Boofer From B Hill (imp 24 )

[Moody]

Absolutely agree with you Tidierikx, and Aphra and minimax. As I said before, those who have taken on the task of helping this girl and her dozen pups, or who are offering to help, should be thanked. All highly reputable, conscientious and principled rescue folk. Many of us will vouch for this. Let's just end all the agitating now.

[Trisven13]

But I don't comprehend WHY any pups would need to be removed from their mother at 4 weeks???

When I ran the rescue and we had people ringing to surrender pups we refused to take them until they were 8 weeks old. Unless the mother dies the pups should stay with her. If the mother is aggressive the pups should be pts also IMO.

As for taking on the bitch in Broken Hill, after rescuing hundreds of dogs over 6 years I'm no longer involved in rescue - I didn't realise you had to be actively rescuing to have an opinion. :laugh:

I have whelped and raised around 12 rescue litters - I can't think of a single instance where the pups were removed from foster home where the mums was until they were 8 weeks old. They should be whelped & raised as if they were bred by an ethical registered breeder. I would say EXACTLY the same thing to a registered breeder who contemplated removing pups from mum before 8 weeks and have done so.

[minimax]

But I don't comprehend WHY any pups would need to be removed from their mother at 4 weeks???

When I ran the rescue and we had people ringing to surrender pups we refused to take them until they were 8 weeks old. Unless the mother dies the pups should stay with her. If the mother is aggressive the pups should be pts also IMO.

As for taking on the bitch in Broken Hill, after rescuing hundreds of dogs over 6 years I'm no longer involved in rescue - I didn't realise you had to be actively rescuing to have an opinion. :laugh:

I have whelped and raised around 12 rescue litters - I can't think of a single instance where the pups were removed from foster home where the mums was until they were 8 weeks old. They should be whelped & raised as if they were bred by an ethical registered breeder. I would say EXACTLY the same thing to a registered breeder who contemplated removing pups from mum before 8 weeks and have done so.

I still can't find anywhere in this thread where anyone said they would be removed at 4 weeks, it seems to be something you made up, so if there is any confusion it seems to be all your own doing!

[Alyosha]

I would never accuse Rhonda or Nina of a money making venture, quite the opposite. But these pigging crosses are so abundant in shelters and rescues, and can struggle to find homes at the best of times. And the temperaments can vary from awesome to awful.

I do really struggle with the concept of bringing more into the world unnecessarily. And like already pointed out - sentimentality aside, late desexing is usually far less risk for the bitch than whelping. So folks who can't bring themselves to do it are potentially putting her at greater risk due to nothing but their own warm and fuzzy feelings about baby puppies.

Rescuing a worthy bitch then subjecting her to the risk, trauma and stress of raising a litter from an unknown health, nutrition and temperament background seems pretty well swayed to the human emotion side of the scale, and not to the whats-best-for-the-bitch end.

[tdierikx]

In rare instances pups may need to be removed from their mother earlier than usual. I had a 4 week old pup come into my care on vet advice - she simply wasn't thriving, and the vet advised taking her and one of her littermates (for company) away from mum to see if we could help her along with some intensive one-on-one care. It worked a charm, and a couple of weeks later she was much stronger and able to go back with the rest of the litter.

There have been other instances where the mother dogs have just been bred once too often and they are just not overly inclined to care for their pups after the initial few weeks. In those cases, ALL pups are cared for together, and given plenty of socialisation with good tempered adult "role model" dogs, humans, etc...

In a perfect world the recommended method will always work - but unfortunately rescue isn't always perfect... and how we make good what wasn't is what truly matters, yes?

T.

[Panto]

guys this is heartbreaking, please give each other the benefit of the doubt, I believe everyone is agreeing on keeping pups with mum til they are 8weeks. I read T's post as there had been success because there had been complications with mum therefore requiring early removal, or perhaps they were orphaned for any given reason.

trisven, indigirl, t & nina, I have followed your rescue efforts lurking with the possibility I can stick my hand up and help at some point, and you guys all do amazing work. please give each other the benefit of the doubt here regardless of what history there may or may not be, you guys have huge hearts of gold.

:flower: :flower:

[Trisven13]

But I don't comprehend WHY any pups would need to be removed from their mother at 4 weeks???

When I ran the rescue and we had people ringing to surrender pups we refused to take them until they were 8 weeks old. Unless the mother dies the pups should stay with her. If the mother is aggressive the pups should be pts also IMO.

