is the reason I no longer feed a complete raw diet (refused point blank to eat it) and another is the reason I feed Royal Canin (only food he'll eat every time its offered). Edited March 26, 2013 by Haredown Whippets Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chocolatelover Posted March 26, 2013 Share Posted March 26, 2013 Well someone with Great Dane experience gave the opinion that she believes it is a low quality diet. So I guess it was a good thing the OP did some research before feeding it to her pup and didn't just go with the status quo. The Junior Lab Royal Canin has rice as the first ingredient. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sas Posted March 26, 2013 Share Posted March 26, 2013 (edited) My personal stance on it is yes do your research so you know when your Breeder gives you the diet sheet and you see something on there you disagree with you can have that discussion with your breeder. Buying a puppy isn't reglion isn't not about blind faith, I believe everyone should ask questions and not just get "Because" answers but actual factual answers. Our Great Dane Owners Guide was put together with factual infomation, clinical studies, information from breeders in the game over 20 years - I'd like to think it's some pretty solid info to use as a research base. Giant Breed diets are commonly confused as being all about the Protein level - but in fact it's about the phos:calc ratio. I don't believe many Vets really have a right to comment on Giant Breed diets as it's not something they're school in extensively unless it's something they set out to research themselves. We end up with a number of messed up dogs because Vets have told the owner to put the dog on an inappropriate diet as well as calcium supplements which is a big no no. 6 month old puppy gone wrong... Some conformation issues here granted. This puppy was fed an incorrect diet reccomended by the Breeder. Edited March 26, 2013 by sas Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
laurenic33 Posted March 26, 2013 Author Share Posted March 26, 2013 Wow intense. I still haven't said that Advance is in any way crap, just that there's better options out there. There are no 'trust' issues between myself and the breeder. But, if she honestly thought that Advance was the best choice then she would have told me that and recommended I stay on it. She didn't. She is happy for me to change and made it clear her choice is based on Australian made products (which someone here has stated Advance is not anyway). I have the breeders blessing so not sure why this has turned into a debate when all I was asking was what everyone here is feeding or has fed their Great Dane pups and why. Thank you everyone for your input and opinions, but I've made my choice now after researching the hell out of all the suitable options and I am happy with my decision :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
laurenic33 Posted March 26, 2013 Author Share Posted March 26, 2013 (edited) My personal stance on it is yes do your research so you know when your Breeder gives you the diet sheet and you see something on there you disagree with you can have that discussion with your breeder. Buying a puppy isn't reglion isn't not about blind faith, I believe everyone should ask questions and not just get "Because" answers but actual factual answers. Our Great Dane Owners Guide was put together with factual infomation, clinical studies, information from breeders in the game over 20 years - I'd like to think it's some pretty solid info to use as a research base. Giant Breed diets are commonly confused as being all about the Protein level - but in fact it's about the phos:calc ratio. I don't believe many Vets really have a right to comment on Giant Breed diets as it's not something they're school in extensively unless it's something they set out to research themselves. We end up with a number of messed up dogs because Vets have told the owner to put the dog on an inappropriate diet as well as calcium supplements which is a big no no. SAS, the document you linked me is fantastic and very informative - thank you for that. My choice of Holistic Select is indeed one of the suitable options listed on the document with appropriate calc/phos levels. Edited March 26, 2013 by laurenic33 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Salukifan Posted March 26, 2013 Share Posted March 26, 2013 1364332747[/url]' post='6158599']1364332445[/url]' post='6158593']My personal stance on it is yes do your research so you know when your Breeder gives you the diet sheet and you see something on there you disagree with you can have that discussion with your breeder. Buying a puppy isn't reglion isn't not about blind faith, I believe everyone should ask questions and not just get "Because" answers but actual factual answers. Our Great Dane Owners Guide was put together with factual infomation, clinical studies, information from breeders in the game over 20 years - I'd like to think it's some pretty solid info to use as a research base. Giant Breed diets are commonly confused as being all about the Protein level - but in fact it's about the phos:calc ratio. I don't believe many Vets really have a right to comment on Giant Breed diets as it's not something they're school in extensively unless it's something they set out to research themselves. We end up with a number of messed up dogs because Vets have told the owner to put the dog on an inappropriate diet as well as calcium supplements which is a big no no. SAS, the document you linked me is fantastic and very informative - thank you for that. My choice of Holistic Select is indeed one of the suitable options listed on the document with appropriate calc/phos levels. May I ask why Advance is not recommended on that document? It is recommended in that document Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sas Posted March 26, 2013 Share Posted March 26, 2013 (edited) Wow intense. I still haven't said that Advance is in any way crap, just that there's better options out there. There are no 'trust' issues between myself