Horses For Courses: Is $400 Phar Lap In The Pal?

[Sheridan]

Not sure why this is news.

Racehorses sold for horse meat.

[Kirislin]

I thought that was common knowledge.

[pepe001]

Deposer, the race horse mentioned in the article apparently wasn't sold to the meat-buyer by the racing owners. He raced in Hong Kong and was sent back after he retired to be rehomed. 6 mths later he was seen and photographed at the dogger sale. The owners went to great expense to bring him home and it just unfortunate the new owners chose to dog him, or maybe he was unable to be rehomed due to temperament issues, or maybe he broke down. Only the people who sent him there to die know that. But if the racing owner wanted to dog him it would have been done in Hong Kong, not here.

As a horse owner I don't see a problem with using the meat for whatever as long as the animal is killed humanely.

[Salukifan]

I thought that was common knowledge.

Me too - particularly in cheaper brands of pet food where the protein source is not specified.

One of the reasons I like to know what protein is in the dog food I buy.

[Kirislin]

When I was a kid horse meat was sold as horse meat. My mother used to buy it for our cat. I dont know where people think all the knackery horses come from and go to if not from the racetrack and into cans. It's why I will not sell a horse, when their time comes they are put down on my property, and if possible buried on it.

[WoofnHoof]

People know it but would rather not have to think about it, and the line "as long as it's done humanely" is an easy one to say not so easy to actually achieve in animals which are not bred for meat. It's news because it's wastage and that is a bigger deal than it used to be. It's also news because of the horsemeat scandal in the UK bringing the issue into the public awareness, horse meat in Australia doesn't just go to pet meat it goes to human consumption as well and processing issues with a species with such variation in size and temperament can result in welfare issues.

ETA I remember this article came out on one of the horse forums a little while ago, I was surprised at the people denying it happens since you've only got to go to a horse sale on any given day and watch the doggers get a truckload.

Edited March 15, 2013 by WoofnHoof

[YOLO]

I suppose it is somewhat “unfair” to think that a Horse which has won its owners millions could finish up as pet food. But yeah, it happens, its where the excess horses go, including Brumby culls.

I think if I were a “Horse person” (rather than just a “dog person”) I would have a BIG problem with this, much as I can’t stand the idea that dogs are butchered in Asia.

[gwp4me]

As a person who grew up with poppy and his horse, I regard a horse as family, so all this wastage truly saddens me. But I tried to help out a bit over the years, settled the old Ex-Racehorse, which I bought as a four year old, then given to my daughter for eventing - in retirement at my place. Then I rescued an arthritic Ex - Racehorse, giving him a life for 6 1/2 years. Also, my daughter and I recently rehomed two horses, donated from the racing industry, purchased them through NSW Thoroughbred Rehoming Trust. My pleasure. :)

[inez]

People know it but would rather not have to think about it, and the line "as long as it's done humanely" is an easy one to say not so easy to actually achieve in animals which are not bred for meat. It's news because it's wastage and that is a bigger deal than it used to be. It's also news because of the horsemeat scandal in the UK bringing the issue into the public awareness, horse meat in Australia doesn't just go to pet meat it goes to human consumption as well and processing issues with a species with such variation in size and temperament can result in welfare issues.

ETA I remember this article came out on one of the horse forums a little while ago, I was surprised at the people denying it happens since you've only got to go to a horse sale on any given day and watch the doggers get a truckload.

What a foolish thing to say?

Even human meat has been on the menu in case no one remembers.

Where the human race is concerned, somewhere, someplace EVERYTHING and anything, is 'bred for meat'

If you had a clue as to the inteligance of Pigs they certainly do not think they were born to be eaten.

This is a species with just about double the brains and learning ability of a horse or a dog, so just what do you think denotes which breeds or species are acceptable as being "bred for meat"?

Edited March 16, 2013 by inez

[WoofnHoof]

People know it but would rather not have to think about it, and the line "as long as it's done humanely" is an easy one to say not so easy to actually achieve in animals which are not bred for meat. It's news because it's wastage and that is a bigger deal than it used to be. It's also news because of the horsemeat scandal in the UK bringing the issue into the public awareness, horse meat in Australia doesn't just go to pet meat it goes to human consumption as well and processing issues with a species with such variation in size and temperament can result in welfare issues.

ETA I remember this article came out on one of the horse forums a little while ago, I was surprised at the people denying it happens since you've only got to go to a horse sale on any given day and watch the doggers get a truckload.

What a foolish thing to say?

Even human meat has been on the menu in case no one remembers.