As for taking on the bitch in Broken Hill, after rescuing hundreds of dogs over 6 years I'm no longer involved in rescue - I didn't realise you had to be actively rescuing to have an opinion. :laugh:

I have whelped and raised around 12 rescue litters - I can't think of a single instance where the pups were removed from foster home where the mums was until they were 8 weeks old. They should be whelped & raised as if they were bred by an ethical registered breeder. I would say EXACTLY the same thing to a registered breeder who contemplated removing pups from mum before 8 weeks and have done so.

I still can't find anywhere in this thread where anyone said they would be removed at 4 weeks, it seems to be something you made up, so if there is any confusion it seems to be all your own doing!

If any other rescues can share the workload of taking some pups in a few weeks please let me know :D

You'll probably find that these little ones will be weaned by their mum fairly early in the piece - of all the large breed litters we've had born in rescue, I can only remember one bitch who was still actively wanting to feed her pups on a regular basis after 4 weeks... and with a litter of 12, I'm seeing this girl possibly being "over it" around the same timeframe.

Pups that come to my place have surrogate mother figures in my older 2 dogs... who are only too happy to nurture them as if they were their own pups and teach them correct behaviours and how to get along.

I've fostered pups as young as 4 weeks old here - not by choice, but with the right exposures to the right stimuli, they've all turned out to be lovely well-adjusted little canine citizens.

T.

Nina asked for help in a few weeks for pups only born days earlier - I'm sorry but I don't think 8 when I read few and on googling "how many is a few" I find it to be a small number, often taken to be 3 so I'm obviously not the only one.

Secondly tdierikx suggested that mum would not want to be feeding them regularly from 4 weeks AND that she had fostered pups from as young as 4 weeks....

Pretty sure that is not me making it up - yes it is me reading two things and linking them but I don't think that is entirely out of left field.

Anyway - as I said I'm happy that Nina has confirmed that they will be staying with mum until they're 8 weeks old. I'm still curious as to why pups would need to be removed from mum at 4 weeks which has obviously happened with pups tdierikx has fostered. Whilst I may not be actively involved in rescue at the moment I was for 6 years whilst setting up & running Albury Dog Rescue. I regularly took on late stage pregnant bitches and whelped and raised the pups so I have some experience in this regard.

Edited March 15, 2013 by Trisven13

[minimax]

Nina asked for help in a few weeks for pups only born days earlier - I'm sorry but I don't think 8 when I read few and on googling "how many is a few" I find it to be a small number, often taken to be 3 so I'm obviously not the only one.

Secondly tdierikx suggested that mum would not want to be feeding them regularly from 4 weeks AND that she had fostered pups from as young as 4 weeks....

Pretty sure that is not me making it up - yes it is me reading two things and linking them but I don't think that is entirely out of left field.

Anyway - as I said I'm happy that Nina has confirmed that they will be staying with mum until they're 8 weeks old. I'm still curious as to why pups would need to be removed from mum at 4 weeks which has obviously happened with pups tdierikx has fostered. Whilst I may not be actively involved in rescue at the moment I was for 6 years whilst setting up & running Albury Dog Rescue. I regularly took on late stage pregnant bitches and whelped and raised the pups so I have some experience in this regard.

I could give several scenarios as to two 4 week old pups might need to be fostered. Maybe the mother died? Maybe there were issues with the mother being agressive towards the pups? I'm pretty sure things happen outside of you seeing them ;)

[tdierikx]

I would never accuse Rhonda or Nina of a money making venture, quite the opposite. But these pigging crosses are so abundant in shelters and rescues, and can struggle to find homes at the best of times. And the temperaments can vary from awesome to awful.

I do really struggle with the concept of bringing more into the world unnecessarily. And like already pointed out - sentimentality aside, late desexing is usually far less risk for the bitch than whelping. So folks who can't bring themselves to do it are potentially putting her at greater risk due to nothing but their own warm and fuzzy feelings about baby puppies.

Rescuing a worthy bitch then subjecting her to the risk, trauma and stress of raising a litter from an unknown health, nutrition and temperament background seems pretty well swayed to the human emotion side of the scale, and not to the whats-best-for-the-bitch end.

All that aside, the pups are here now...

T.

[Trisven13]

In rare instances pups may need to be removed from their mother earlier than usual. I had a 4 week old pup come into my care on vet advice - she simply wasn't thriving, and the vet advised taking her and one of her littermates (for company) away from mum to see if we could help her along with some intensive one-on-one care. It worked a charm, and a couple of weeks later she was much stronger and able to go back with the rest of the litter.