and the breeder. But, if she honestly thought that Advance was the best choice then she would have told me that and recommended I stay on it. She didn't. She is happy for me to change and made it clear her choice is based on Australian made products (which someone here has stated Advance is not anyway). I have the breeders blessing so not sure why this has turned into a debate when all I was asking was what everyone here is feeding or has fed their Great Dane pups and why. Thank you everyone for your input and opinions, but I've made my choice now after researching the hell out of all the suitable options and I am happy with my decision :) I said it was a low qualiety diet. Plenty of Breeders feed it, it doesn't mean they are a bad breeder. Like anything with knowledge comes change, not many people are really looking that indepth into the ingrediant panel yet or simply feed it because they get it discounted or free - I mean why else would you feed GMO corn and a kibble with 3 low quality fillers in the top 4? The only reason I started looking in depth because I kept seeing dogs who were fed what I thought were low quality ingrediants being sickly dogs, didn't look great or didn't seem to grow well etc. Now, in saying that there are plenty of dogs fed the absolute crap sawdust kibbles that look ok, although given it's not doing anything good for them you'd have to wait for the coming years to see how it all panned out. You wouldn't feed your kids the crap off the floor if you could afford better....why spend over $2,000 on a pup and give it a disadvantaged start....doesn't make sense huh. Edited March 26, 2013 by sas Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
laurenic33 Posted March 26, 2013 Author Share Posted March 26, 2013 Sorry edited my reply as soon as I saw that lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sas Posted March 26, 2013 Share Posted March 26, 2013 My personal stance on it is yes do your research so you know when your Breeder gives you the diet sheet and you see something on there you disagree with you can have that discussion with your breeder. Buying a puppy isn't reglion isn't not about blind faith, I believe everyone should ask questions and not just get "Because" answers but actual factual answers. Our Great Dane Owners Guide was put together with factual infomation, clinical studies, information from breeders in the game over 20 years - I'd like to think it's some pretty solid info to use as a research base. Giant Breed diets are commonly confused as being all about the Protein level - but in fact it's about the phos:calc ratio. I don't believe many Vets really have a right to comment on Giant Breed diets as it's not something they're school in extensively unless it's something they set out to research themselves. We end up with a number of messed up dogs because Vets have told the owner to put the dog on an inappropriate diet as well as calcium supplements which is a big no no. SAS, the document you linked me is fantastic and very informative - thank you for that. My choice of Holistic Select is indeed one of the suitable options listed on the document with appropriate calc/phos levels. May I ask why Advance is not recommended on that document? It is recommended in that document It is... AdvanceTotal Wellbeing All Breed Protein: 26% Calcium: 0.62% Phosphorus: 0.51% Fat: 15% (Calc/Phos Ratio 1.2:1) Price: 15kgs for approx $108.00 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
laurenic33 Posted March 26, 2013 Author Share Posted March 26, 2013 Wow intense. I still haven't said that Advance is in any way crap, just that there's better options out there. There are no 'trust' issues between myself and the breeder. But, if she honestly thought that Advance was the best choice then she would have told me that and recommended I stay on it. She didn't. She is happy for me to change and made it clear her choice is based on Australian made products (which someone here has stated Advance is not anyway). I have the breeders blessing so not sure why this has turned into a debate when all I was asking was what everyone here is feeding or has fed their Great Dane pups and why. Thank you everyone for your input and opinions, but I've made my choice now after researching the hell out of all the suitable options and I am happy with my decision :) I said it was a low qualiety diet. Plenty of Breeders feed it, it doesn't mean they are a bad breeder. Like anything with knowledge comes change, not many people are really look that indepth into the ingrediant panel yet or simply feed it because they get it discounted or free - I mean why else would you feed GMO corn and a kibble with 3 low quality fillers in the top 4? May I then ask your opinion about what you consider the best kibble out at the moment for dane pups? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
laurenic33 Posted March 26, 2013 Author Share Posted March 26, 2013 My personal stance on it is yes do your research so you know when your Breeder gives you the diet sheet and you see something on there you disagree with you can have that discussion with your breeder. Buying a puppy isn't reglion isn't not about blind faith, I believe everyone should ask questions and not just get "Because" answers but actual factual answers. Our Great Dane Owners Guide was put together with factual infomation, clinical studies, information from breeders in the game over 20 years - I'd like to think it's some pretty solid info to use as a research base. Giant Breed diets are commonly confused as being all about the Protein level - but in fact it's about the phos:calc ratio. I don't believe many Vets really have a right to comment on Giant Breed diets as it's not something they're school in extensively unless it's something they set out to research themselves. We end up with a number of messed up dogs because Vets have told the owner to put the dog on an inappropriate diet as well as calcium supplements which is a big no no. SAS, the document you linked me is fantastic and very informative - thank you for that. My choice of Holistic Select