What Is The Story With The New Temperament Assessments At Blacktown Po

[oscamia]

Omg I think I have made myself quite clear if that means you think I am in with pounds rounds that's crazy I am entitled to my opinion I am with a different rescue and never have had done rescue with PR this is crazy just because I don't like the idea of temp testing in a pound environment

[Malti]

Omg I think I have made myself quite clear if that means you think I am in with pounds rounds that's crazy I am entitled to my opinion I am with a different rescue and never have had done rescue with PR this is crazy just because I don't like the idea of temp testing in a pound environment

who has accused you of being with pound rounds?

What is the alternative to a temp test? Nothing?

I vote they go to your house to be evaluated as I don't want to have an untemp tested dog with no idea of what to expect, you on the other hand don't seem to mind.

Edited March 21, 2013 by Malti

[Sheridan]

I have a nice pic of a graph that shows the BCC kill rate from 2003 ttill 2011 but I don't know how to post it any way 2011 the kill rate was 14%,, 2010 kill rate 20%, 2009 kill rate 24%, 2008 kill rate 34%, Therefore it shows how good the number has gone down and I answered you other question on my previous post

So, you aren't actually claiming that no dogs were pts? Well, that is something.

So, my question again: how do you know more dogs will be killed?

Your response, if you are honest, should be, 'I don't know.'

And if your answer is an honest 'I don't know' then you should also admit you're speculating without any evidence. It's been a week. Come back this time next year and then complain if there is anything to complain about.

Edited March 21, 2013 by Sheridan

[oscamia]

Well there was 5 last week so lets see how many more there are and will we be informed by the council I doubt it, as stated the dogs are usually stressed in the pound so I cannot see many passing you cannot get a true evaluation off a stressed dog, , I would like to see this temp test for myself and I hope it is not similar to the RSPCA's test

[Sheridan]

Well there was 5 last week so lets see how many more there are and will we be informed by the council I doubt it, as stated the dogs are usually stressed in the pound so I cannot see many passing you cannot get a true evaluation off a stressed dog, , I would like to see this temp test for myself and I hope it is not similar to the RSPCA's test

Not an answer to my question. Come back next year with some numbers.

[Malti]

Well there was 5 last week so lets see how many more there are and will we be informed by the council I doubt it, as stated the dogs are usually stressed in the pound so I cannot see many passing you cannot get a true evaluation off a stressed dog, , I would like to see this temp test for myself and I hope it is not similar to the RSPCA's test

Not an answer to my question. Come back next year with some numbers.

ditto

[Her Majesty Dogmad]

Well there was 5 last week so lets see how many more there are and will we be informed by the council I doubt it, as stated the dogs are usually stressed in the pound so I cannot see many passing you cannot get a true evaluation off a stressed dog, , I would like to see this temp test for myself and I hope it is not similar to the RSPCA's test

Well I just read on a Facebook page that a dog that PR did get out - adopted by someone - killed their dog and they took it back to Blacktown Pound last week - to be euthanased. Not an old story (it has happened before), this is new.

What you don't get is that there is so much more to rescue than simply getting a dog out of the pound! It's about carefully assessing dogs over time and then doing your level best to get them into the right home. That means the dog is introduced to everyone and everything in the home, after a homecheck has been done and the home was found to be suitable.

Do things that way, thoroughly, carefully and professionally and you should find that the returns are very few.

Never meeting a dog and just getting someone to adopt via a photo is a recipe for a disaster, it just totally freaks me out I'm afraid, it puts people, children and animals in great danger.

