Dogs Seized From No Kill Shelter

[AdelK9]

Just so everyone knows who they're talking to, AdelK9 is Mark Singer. I know this because of when he came on here and breached client confidentiality by revealing details about when Justice and I had seen him, in response to someone else stirring up trouble and naming him as our former behaviourist (which I had refused to confirm by the way).

Yes and its fine for you to speak out against me.. when all I did was state a fact.. That you came out to my group socialisation classes due to aggression issues with Justice.. and all I said was that every time you came out Justice NEVER showed any aggression. I have a right to defend myself too.

I am sure everyone can see who I am :) Thank you

[AdelK9]

I'm not going to get in to a tit for tat with you Mark but for the record I will state that I never named you and I never attacked you. All I said was that the methods of our former behaviourist didn't work for us and the current one does. I did not get specific as to why we stopped working with you until after you came on here and breached client confidentiality. If you want to take this up further do it via PM as I do not want this thread derailed.

I also don't think everyone would have known who they were speaking to.

I have no further comment to make, other than most on here knew you were seeing me. Then you tell them your former behaviourist didn't work for you. So yes I came in on the conversation to state why it didn't work.. Because Justice never displayed the behaviour when you were with me. I wasn't having a go at you... I even stated I am happy you found someone you could work with. End of story.

[casowner]

Can I ask why people focus on RSPCA kill rates and not the AWL? I am not supporting any side apart from the animals but I always see comments about the high RSPCA kill rates when the AWL is high too or was when I was there, very high

[casowner]

Yeah that makes sense, it just always makes me wonder as only one gets the negative publicity on kill rates and the AWL gets more animals through I believe so it would be interesting to do a rehoming, return, euthanasia comparison on the two

[casowner]

shame on you :laugh:

[AdelK9]

I have a question for you Mark about the RSCPA (who I also do not support). This is a genuine question and I'm not being bitchy (just thought I better make that clear so as not to be taken the wrong way).

I'm aware that you made a very generous offer to the RSPCA SA to voluntarily spend your time assessing and working with their dogs on behavioural issues, so as to help reduce their kill rate. Knowing that the RSPCA don't take kindly to public criticism and would be unlikely to work with anyone who had been negative about them in public, I am wondering why you didn't make this offer to them quietly and without criticising them online first, so that you could increase your chances of being taken up on the offer and perhaps make a real difference to how many dogs they euthanise for behavioural problems?

A valid question

I never considered it until someone on FB had a go at me for critising their high kill rate. As you know, I do not support or subscribe too purely positive training methods. RSPCA only use the services of Delta trained 'behaviourists'. I knew they wouldn't take up my offer, as for many years I have spoken out against the RSPCA and their training methods, and that of Delta. However I realised after that comment on FB, this person had a valid point. So I publicly announced my proposal to the RSPCA. Yes and a little harshly I admit. I however stand by my offer, and have many of my clients also offer their support and help to foster dogs and help with the rehabilitation.

RSPCA would never have taken up my offer, even if done privately. For one they only follow the purely positive doctrine of behaviour modification. Also if an outsider came in and all of a sudden their kill rates dropped, what does that say about their methods, and the methods of Delta? I know for a fact I could drop their kill rates due to behavioral problems by more than 90%. Their temperament assessment is flawed, and so are their behaviour modification methods in most cases.

My offer however remains open to them still.

[Are You Serious Jo]

So you support a hoarder situation because you don't like the rspca? Can you speak about the issues at Moorook and drop the rspca line, it has nothing to do with Moorook conditions.

Since you've admitted that you only know what Mark has told you maybe you want to be more cautious in supporting something based on the word of a man who cannot back up his claims and is now being excluded by Lola's legal team. He is not a reliable source of information because he has an agenda.

Have you reads about the cats Moorook said they turn loose on the ground because they have no where to put them? What about the old dogs who live for years on end in inadequate enclosures in the extreme heat and cold. What about the fact that Lola had 120 animals, how is she supposed to adequately care for them when Mark says she is a sick old woman and there are only a few regular volunteers that stick around?

There have been lots of pups being rehomed and developing parvo, contracted at Moorook, so your claim that they don't have disease is incorrect. Have you seen their quarantine? No hand washing or foot bath available and the free roaming cats can jump in.

People on the inside have been trying to get the rspca to act for years and finally they have. I suggest you might want to be more careful about supporting a woman with some serious cruelty charges hanging over her. I have no doubt she is in a lot of trouble. You say the charges won't stand up, why, because Mark says it's an easy win? Do you really think the rspca would proceed to prosecution if they didn't make sure they had good evidence in such a public case?

Are you just another person who thinks as long as the dog is alive it doesn't matter what conditions it lives in, because if you do, how do you feel about puppy farms?

Where did I admit, that I only know about the situation from what Mark has said? I have clients that obtained their dog from Moorook.. Many infact.

I also have confidentiality concerns too.. But I may know a lot more than you realise.

Where did I say things were 'perfect' at Moorook? Why did Moorook pass EVERY inspection, until this year? Even with the amount of dogs Lola had in, RSPCA passed her inspections, and council kept handing dogs to her? Tell me its not true that late last year Council approached RSPCA to open a shelter in the Riverland? So NOW its a big deal?

If the claims of cruelty are proven, which I don't believe they will be, then yes she should be charged. As anyone that is cruel to an animal. RSPCA are pretty fast too destroy evidence. Also to suggest that RSPCA don't go to court without all the facts in their favour. I can give you numerous examples where they have lost court cases.

