Adolescence

[George my Doggie]

My border collie x blue heeler named George is just hitting adolescence. I haven't had any problems with his traing yet but he has begun to exhibit undesireable behaviours. I no longer trust him off lead because he'll try to hump other dogs.

I want to get him desexed, but my vet won't give him the snip untill he is six months old.

even then, will desexing get rid of all these behaviours right away?

He is also begining to ignore me. I worked hard to get him to walk nicely on the lead, but he has begun pulling again to try and follow scent and sniff everything.

Any ideas as to what I can do?

[rachiie]

I don't think that getting your dog desexed will help much at all at this stage. When dogs start going through the stages of sexual maturity, they often test the boundaries of your leadership. It's like a teenager testing their parents out.

All you can do is remain firm, if the dog doesn't do what you tell it the first time, go over there and MAKE it obey you, to show it that it can't get away with ignoring you. And if you can't enforce a command (such as a 'come' in a large area), then don't ask the dog to do it. Only give it commands that you know you can enforce, that way you're showing it that you are the pack leader, and it cannot ignore you.

We got a lot of documentation on this stage of a puppy's life at puppy preschool. They may go through it a couple of times, but i don't think it lasts too long. Just make sure you don't change what you're doing, and don't let it see any holes in your 'pack' boundaries.

Our 7 mth old GSD pup has had a bit of a 'poke' at our boundaries this week. He wasn't 'come'ing when we called, and tried to run the opposite direction, so we went and got him and made him come. He hasn't tried any other disobedient tricks lately.. but time will tell.. lol

[Mags]

Ah adolescence don't you just love it - your well trained clever puppy vanishes and is replaced by a defiant air head. Only good thing about it is it is does pass - stick with your training and things will return to normal. And desexed or not they do still go through it from what I've observed over the years.

[George my Doggie]

But desexing would stop the humping wouldn't it? I just want to nip that in the bud before it becomes a habit rather than just a normal adolescent thing. My friend's five year old labrador still tries to hump other dogs even though it is desexed because it has become a habit. I don't want my dog to be like that... I really don't want it to be like that...

[ElectraWoman]

Desexing may help with humping - it may decrease a dog's sexual urges, but I don't think it will stop the behaviour . I think part of the reason why desexing is not a surefire way to stop humping is because humping isn't only sexual. Both males and females hump other dogs, because it is a sign of dominance.

If you do want to stop the humping, you can try distracting George. Maybe enrolling in an obedience club would work too - you should eventually teach George to ignore everyone and focus on you, alone. Also, at such a young age [i assume George is not yet 6 months?], recall would be problematic, so don't let him off the leash.

[Nekhbet]

Sexual urges should not really be hitting a pup this young (under 6 months? eek) I think he's using it as a dominance thing (why dogs hump each other and peoples legs ... he's asserting dominance) and thats backed up by the fact he is not listening to you. Just remember he's made up of dog breeds that are bred to show dominance (cows and sheep) but since theyre not there he's gonna try it on you.

Does he roll other puppies or dogs onto theyre backs? does he nip? does he bark or yap at you when you try to make him do a command ?

Definately enrol in obedience and make obedience an all day routine. Show him that he has no choice but to liten to mum (always make sure he sits before eating, carry treats everywhere and make him work for them)

with the pulling get a choker chain. Dont strangle the dog but give him a little sharp tup (gently at first) the noise can be enough to make them think about it. give him trial runs in the back yard and when he behaves start on your street and then move further out for walks. He has no excuse to sniff around in the backyard so he has to give you his full attention. Say his name and everytime he looks at you reward him, even just around the house. It will soon teach him to pay attention .

happy puppying!