[oscamia]

I never said anything about the way pound round does their rescue I have no idea what they do and not interested, if I was to rescue dogs again I would be checking out the rescue 1st and not jumping in with any rescue I would be making sure they were reputable and that what they do is honest,

this is still separate to what I am talking about as a regular rescue choose the dog before fostering it or sending it to a foster making sure the dog is suitable to go to that foster carer commonsense really not every dog is suitable to every household, I am only talking about the temp test being dangerous because a pound environment is not a good place to test a dog but I guess you just don't get what I am saying, you just want make the temp test about pound rounds,

If pound rounds is not running their rescue properly then they should be told no more dogs till they foster them out first maybe AWL could get involved with them it's not hard basket stuff, I do understand the rescue process and fostering thanks for you time and to the other ladies I'm sure the numbers will go up but I can't predict the numbers I would still like to look at the temp test

[oscamia]

Just clarify with the fostering process , I have 3 foster cats here they have been with me for nearly 4 months they don't just go to any home they go to a home that is suitable where I know they will have a forever home so yes I work with rescue and foster and a rescue group and before I jumped into it I checked out the rescue group first

[Malti]

I never said anything about the way pound round does their rescue I have no idea what they do and not interested, if I was to rescue dogs again I would be checking out the rescue 1st and not jumping in with any rescue I would be making sure they were reputable and that what they do is honest,

this is still separate to what I am talking about as a regular rescue choose the dog before fostering it or sending it to a foster making sure the dog is suitable to go to that foster carer commonsense really not every dog is suitable to every household, I am only talking about the temp test being dangerous because a pound environment is not a good place to test a dog but I guess you just don't get what I am saying, you just want make the temp test about pound rounds,

If pound rounds is not running their rescue properly then they should be told no more dogs till they foster them out first maybe AWL could get involved with them it's not hard basket stuff, I do understand the rescue process and fostering thanks for you time and to the other ladies I'm sure the numbers will go up but I can't predict the numbers I would still like to look at the temp test

Just clarify with the fostering process , I have 3 foster cats here they have been with me for nearly 4 months they don't just go to any home they go to a home that is suitable where I know they will have a forever home so yes I work with rescue and foster and a rescue group and before I jumped into it I checked out the rescue group first

You seem so evasive in your answers, maybe pound rounds is mentioned as they are the only 'non rescue group' rescue that has boycotted Blacktown due to the temp testing, other rescues have not seemed to taken such a drastic move in response to temp testing. Plus their dodgy methods of rehoming dogs. Whether you agree with them or not is irrelevant.

What do you suggest in place of temp testing dogs?

Do you mind if a dog that is inappropriate to be rehomed harming another dog?

Do you understand that a good temp test will cover stressors in the pound?

The five dogs were not there for a short period and could possibly be put down to a 52 day accumulation of dogs not deemed suitable to rehome or rescue.

[mita]

Omg I think I have made myself quite clear if that means you think I am in with pounds rounds that's crazy I am entitled to my opinion I am with a different rescue and never have had done rescue with PR this is crazy just because I don't like the idea of temp testing in a pound environment

Oscamia, there's discussion of the point you've made , earlier in this thread. 'Temperament' testing in the usual pound environment isn't the optimal way to get an assessment of what temperament actually is. And an example was given of the RSPCA ACT which uses such a test only as a starting point.

BUT the discussion went on that it's a matter of resources which that particular shelter has, and is able to use well. Council pounds don't have those resources and budgeting for them by local government is not likely. They're left with just any observations they can make while a dog is with them .... and any test that they think might be useful. It's not ideal at all, I agree ... but it's the reality the pounds have to deal with. And they have to balance public safety with animal welfare. No wonder there's evidence that the realities of pound environments are also hard on the humans involved. I posted earlier how UQ reported that pound and shelter staff were at risk for mental health problems.

It's not an easy situation, is it. Especially given the large number of dogs that council pounds have to deal with.

BTW There was a paper presented by Monash University staff at the 2009 AIAM Urban Animal Management Conference.