Where the human race is concerned, somewhere, someplace EVERYTHING and anything, is 'bred for meat'

If you had a clue as to the inteligance of Pigs they certainly do not think they were born to be eaten.

This is a species with just about double the brains and learning ability of a horse or a dog, so just what do you think denotes which breeds or species are acceptable as being "bred for meat"?

Selective breeding in meat animals is different to selective breeding in racehorses, most meat animals are bred firstly for meat quality and secondly for docility to make them easier to handle and process, racehorses are bred to run fast and have a lightning quick reaction time. Not traits which facilitate a smooth and stress free slaughter process.

Before you accuse me of being foolish perhaps you need to look at what it means to achieve a humane slaughter and how often it is realistically achieved, even in purpose bred meat animals the handling, stun and slaughter is not always perfect and stress free so add in factors such as heightened flight reactions to stressed animals and you reduce the likelihood of good welfare outcomes further.

[BlackJaq]

Have to agree with WoofnHoof, also horses come in a huge variety of sizes and temperaments, the kill stall does not vary, same size for each animal.

On a different note, anybody who thinks only race horses and brumbies go to the doggers needs to take a long and hard look at any given auction where cheap horses are sold to doggers. Just like dogs in pounds, horses that go for dog meat come from a huge variety of backgrounds and pretty much all of them have butthead owners who cannot be bothered. Either they cannot be bothered to foot medical bills for their horse, feed their horse, train their horse, look after their horse or sell or responsibly re-home their animal or whatever. Nobody has to dump their horse or dog, and humane euthanasia should always be considered if you know you didn't teach your horse jack-all and nobody is going to want to buy it except the meat man...

[Ripley]

Deposer, the race horse mentioned in the article apparently wasn't sold to the meat-buyer by the racing owners. He raced in Hong Kong and was sent back after he retired to be rehomed. 6 mths later he was seen and photographed at the dogger sale. The owners went to great expense to bring him home and it just unfortunate the new owners chose to dog him, or maybe he was unable to be rehomed due to temperament issues, or maybe he broke down. Only the people who sent him there to die know that. But if the racing owner wanted to dog him it would have been done in Hong Kong, not here.

As a horse owner I don't see a problem with using the meat for whatever as long as the animal is killed humanely.

Thank you for clarifying this. I wish I hadn't clicked on that link as it made my cry. Still a very sad end to a horse that made his owners a reported $2M or more in prize money.

eta: I'm glad I stopped going to the races many years ago and don't even watch the Melb Cup on tv. It started to not sit well with me so I stopped going, only enjoyed the social aspect of dressing up and drinking with girlfriends anyway and we can do that in a bar.

Edited March 16, 2013 by Ripley

[pepe001]

Don't get me wrong I also don't take unnecessary kiling of horses lightly. Hence while I have 4 ornaments walking around my paddocks and care for a dozen ex-racers with a lovely owner who says they worked for her so have a good home for life. But I do disagree with some things said here re killing racehorses for meat. I think a vaste majority would take a killing box more easily and with less stress than any cow or steer. Theer are animals that have spent their lives living in boxes, transported in tight horse floats, have lots of noise and husle and busle going on around. The doggers I have seen (2) lead the horse in an open metal box, stand in front and pull a trigger, then drag the body into the cuttng floor. I don't think they are stunned in Oz (but I may be wrong). The thing I do disagrre with is the sometimes long transport they go through. This should be more tightly regulated. I have been to a few dogger sales and it is right about not just racers. All kinds and sizes are there. Some very nice horses (that are often picked up cheap, retrained and sold on) but some really should be destroyed.

Every animal breeder must cull to keep the standard. It just happens that racehorses have a very high standard so culling is a very high proportion, and added to that the money involved makes it worse. Chook breeders cull anything that is not right. I have done that although only for health reasons the others I give away or sell, many dog breeders cull those not up to scratch. I hope in this case cull means sell-desexed but lets get serious for some it isn't. I think many racehorse breeders also hope to rehome their failures but there are just too many. So that is the real problem - too many horses and not enough suitable homes.

Yep, the story about Deposer made me cry as well. Very very sad he went that way. I have too spent more than one occasion standing in a yard tears running out watching horses loading up to the doggers truck. Once was three mares and the dogger gave the foals to a lady who asked to have them after the dogger bought them. He walked in and lead the mares onto the truck while the foals screamed for their mums in the yard and mums neighed for their babies. So often I wish I could go and buy the healthy ones but unfortunately I am not in a position to do that. But many people do.