As for the vet, if after 4 weeks he gets worst or is continuing, just tell them he is showing signs of dominance that could lead to aggression and you would like to have him desexed now. A vet can refuse but there is no irreversible harm done to a pup to be desexed earlier.The reason is to allow some testosterone a good amount of time to go through the pup and start the body showing more 'male' traits (he'll start raising leg etc)

[rachiie]

In regards to humping - my parents have a blue stumpy tailed cattle dog. She didn't hump anything before she was desexed. After my sister got a puppy, she started humping any dog that came near her. She tries to hump our pup Axle, and he's bigger than her. And boy, if the dog she is trying to hump manages to escape, there is TROUBLE. She goes nuts growling and snapping, but never inflicts any damage. I definitely agree that humping is a dominance thing. Axle is still entire at 7 mths and he hasn't humped anything, even after being humped (touch wood). He just looks at Nisha curiously going 'what on earth is that strange behaviour?'

[George my Doggie]

Little George is five and a half months old, so its definately adolescence. The reason the vet won't desex him is becasue his testicles haven't fully descended yet (they've only just started to).

I am already enrolled in an obedience club and George finished at the top of his puppy class (in fact he did so well, I'm now helping out the instructor with her classes. I would ask her about this but her dog has a humping problem too...She recommended early desexing but as previously mentioned, the vet won't allow this.). I am now waiting for the intermediate and agility classes to begin and there will be a four week refresher course later in the year.

I don't believe in puntive methods such as check chains -they don't work. I only use reward based training to ensure a good relationship between me and George. I ask him to do things, I don't command him. If he doesn't do it, I use a firmer voice and he usually does it. If that doesn't work, I push him gently into position.

He never rolls other dogs onto their backs, infact, he is always the subordinate. Even with terriers and toy breeds, because he was a rescue puppy and wasn't socialised before ten weeks.

He is usually quiet except when he is very excited, he only nips when he chases me (which is part of his blue heeler genetics- they are bred to nip at the heels of livestock) and he doesn't challenge me. He never shows any agression toward me, even when I take away his bones and toys, because he trusts me.

he just ignores me sometimes and pulls on the lead.

So i believe I have established that, in George's case, it isn't a dominance thing.

Edited April 10, 2005 by George my Doggie

[Guest Tess32]

It's not really that simple.

I've seen reasonably submissive, non aggressive dogs hump others - sometimes it's a "hmm, might as well give it a go".

My dog humps other dogs occasionally but he would never roll a dog on its back and he is mostly submissive and non aggressive. He just hopes for the best sometimes, heh.

He is desexed and was desexed at 5 and a half months old.

Your dog is actually a bit young to be going through adolescence, he's only just out of puppy teething stage. Most dogs hit adolescence at about 7 months I believe and it goes on past 12 months old. For me, 10 months was a noticeably difficult period.

Nat

[Nekhbet]

aahhhhhh more details ... gotcha! I thought he was much younger! sorry! But I do agree, if theres no descended testes then adolescence isnt really gonna be the problem.

heirachy between dogs and how they get on with you are not related. I have seen perfectly obedient dogs that will run out and have a go at another canine that approaches. dominance doesnt necessarily mean the dog goes berzerk (eg two dogs look at each other an one looks away immediately, having accepted the dominance of the staring canine. As a human you could miss this dominance challenge completely!). Dogs have a complex body language system. Ignoring your requests and pulling means he is trying to push the boudary of him being on the bottom rung of the family ladder (ie asserting dominance) you yourself show dominance to him when you use a firmer voice. The choker was a suggestion because it was invented as a physical tool, as dogs are wired for physical commands more then vocal (not saying you smack or hurt your dog in any way!!) But its up to you. I'd still recommend teaching him to look every time you say his name. Absolute gold that trick!

If he was a rescue then his humping is the only way the poor thing understands to try and test where he stands on another dogs social ladder, especially now he's going to begin the coming of hormonal age. He's using a dominant behaviour (the humping) to test the water you could say. You would see better socialised dogs sniff other dogs noses and stand upright (for dominant dogs) and more submissive dogs hunch, or wag low when approaching another. Try teaching him to sit and stay sitting when other dogs approach to help his understanding of behaviour.