'Reliability, validity and feasibility of existing tests of canine behaviour.' Toukhsati et al. After making the point that the tests are erroneously called temperament tests, they examined a number of them. Then concluded (seems they were seeking a more ideal, too):

Conclusion

There have been very few reports of behavioural tests specifcally designed to identify dangerousness in companion dogs, including those in welfare shelters. Taylor and Mills (2006) state that fewer than ten such reports could be found in the peer-review scientific literature and that even among these, reports on reliability, validity and feasibility are incomplete with authors’ often reporting one,but not all, aspects. Many shelters and pounds carry out their own behavioural evaluations or temperament tests to assess dogs’ suitability for adoption. It is worrying that not only are many of these tests designed without consulting a behavioural expert, in addition they have not been formally presented in the scientific literature. Even more concerning is that those tests that do appear in the literature often have incomplete reports relating to the quality of the test.This is alarming considering that important decisions about the future of many dogs are made on the basis of these tests (Taylor & Mills, 2006)

Edited March 21, 2013 by mita

[mita]

Do you understand that a good temp test will cover stressors in the pound?

You're saying you know how a good temperament test will cover stressors in the pound. I'd like to hear about that, as I'm interested in assessment. So how is that done? And what temperament test you know does that?

Edited March 21, 2013 by mita

[minimax]

Do you understand that a good temp test will cover stressors in the pound?

You're saying you know how a good temperament test will cover stressors in the pound. I'd like to hear about that, as I'm interested in assessment. So how is that done? And what temperament test you know does that?

Wasn't Cosmolo previously talking about that sort of thing? Taking into account the situation the dog is in and acknowledging that the dog may behave/react differently due to the stress of the pound?

Edited March 21, 2013 by minimax

[mita]

Do you understand that a good temp test will cover stressors in the pound?

You're saying you know how a good temperament test will cover stressors in the pound. I'd like to hear about that, as I'm interested in assessment. So how is that done? And what temperament test you know does that?

Wasn't Cosmolo previously talking about that sort of thing? Taking into account the situation the dog is in and acknowledging that the dog may behave/react differently due to the stress of the pound?

I don't mean to be rude, minimax, but I was talking to Malti.... about the understanding she posted about.

I've already given my 'how' earlier in the thread.... & it referred to an ideal world, not one that's presently & totally available to most pounds:

It's a fact that temperament tests given in the usual pound environment are in the context of high stress for the dogs (evidence for that). We wouldn't test humans' temperament in a situation where they were under high stress.

BUT it's also a fact that large numbers of dogs are dumped in pounds. That's the only starting point the pound staff have to work with.

In an ideal world, the dogs could be placed in a more natural setting before being tested. And any rescue offering a more natural setting, would need to be highly skilled re dog behaviour... as well as realistic about risk posed by any dog. Or pounds would be organised in ways designed to reduce stress.

BUT, meanwhile, back in the real world, pound staff & ethical rescuers can only do what they can in the face of considerable problems.

Edited March 21, 2013 by mita

[Salukifan]

I've been mulling over this thread for a while..

There's a persistent theme from the "anti-temperament test"brigade that I find quite worrying. It goes like this: "it's not fair to temperament test dogs in pounds because they're stressed or frightened". The unwritten logic to this seems to be "if dogs behave aggressively because they are stressed or frightened that's OK".

Well you know what. It's NOT OK. It's cold comfort to anyone who's been on receiving end of dog aggression or has had a child on the receiving end that "the dog only did it because it was stressed or frightened". Ditto for anyone who'd had a pet maimed or killed by another dog. The bite of a frightened dog hurts every bit as much as the bite of a dominant dog and it can do just as much damage.

It doesn't matter so much IMO why dogs bite. It matters that, under a small degree of pressure, they'll do it at all. Just about any dog can be triggered to bite but sensible temperament testing doesn't appear to push many dogs to the edge. If a stressed or frightened dog will bite under the circumstances created in a well thought out temperament test, the odds are it's going to be placed under similar degrees of stress in everyday life. As far as I can figure that's one aspect of what temperament testing is attempting to find out.

I'd like to see a lot less excusing of dog aggression by the "every dog needs saving"brigade and a lot more thinking about the consequences of placing aggressive dogs into the community. When the likes of Pound Rounds acknowledge that theyhave a duty of care to provide safe dogs to those people who take dogs for adoption from them, maybe we'll be getting somewhere.