is indeed one of the suitable options listed on the document with appropriate calc/phos levels. May I ask why Advance is not recommended on that document? It is recommended in that document It is... AdvanceTotal Wellbeing All Breed Protein: 26% Calcium: 0.62% Phosphorus: 0.51% Fat: 15% (Calc/Phos Ratio 1.2:1) Price: 15kgs for approx $108.00 Yep saw that already apologised lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sas Posted March 26, 2013 Share Posted March 26, 2013 (edited) Wow intense. I still haven't said that Advance is in any way crap, just that there's better options out there. There are no 'trust' issues between myself and the breeder. But, if she honestly thought that Advance was the best choice then she would have told me that and recommended I stay on it. She didn't. She is happy for me to change and made it clear her choice is based on Australian made products (which someone here has stated Advance is not anyway). I have the breeders blessing so not sure why this has turned into a debate when all I was asking was what everyone here is feeding or has fed their Great Dane pups and why. Thank you everyone for your input and opinions, but I've made my choice now after researching the hell out of all the suitable options and I am happy with my decision :) I said it was a low qualiety diet. Plenty of Breeders feed it, it doesn't mean they are a bad breeder. Like anything with knowledge comes change, not many people are really look that indepth into the ingrediant panel yet or simply feed it because they get it discounted or free - I mean why else would you feed GMO corn and a kibble with 3 low quality fillers in the top 4? May I then ask your opinion about what you consider the best kibble out at the moment for dane pups? Holistic seems to do well. Holistic Select Lge & Giant Breed Puppy Protein: 24% Calcium: 1.0% Phosphorus: 0.80% Fat: 14% (Calc/Phos Ratio 1.3:1) Price: 13.6kgs for approx $118.00 Edited March 26, 2013 by sas Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
laurenic33 Posted March 26, 2013 Author Share Posted March 26, 2013 Wow intense. I still haven't said that Advance is in any way crap, just that there's better options out there. There are no 'trust' issues between myself and the breeder. But, if she honestly thought that Advance was the best choice then she would have told me that and recommended I stay on it. She didn't. She is happy for me to change and made it clear her choice is based on Australian made products (which someone here has stated Advance is not anyway). I have the breeders blessing so not sure why this has turned into a debate when all I was asking was what everyone here is feeding or has fed their Great Dane pups and why. Thank you everyone for your input and opinions, but I've made my choice now after researching the hell out of all the suitable options and I am happy with my decision :) I said it was a low qualiety diet. Plenty of Breeders feed it, it doesn't mean they are a bad breeder. Like anything with knowledge comes change, not many people are really look that indepth into the ingrediant panel yet or simply feed it because they get it discounted or free - I mean why else would you feed GMO corn and a kibble with 3 low quality fillers in the top 4? May I then ask your opinion about what you consider the best kibble out at the moment for dane pups? Holistic seems to do well. Holistic Select Lge & Giant Breed Puppy Protein: 24% Calcium: 1.0% Phosphorus: 0.80% Fat: 14% (Calc/Phos Ratio 1.3:1) Price: 13.6kgs for approx $118.00 That's exactly what I've chosen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
laurenic33 Posted March 26, 2013 Author Share Posted March 26, 2013 Btw SAS the guaranteed analysis for HS has changed. Now 23% protein, 12% fat, 1.1% calcium and still 0.80% phos. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sas Posted March 26, 2013 Share Posted March 26, 2013 Btw SAS the guaranteed analysis for HS has changed. Now 23% protein, 12% fat, 1.1% calcium and still 0.80% phos. Well just work out the new ratio and see if you're happy with it. Merchants change their ratios from time to time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
laurenic33 Posted March 26, 2013 Author Share Posted March 26, 2013 Not sure how to work it out but that's fine don't want to bother you any further. Cheers for all your info. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Salukifan Posted March 26, 2013 Share Posted March 26, 2013 Education time: what's the crucial issue for Danes? Balanced cal: phos. Not too much protein? The food I give Whippet pups is balanced cal: phos, 30% protein, 22% fat. I gather those last two numbers are way too high for GD pups? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sas Posted March 26, 2013 Share Posted March 26, 2013 (edited) The phos:calc is important. Protein isn't unimportant but it's not just about the protein which alot of people think itis. Our research has shownthat Australian Great Dane breeders generally like to keep their protein levels generally below 26% and that is inline with the reccomended matrix – that's not to say below 26% isn't ideal though. Royal Canin have a Giant Breed formula that was clinically trailed and has a higherprotein level. As we learn more and trial more we're going to start feeding differently in the future which I think is a natural progression. The protein should be made up of high quality, animal-based sources and fat around the 12-14% mark for puppies. During clinical studiesthey found that there was nodifferences found among the high, normal and low protein groups for the heightat the shoulder. The differences inprotein intake per se had no demonstrable consequences for calcium metabolismand skeletal development. Previousstudies suggest that the following dietary matrix is most ideal for growingDane puppies: Protein: Under 26% Calcium: Approx 0.80%, Phosphorus: Approx 0.67% Fat: Approx. 12-14%.Calc/Phos Ratio: 1:2:1 Edited March 26, 2013 by sas Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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