And humping definately IS a dominant behaviour. My dog tried it to my family and some other dogs a few times when she was about 6-8 moths old ... but she's an undesexed bitch! Conversely it could be a stress related reaction, he is confused because he doesnt understand the body language so does the only thing he knows to show them how he feels. Its sorta the chicken way of showing dominance because it keeps the humper a fair way away from a set of sharp teeth if the receiver decides to retaliate!

Edited April 10, 2005 by Nekhbet

[George my Doggie]

I think bigger dogs mature later than smaller dogs, and George isn't all that big of a dog. He lost all his teeth a while ago and now has all his adult teeth.

With the pulling, I tried to use a head collar (which are a lot more humane than check chains, which aren't supposed to be used on pups and small dogs anyway) which allowed me to control his head and where the head goes, the body follows. However, George is the kind of dog that doesn't like to have anything extra on him (again, lack of early socialisation), the only thing he will tolerate is his regular collar.

I have seen people that use check chains on their dogs, that go past me and George most mornings when I take him for a walk and have to keep jerking that chain every time the dog gets distracted and tries to go after something. They've been using that thing for ages and the fact that the dog still tries to pull shows it is learning nothing.

There is another guy in puppy class that jerks his dog around on the lead, and you know what happened? His dog now refuses to move! When he tries to jerk that lead the dog just resists and lies down on the ground. Now we have to teach him the reward based methods. A dog should be beside you because it wants to be there, not because you are forcing it.

I have already taught the attention command, he learnt it in puppy class and I used it to stop him from trying to chase cars (which he has stopped now, thank god.) Except I use the que words 'George, watch' instead of just his name because I say his name heaps of times anyway and it stops him from getting confused.

He responds around the house very well, but when he is in a distracting environment its a different story. To gain his attention I start running, but sometimes this only makes him pull more when he tries to go on ahead.

With other dogs he always takes submissive postures, tail down and looking away, rolling on his back, sometimes pawing at the other dog, crouched posture. etc, etc, etc...

I agree that humping can be a dominance issue, but I don't believe it is the case for George. He was being all submissive with a labrador the other day and then tried to hump it. A submissive dog doesn't suddenly show dominance behaviour without reason. It may over time come to think it is dominant, but not in a single one-off encounter with a much bigger, stronger and heavier dog.

Edited April 10, 2005 by George my Doggie

[rachiie]

We're not trying to debate the pros and cons of a check chain. I'm sure that's a topic that's been done to death already on this forum.

We're trying to help you understand your dog's behavior. Is your dog a pure cattle dog, or a cross? If so, what with?

Whilst i grew up with cattle dogs and my family has owned 5 or so over the years, i never saw one that was entire, so i don't know when they reach sexual maturity. Although i do find it strange that he's going through this stage before his testicles have dropped. We got a handout in PPS about different stages in puppies lives. Here is part of it:

When you notice a change in your dog during this time, he is probably going through his 'flight instinct' period. Like a teenager going through puberty, your puppy is changing physiologically. Your awareness of these changes will help get you through this commonly difficult period. Just keep your pup on a leash until these changes pass. A puppy will test its wings. He may challenge you for leadership, he may not come when called, he may not play fetch when he once used to, he will be uncomfortable because his adult teeth are settling in. This period can last a few days to several weeks and can occur any time from 4 - 8 mths

And it goes on say that there may be a couple of these type of periods and that you should just ignore the dog's tests and be aware of it and ride it through.

I believe this is just a stage your pup is going through. Just love him for who he is, and if you're concerned, look in book stores for books on your breed to find information about their individual developmental stages, or search online.

[Dogsfevr]

A chain used correctly is not a problem ,a head halti used wrongly is just as bad as a chain used incorrectly.