Edited March 22, 2013 by Haredown Whippets

[Sheridan]

HW makes a good point, as usual.

I would like to add that given the lack of understanding of particular breeds by those in animal welfare (broad stroke generalisation), I would be hesitant to dismiss a dog being temperament tested because of a particular reaction to certain stimuli. I would prefer someone expert in that breed take a look at the dog. I have no opinion on temp testing crossbreeds and would imagine that they could only have a general test.

[Salukifan]

HW makes a good point, as usual.

I would like to add that given the lack of understanding of particular breeds by those in animal welfare (broad stroke generalisation), I would be hesitant to dismiss a dog being temperament tested because of a particular reaction to certain stimuli. I would prefer someone expert in that breed take a look at the dog. I have no opinion on temp testing crossbreeds and would imagine that they could only have a general test.

The only downside I see to that suggestion Sheridan is that pounds aren't assessing dogs for adoption by people knowledgeable with breeds. Pounds aren't necessarily releasing dogs to people with any dog knowledge at all. So they have to test with that in mind.

In the circumstances you describe, it might be a better option to have a specific dog assessed and fostered by breed rescue.... if there is one.

When Sue Sternberg (inventor of the much discussed "rubber hand in the food bowl" test), came to Australia a few years back, she showed video after video of dogs under going her shelter's temperament test. I have to say evidence of stress in the test dogs was minimal. Most greeted the stranger, sniffed the doll and hoed into the food, not resisting when the hand went into the bowl. However there were some videos shown that put the hairs up on the necks of the trainers in the room. Dogs that displayed predatory behaviour towards the 'strange' adult in the room, dogs that grabbed the rubber hand and used their back teeth to bite it hard and repeatedly... and so on.

A video was shown of a dog that was assessed, failed but reclaimed by its owner. it went on to be privately rehomed and to kill someone in the new home. Anyone with half an ounce of dog knowledge could have read the warning signs that dog was giving out in neon flashing light. The signals that dog was radiating made my blood run cold. And yet there are still those who would claim the dog was "stressed or frightenend" and "only needed love and care to behave".

God help us all if that's what people really think. Or more precisely God help adoptive families unless temperament tests are used and implemented.

Edited March 22, 2013 by Haredown Whippets

[mita]

Only extremists would fall into either being pro-temperament testing or anti-temperament testing. It's a case of what kind of testing can help public safety and be balanced for animal welfare. Pounds are right in the middle of this & have to deal with the reality of what they've got.... a lot of homeless dogs.

And there's signs they're facing up to the issues. The Monash University paper was delivered, on request, at a conference attended by those who run & work for local government pounds and dog management. And it rightly says that there's huge interest from those sources to obtain the most objective and most predictive assessment tools possible.

However, they say, nothing presently exists that's gold standard science re either of those. Dogs can 'pass' a temperament test, but go on later to bite or attack. And dogs can 'fail' a temperament test, but later prove not to be a problem.

But pounds have to do something, in terms of public safety... with what they see in front of them. And make judgement calls. Calls that might have been different in an ideal world where there was broader assessment/trialling

But this is the real world. So it's understandable that Blacktown Pound is stepping up to do what it can.

The elephant in the room IMO is the considerable human cost in terms of the mental well-being of pound/shelter staff working with such decisions (research evidence). Any assistance to make pound testing as objective and predictive as possible ,would go a long way to give them confidence in what they're doing.

Edited March 22, 2013 by mita

[Salukifan]

Only extremists would fall into either being pro-temperament testing or anti-temperament testing.

As I am pro-temperament testing, I must be an extremist. However I'm not pro ANY temperament test. :)

[mita]

Only extremists would fall into either being pro-temperament testing or anti-temperament testing.

As I am pro-temperament testing, I must be an extremist. However I'm not pro ANY temperament test. :)

Which makes you the opposite of an extremist. :) You qualify your position. Extremists never do.

Edited March 22, 2013 by mita