There have been other instances where the mother dogs have just been bred once too often and they are just not overly inclined to care for their pups after the initial few weeks. In those cases, ALL pups are cared for together, and given plenty of socialisation with good tempered adult "role model" dogs, humans, etc...

In a perfect world the recommended method will always work - but unfortunately rescue isn't always perfect... and how we make good what wasn't is what truly matters, yes?

T.

Thanks for your response - I missed it whilst typing mine.

I've had one bitch who wasn't overly interested in caring for her pups from very early on as she had breed to within an inch of her life BUT she still was in the same foster home with them and spent time with them disciplining them - it is those things that are vital more so than the caring for them side of things.

[tdierikx]

Nina asked for help in a few weeks for pups only born days earlier - I'm sorry but I don't think 8 when I read few and on googling "how many is a few" I find it to be a small number, often taken to be 3 so I'm obviously not the only one.

Secondly tdierikx suggested that mum would not want to be feeding them regularly from 4 weeks AND that she had fostered pups from as young as 4 weeks....

Pretty sure that is not me making it up - yes it is me reading two things and linking them but I don't think that is entirely out of left field.

Anyway - as I said I'm happy that Nina has confirmed that they will be staying with mum until they're 8 weeks old. I'm still curious as to why pups would need to be removed from mum at 4 weeks which has obviously happened with pups tdierikx has fostered. Whilst I may not be actively involved in rescue at the moment I was for 6 years whilst setting up & running Albury Dog Rescue. I regularly took on late stage pregnant bitches and whelped and raised the pups so I have some experience in this regard.

OK - Nina has said that the pups aren't going anywhere until they are ready - and preferably at 8 weeks of age.

My experience with SOME large breed rescue bitches with larger litters is that the bitch MAY start to actively discourage the pups from approaching her at around the 4 week mark. If she is only deterring them but not attacking them, we leave them with her. If she is actively attacking them because she is so over the experience, then we remove the pups from her. We don't separate pups from the litter unless there are other considerations like health involved there - if they go into care, then they ALL go into care together.

T.

[tdierikx]

OH - and my adult dogs are happy to help raise my fosters... good role models, and not averse to disciplining pups just like their mother would... *grin*

T.

[Loving my Oldies]

Nina asked for help in a few weeks for pups only born days earlier - I'm sorry but I don't think 8 when I read few and on googling "how many is a few" I find it to be a small number, often taken to be 3 so I'm obviously not the only one.

Secondly tdierikx suggested that mum would not want to be feeding them regularly from 4 weeks AND that she had fostered pups from as young as 4 weeks....

Pretty sure that is not me making it up - yes it is me reading two things and linking them but I don't think that is entirely out of left field.

Anyway - as I said I'm happy that Nina has confirmed that they will be staying with mum until they're 8 weeks old. I'm still curious as to why pups would need to be removed from mum at 4 weeks which has obviously happened with pups tdierikx has fostered. Whilst I may not be actively involved in rescue at the moment I was for 6 years whilst setting up & running Albury Dog Rescue. I regularly took on late stage pregnant bitches and whelped and raised the pups so I have some experience in this regard.

I could give several scenarios as to two 4 week old pups might need to be fostered. Maybe the mother died? Maybe there were issues with the mother being agressive towards the pups? I'm pretty sure things happen outside of you seeing them ;)

Of course there are plenty of scenarios where anything from just born to whatever age the pups are needing fostering. That is not and never was the issue here. Mother is alive and well.

[Loving my Oldies]

And if we are talking scenarios, let me hypothesize.

A bitch comes into the pound, say a pound in NSW. At the date of impoundment she shows no sign of being pregnant.

If she is not microchipped she has to be kept for 7 days before she goes up for adoption. If at the date of impoundment she has shown no sign of being pregnant, what a chances that a pregnancy will be evident at the end of those 7 days?

If she is microchipped and the owners (whether traced or not) don't reclaim her, she is kept for 14 days before she goes up for adoption. Ditto as to would there be evidence after 14 days that she was pregnant?

I imagine the question of the evidence of a pregnancy depends to a certain extent on the breed and build of the dog.

Now the rescue community is very vocal via all sorts of social media these days, not just DOL (although there are some misguided people who think if it isn't happening on DOL, it isn't happening :D ). Pounds have their own websites, rescue groups (good and bad) have their own facebook sites, there are the listings in the Urgent Rescue section of DOL. There is the PetRescue sites, their a people setting up their own blogs, etc etc etc.

Pounds don't wait until the 7 or 14 days are up before the dog goes onto the website. Most often, the dog is on their website from Day 1 or 2.