Go to a dogshow & see all the dogs on check chains .which come in may forms,shapes & sizes9parachute,snake,fine linked,fur saver etc etc)

[George my Doggie]

Of course, you don't jerk a head halter, you'll break the dogs neck, but it's not designed to actually hurt the dog, it's just some people get frustrated and use it incorrectly. used properly, it is a perfectly humane way of controlling pulling. A check chain is designed to hurt the dog and tighten around its neck so it says to the dog, "if you pull, this is what you get"...At least that's the concept of it. I do not use puntive methods and I will never ever ever use a check chain on my dog, I don't care what anyone else does (although I do feel sorry for their poor dogs). Discussion over.

My dog is a cattle dog cross border collie, although because he was a rescue, that's only a guess and he may have other breeds in him too.

I do love him for who he is, he's my beloved little doggy woggy. It's just sometimes its like "Who are you and what have you done with the real George?" But I do still love him, I just don't want him to have any serious problem behaviours when he is older.

I think I'll just keep with my training and not let him play off lead with other dogs untill he is desexed, and if the problem persists...Well, I'll be back...

Edited April 11, 2005 by George my Doggie

[KitKat]

Of course, you don't jerk a head halter, you'll break the dogs neck, but it's not designed to actually hurt the dog, it's just some people get frustrated and use it incorrectly. used properly, it is a perfectly humane way of controlling pulling. A check chain is designed to hurt the dog and tighten around its neck so it says to the dog, "if you pull, this is what you get"...At least that's the concept of it. I do not use puntive methods and I will never ever ever use a check chain on my dog, I don't care what anyone else does (although I do feel sorry for their poor dogs). Discussion over.

These are just training tools, they are not designed to 'hurt' the dog...if it's hurting the dog the handler is doing it wrong.

Halti's are often used incorectly as people see them used on tv...go to their local supermarket and pick one up. Then they'll put it on their dog, many times incorectly fitted, and go from there. No training, know experiance and no knowledge of how to use their new training tool. I've seen people 'helicopter' their dog while using a halti...he had no more control over his dog with a halti then he did or would using anything - but the handler would not take any direction from the instructors.

Check chains are used as a check and release, check and release - not as a tug, pull tug, strain, pull tug which unfortuantely some people do, and that's just the handler using the check chain incorrectly. Any tool can be used incorectly but so often people want a quick fix - and most of the training tools don't come with instructions - and many out there wouldn't read them if they did.

Adited to add...there is no reason to feel sorry for my dogs...they hear the rattle of the check chains and they start leaping around like happy lunatics, but i also have big boofy dogs and the little tags they get from the checks do little to even bother them, but to do get the gist that i'm not impressed.

Edited April 11, 2005 by KitKat

[rachiie]

Mine too, KitKat. Our instructors at PPS sat down and showed us all how to make the check chain into a "b" loop so that it DID release as soon as the pull was over. And showed us how to use them as a smooth fluid pull instead of a tugging and choking motion, and they get quite upset when they see someone using one incorrectly. They aren't hurtful, not when ppl are shown how to use them in the correct manner. But as with everything, there are ppl who just don't know, and until they are educated, problems will continue. But that's life, hey!

[George my Doggie]

What part of discussion over do you people not understand? I'm not going to use a check chain, get over it. You're wasting your energy on me.

I started using a clicker in my training sessions a few days ago, and I'm beginning to see results. He is more responsive with his sits and downs, and I'm going to start trying the clicker with lead walking.

[KitKat]

What part of discussion over do you people not understand? I'm not going to use a check chain, get over it. You're wasting your energy on me.

Excuse me??? i couldn't care less which way you decide to train your dog, different dogs work better with different methods to start with.

My comments were to point out that a check chain is just like any other tool...and that a halti can be used to ill effect just like any other...it's not the tool around the neck of the dog that can be a problem but the tool at the other end of the lead.