Edited March 16, 2013 by pepe001

[Ripley]

A FB friend of mine posted an Animals Australia link about some knackery in Victoria and their inhumane practises. I don't take things posted by AA as fact as they have become too extreme to have my support, but the knackery was investigated and they supply the Melbourne zoo with horse meat for the big cats and Melb zoo now reportedly has ceased business with them.

Here is the link - a racehorse called Nature's Child they state wasn't dead when she was dragged around to the cutting room floor. Just posting it, have no opinion if it's true or not.

http://www.animalsaustralia.org/take_action/stop-knackery-abuse

[inez]

People know it but would rather not have to think about it, and the line "as long as it's done humanely" is an easy one to say not so easy to actually achieve in animals which are not bred for meat. It's news because it's wastage and that is a bigger deal than it used to be. It's also news because of the horsemeat scandal in the UK bringing the issue into the public awareness, horse meat in Australia doesn't just go to pet meat it goes to human consumption as well and processing issues with a species with such variation in size and temperament can result in welfare issues.

ETA I remember this article came out on one of the horse forums a little while ago, I was surprised at the people denying it happens since you've only got to go to a horse sale on any given day and watch the doggers get a truckload.

What a foolish thing to say?

Even human meat has been on the menu in case no one remembers.

Where the human race is concerned, somewhere, someplace EVERYTHING and anything, is 'bred for meat'

If you had a clue as to the inteligance of Pigs they certainly do not think they were born to be eaten.

This is a species with just about double the brains and learning ability of a horse or a dog, so just what do you think denotes which breeds or species are acceptable as being "bred for meat"?

Selective breeding in meat animals is different to selective breeding in racehorses, most meat animals are bred firstly for meat quality and secondly for docility to make them easier to handle and process, racehorses are bred to run fast and have a lightning quick reaction time. Not traits which facilitate a smooth and stress free slaughter process.

Before you accuse me of being foolish perhaps you need to look at what it means to achieve a humane slaughter and how often it is realistically achieved, even in purpose bred meat animals the handling, stun and slaughter is not always perfect and stress free so add in factors such as heightened flight reactions to stressed animals and you reduce the likelihood of good welfare outcomes further.

Which may I ask you has the 'heightent' flight response?

The sheep, goat or cow?, that has NEVER been haltered, led and groomed, hand or brush on the forehead to have its face and forlock brushed, accustomed to people all around it all hours of the day or night or the off the track tb who has?

Which one is going to be afraid when a human comes near enough to place the stun gun to their forehead without going inside their "flight" zone?

I for one do not think it will be the ex racehorse.

Don't like the comfort zone resoned?

Sorry pepe001 didn' spot you had already covered that, spot on

Edited March 16, 2013 by inez

[WoofnHoof]

Actually inez if you've ever transported horses you would know they are more prone to injury than other species as a result of various factors including flight responses, that's why when we transport them we wrap them up in boots etc. There is plenty of evidence to support the position that there are numerous welfare issues which are implicated in the slaughter of horses which do not necessarily apply to other species.

Pepe some gallopers deal with these things just fine, some don't and when they don't things go very bad very quickly. The handling that racehorses get prior to being dumped is not universally good, some are well handled and don't have issues but a lot haven't had the best treatment making them even worse to handle, one of the variabilities I mentioned. It makes it very difficult to devise a handling system that accomodates these variabilities. Modern handling systems for cattle, for example, work on a principle that they will all be roughly the same size, and behave in very similar and predictable ways as they do receive minimal handling so it's easier to work out a pressure release system that can be applied generically. But the best system in the world still doesn't have 100% perfect stunning/bolt shot effect so you still get a small percentage of concious animals by the stage of evisceration, and that is in cattle which have a consistent head/brain shape and bone density.

[inez]

Actually inez if you've ever transported horses you would know they are more prone to injury than other species as a result of various factors including flight responses, that's why when we transport them we wrap them up in boots etc. There is plenty of evidence to support the position that there are numerous welfare issues which are implicated in the slaughter of horses which do not necessarily apply to other species.

Pepe some gallopers deal with these things just fine, some don't and when they don't things go very bad very quickly. The handling that racehorses get prior to being dumped is not universally good, some are well handled and don't have issues but a lot haven't had the best treatment making them even worse to handle, one of the variabilities I mentioned. It makes it very difficult to devise a handling system that accomodates these variabilities. Modern handling systems for cattle, for example, work on a principle that they will all be roughly the same size, and behave in very similar and predictable ways as they do receive minimal handling so it's easier to work out a pressure release system that can be applied generically. But the best system in the world still doesn't have 100% perfect stunning/bolt shot effect so you still get a small percentage of concious animals by the stage of evisceration, and that is in cattle which have a consistent head/brain shape and bone density.