Therefore, the way I see it is that the chances of this dog not being known about to at least a few people in the rescue community are very slim.

So the thoughts that are rolling around in my brain are about why the pound isn't aborting the pups and why, if a rescue is going to take the dog, do they wait until it is too late to abort the pups? If a dog in a pound is known to be pregnant and a rescue group knows it is going to take the dog, how can the pregnancy be allowed to continue .

I know very few pounds have a desexing policy and many councils would prefer that lost dogs and pounds just disappear and won't spend any money, so my question doesn't need that answer. And I also know that pound staff can be way off in terms of knowing whether a dog is pregnant and even whether or not she has just had pups or not. And the latter I know from personal experience, not hearsay. :)

[tdierikx]

From what I gather about this particular girl, no-one was willing to step up to rescue her until later in the piece. Nina and her contacts ended up taking her in at an advanced stage of pregnancy.

Don't forget that some vets simply won't do a late term abortion... and some rescuers aren't fussed on doing it either for whatever reasons they choose. Unless one is the person directly involved in making such decisions for the particular rescue involved, one really needs to pull one's head in instead of kicking the crap out of the gate long after the horse has bolted.

The facts here are - the pups are here, mum is content with them so far, and the rescue involved has asked if others could help when the time comes to get these little ones prepared to go to new homes themselves. Nothing more, nothing less.

Hey Nina... can we have some new puppy and mum pics please? I think we need a bit of "awwww cute" factor in this thread again... *grin*

T.

[ninahartland]

"So the thoughts that are rolling around in my brain are about why the pound isn't aborting the pups and why, if a rescue is going to take the dog, do they wait until it is too late to abort the pups? If a dog in a pound is known to be pregnant and a rescue group knows it is going to take the dog, how can the pregnancy be allowed to continue "

Why would the pound desex and abort pups on a dog that at that point didnt have rescue ? She didnt have rescue for a long time and she had been in the pound since mid Jan at least. No pound is going to pay to desex a dog when they dont even know if it will get rescue...some might but not B Hill anyway.

As I said before, by the time we put our name on her it was as a last resort to get her out as no one else was in a position to help her. Right or wrong we will not abort puppies at that late stage.......if other rescues can do it its entirely up to them.

Perhaps someone can help this girl who ranger thinks is pregnant, she's only 7-8 mths

[ninahartland]

Yes...puppy pics coming soon :D as soon as Rhonda takes them,lol

[Moody]

Yes Tdierikx, you are quite right in saying that some vets refuse to undertake late term abortions. My brother in law is a vet. He has practised for over 40 years now. He has been called upon to deal with some pretty confronting experiences dealing with animals, but I vividly recall him telling the story once of how he was required to conduct a late term abortion on a bitch and the emotional trauma for him of pulling out a uterus and 8 near term puppies. It was ghastly to listen to him relate that and to see how it obviously affected him. He has refused to undertake this procedure ever again.

[BlackJaq]

"So the thoughts that are rolling around in my brain are about why the pound isn't aborting the pups and why, if a rescue is going to take the dog, do they wait until it is too late to abort the pups? If a dog in a pound is known to be pregnant and a rescue group knows it is going to take the dog, how can the pregnancy be allowed to continue "

Why would the pound desex and abort pups on a dog that at that point didnt have rescue ? She didnt have rescue for a long time and she had been in the pound since mid Jan at least. No pound is going to pay to desex a dog when they dont even know if it will get rescue...some might but not B Hill anyway.

As I said before, by the time we put our name on her it was as a last resort to get her out as no one else was in a position to help her. Right or wrong we will not abort puppies at that late stage.......if other rescues can do it its entirely up to them.

Perhaps someone can help this girl who ranger thinks is pregnant, she's only 7-8 mths

Since this was such a huge issue for everyone, can somebody maybe find some room for this girl so she can get the snip? The pound will not just spay any females that come in for funsies, they are kept on as long as possible but if they do not get rescue or local adoption (which is not exactly an option we relish with a potentially pregnant bitch) then the last option is for Nina and Rhonda to take them on, or they can be put down.

Any help with this girl would be appreciated and if somebody wants to just cover her spay (as I have done in the past but cannot afford to at present, nor can I afford to do that for every single bitch in general) then monies can be paid to the vet directly without the need to commit to rescue the dog. As I said, any help will be greatly appreciated.

Edited March 15, 2013 by BlackJaq

[frenzied1]

Looking forward to more pics Nina, I LOVE BIG BOOFERS