[poodlefan]

George, loose the attitude. Good dog trainers have an open mind and don't dismiss ideas out of hand. For what its worth, many people believe halti's to be far more damaging to a dog (physically and mentally) than check chains and I'm one of them. For a start, a check chain only acts when tightened - a halti places pressure on the most sensitive part of a dog CONSTANTLY.. Before you accuse me of telling you to use a check chain, I'll point out that personally I don't use one, but I DO prefer them to Halti's for most strong dogs. Both are training devices, both can be abused and neither of them, without proper training and use, will prevent a dog pulling on the lead. If you don't believe a dog can pull on a halti, then stick around... they do. BTW, ever try to fit a halti on a Boxer? ;) They don't suit all dogs and I think they should NEVER be used on small dogs - the angles of force are far to accute.

Six months old is a little young to be an adolescent IMHO - sounds to me like your little ACD mix is living up to his breeding and is starting to test the bounds of your control - start getting used to it as many an ACD owner will tell you its part of the charm and part of the challenge of the breed. Smart and cocky - that's the mix.

You need to get on top of the nipping NOW - no time is acceptable for this and if you are even thinking about agility, such behaviour will need to be curbed - because you and the dog run in that sport. Furthermore, it will not assist to curb nipping others when they run. BTW, do NOT start any training over agility obstacles until your dog is at least 14 months old or its growth plates have closed.

Let me see - an instructor with a dog that still humps... I'd be looking elsewhere for help on this one. Early desexing as many have pointed out only curbs sexually motivated humping - this does sound more like dominance. Personally, I agree with your vet about not desexing early - especially if you have agility in mind. Early desexing can lead to a few structural issues for male pups.

Junior is starting to push the envelope - if you believe that PURELY positive training will get you on top of this, good luck. IMHO, you will need to have some carefully thought out and calmly applied negatives to add to your training tool kit.

I only use reward based training to ensure a good relationship between me and George. I ask him to do things, I don't command him. If he doesn't do it, I use a firmer voice and he usually does it. If that doesn't work, I push him gently into position.

I hate to break it to you George, but if you are forcing your dog into position (gently or otherwise) you ARE using negative reinforcement. Positive reinforcement only encourages and rewards desired behaviours - it does't 'force' anything. The aim of training (positive or negative) is to get the dog to do it the FIRST time, not the third - how many times do you consider it is acceptable for you to call your dog before he comes? There is only one safe answer - ONCE.

If you want to help out with training other dogs, I suggest you start reading and learning fast - no point in talking about positve and negative reinforcement and dismissing the latter when in fact you are already using both. Not all negative reinforcement is harsh - best you disavow yourself of that idea.

Edited to add: personally I do not encourage people to 'force' or place their dogs into any position. (Indeed, I do not allow it to be done in my class). There are several reasons for this... the first of which is just pure common sense - it only works when the dog is right next to you.. how do you get your dog to sit when its 3 feet away? One of the others is that some people do not know how much 'force' is too much and also some dogs learn quickly to resist this process and the whole thing turns into a wrestling match. My view is that you can train a dog without having to get 'physical' with it.... and you should be able to use the same method of training any size dog. Try forcing a grown Rottie into a sit.

On the humping, prevention is better than cure. Control interactions and keep them on a longline if necessary - if the starts to hump, you tell him 'off' - if he keeps going, you make him get off. If he will not come when you call him (the first time) when he is offlead, then don't let him off.

Edited April 11, 2005 by poodlefan

[rachiie]

And for my part, George, you are assuming that i was trying to persuade you to use a check chain. I /really/ don't care what method of training you use on your dog. I was responding to KitKat's comment.

But i do agree with Poodlefan's comment that you should have an open mind. It is as if you've been there, tried that with all these things that you are dismissing. But I was under the impression that this is your first dog, and it's only 5 months old. Pls correct me if i'm wrong. I think that you can only know how certain things are going to work if you try them first.

Please try and listen to our advice. You do not have to use it, but a lot of the people on here have been breeding dogs for years and they really HAVE seen hands on what methods work with various types of behavior. We are only trying to help you, you asked us for our opinions, and we are letting you know, that's all!