Actually we have transported both and you may be astonished to discover the skin cuts the same,(in fact even though the hide IS thicker, Ive never heard a horse scream in pain like the cattle do, when I put the needle in for their tetanus shots, cattle do, Husband thought he would do the bull tied to the fence one day instead of in the crush, the bull hit the roof and tried to rub the needle out and squash hubby in the process, their skin seems far more sensitive from what I have seen with our own cattle than when I put the same size needle into one of my horses) bruises the same, thats why trucks have to be free of dangerous surfaces, even "have a consistent head/brain shape and bone density" for both species.

"Pepe some gallopers deal with these things just fine, some don't and when they don't things go very bad very quickly." same applies to Bos Indicus cattle, they will quite easily kill themselves, along with you too of course, witout a qualm in the world if you think you can treat them same as a Bos Taurus.

Horses, Donkeys, Mules, Cattle, Sheep, goats and pigs have one thing in common, they are all domesticated species.

Regardless of how many you may choose to keep as a pet, does not preculude them from being a souce of meat in a large proportion of the world.

How you face that fact is frankly a personal problem.

Edited March 16, 2013 by inez

[inez]

This facile talk of horses are not suitable for meat just because you LOVE your horse doesnt cut it.

My best pet of all time was a pig, she was simply amazing, every one who has ever been up close and personal with a pet pig will tell you the same thing. No self respecting pig will soil its bed, they roll in mud not feces, they love to be clean, their mud bath is their SPF50.

Where is the pig libbers?

Just because they dont smell delightfull, or their face doesnt make you feel all warm and cuddly towards them, is surely a poor excuse to leave this creature with significantly far greater inteligance than every other species that goes along with them to the same fate so many believe no horse, or dog for that matter (pigs are smarter than dogs, how many of you know that?) should face?

compliments of google

, “No man should be allowed to be President who does not understand hogs.” Most people know very little about these fascinating animals. In fact, pigs are curious and insightful animals thought to have intelligence beyond that of an average 3-year-old human child. They are smarter than dogs and every bit as friendly, loyal, and affectionate. When in their natural surroundings, not on factory farms, they are social, playful, protective animals who bond with each other, make beds, relax in the sun, and cool off in the mud.

Since most people are not that familiar with pigs, you may be surprised to learn that they dream, recognize their names, play video games more effectively than some primates, and lead social lives of a complexity previously observed only in primates.

People who run animal sanctuaries often describe pigs with human characteristics, because they’ve learned that, like humans, pigs enjoy listening to music, playing with soccer balls, and getting massages."

Edited March 16, 2013 by inez

[WoofnHoof]

We are not talking about pigs we are talking about horses, and there are physiological differences as well as psychological differences across the range of breeds that impact on their welfare when applied in a generic meat processing scenario. Is there some reason you cannot acknowledge that breeds which have been selected for generations for a certain purpose may not be ideally suited for a different purpose as a result? I own a husky, if you want a dog that comes when called most people will advise not to get this breed, recall is not something that has been considered important to husky breeders and therefore it is not something that they are geared towards or comes easily to them.

It's very simple, if people want to use horses for meat then breed towards ones that are suitable for purpose, there are some draft breeds that are purpose bred for meat overseas for example. But don't pretend that sending TBs or kids ponies for meat is okay just because it is inconvenient to consider otherwise.

[Ripley]

Pepe, I did some googling about Deposer and read various info that he never made it to Australia but that was the intention. His owner was a Hong Kong billionaire, Harry Chen Kar. Other reports that he was sold for $220 to a dogger in a vic sale and that is where the footage is from? I stopped going to the races years ago and could never go again. Don't even watch Melb Cup anymore. Just so sad for that beautiful horse.

eta: On the youtube clip I scrolled through the comments (I had time today) and Deposer's trainer, John Best, posted under the youtube video after someone obviously sent it to his website.

John Best, Deposer's trainer says: "We at Best Racing trained Deposer in the UK until summer 2009 when he was sold to a new owner/trainer to continue his racing career in Hong Kong. We are all absolutely devastated at the news about Deposer as we take seriously the welfare and happiness of the horses in our care. If a horse doesn't remain in racing we always find a suitable, loving home for them and are sorry that this wasn't the case for Deposer. Unfortunately when a horse is sold we have no control over what happens to them."

The person who filmed the clip says she had no idea the gorgeous horse there was Deposer, cross posted from the youtube video she/he filmed:

"We had no idea who he was that day, all we knew was that he was such a special boy, but then a few weeks after the sales my friend tracked down his brands and found out who he was."

Edited March 17, 2013 by Ripley