I can't believe you are comparing a no-kill shelter to a puppy farm!

She has her supporters, and yes I am one of them. Everyone has a presumption of innocence until proven guilty. Just because a few (maybe even many) disgruntled people are against her, doesn't make her an evil person... She has her supporters too.

We will see what transpires.. As I said I know of many, many dog owners that have spoken highly about Moorook. Even a well regarded professional dog trainer in Adelaide, that helps rehabilitate dogs out there. I trust these peoples judgement. Not the ravings of people upset because the kennels aren't some high class establishment.

We wil lsee what happens on the 24th.....

If dogs are shoved into inadequate enclosures and there are too many for the people on site to care for you better believe I will compare those conditions. How is it any different, because she has a different name, no kill instead of puppy farmer. Can you give me a daily timetable of how one woman would manage to look after 120 animals? You might think it's perfectly fine to keep dogs locked into small cages in their own filth, have dirty water and chocolate milk and vermin exposed food to eat but some of us think dogs deserve better than that. Not to mention there is no way she could have given those dogs sufficient attention each day. Some of those poor dogs are so aggressive they won't be rehomed, she does rehome some aggressive ones though, so they live in shit conditions till they die. How awesome for them. What about the cats, living loose, no protection from feral cats, disease and being run over. Can you justify that?

As for your clients supporting her, how many got their dogs delivered and have never seen the place? She doesn't let many people in because too many make rspca complaints so they can buy a dog sight unseen and it gets delivered. Great rehoming system there. It is very difficult to get a cruelty conviction charge to stick so I understand why they don't seize unless they are confident they will get a conviction. It is also difficult to deal with situations like Mark created so maybe they didn't act until they knew they had enough irrefutable evidence.

I'm shocked someone in your position supports hoarding, especially when you admit all your information is second hand. She has said she won't cap her numbers to what she can manage, so do you think everyone should take on more animals than they can manage or only the people that you can use to point score against the rspca.

[Are You Serious Jo]

I haven't watched it yet, will see if I can wifi somewhere that lets me see it unless the file size is small.

[WreckitWhippet]

The RSPCA and Moorook are separate issues. Just because the RSPCA suck does not mean that Moorook should be entitled to treat animals inhumanely in the name of rescuing them. Two wrongs don't make a right.

apparently in this case it does

[AdelK9]

Also, can people please post their thoughts on the Today Tonight story after they've watched it? I'm really interested in knowing what everyone thinks since my assessment of it seems to be on another planet compared to what most of the Moorook supporters have been saying about it.

I guess like anything.. our experience is coloured by our beliefs.. I found it to be honest and open. I believe it doesn't show RSPCA in a very good light.. I also believe it shows that Moorook are doing the best they can with the lack of funding and resources they have...

[AdelK9]

So you support a hoarder situation because you don't like the rspca? Can you speak about the issues at Moorook and drop the rspca line, it has nothing to do with Moorook conditions.

Since you've admitted that you only know what Mark has told you maybe you want to be more cautious in supporting something based on the word of a man who cannot back up his claims and is now being excluded by Lola's legal team. He is not a reliable source of information because he has an agenda.

Have you reads about the cats Moorook said they turn loose on the ground because they have no where to put them? What about the old dogs who live for years on end in inadequate enclosures in the extreme heat and cold. What about the fact that Lola had 120 animals, how is she supposed to adequately care for them when Mark says she is a sick old woman and there are only a few regular volunteers that stick around?

There have been lots of pups being rehomed and developing parvo, contracted at Moorook, so your claim that they don't have disease is incorrect. Have you seen their quarantine? No hand washing or foot bath available and the free roaming cats can jump in.

People on the inside have been trying to get the rspca to act for years and finally they have. I suggest you might want to be more careful about supporting a woman with some serious cruelty charges hanging over her. I have no doubt she is in a lot of trouble. You say the charges won't stand up, why, because Mark says it's an easy win? Do you really think the rspca would proceed to prosecution if they didn't make sure they had good evidence in such a public case?

Are you just another person who thinks as long as the dog is alive it doesn't matter what conditions it lives in, because if you do, how do you feel about puppy farms?

Where did I admit, that I only know about the situation from what Mark has said? I have clients that obtained their dog from Moorook.. Many infact.

I also have confidentiality concerns too.. But I may know a lot more than you realise.

Where did I say things were 'perfect' at Moorook? Why did Moorook pass EVERY inspection, until this year? Even with the amount of dogs Lola had in, RSPCA passed her inspections, and council kept handing dogs to her? Tell me its not true that late last year Council approached RSPCA to open a shelter in the Riverland? So NOW its a big deal?

If the claims of cruelty are proven, which I don't believe they will be, then yes she should be charged. As anyone that is cruel to an animal. RSPCA are pretty fast too destroy evidence. Also to suggest that RSPCA don't go to court without all the facts in their favour. I can give you numerous examples where they have lost court cases.

I can't believe you are comparing a no-kill shelter to a puppy farm!

She has her supporters, and yes I am one of them. Everyone has a presumption of innocence until proven guilty. Just because a few (maybe even many) disgruntled people are against her, doesn't make her an evil person... She has her supporters too.

We will see what transpires.. As I said I know of many, many dog owners that have spoken highly about Moorook. Even a well regarded professional dog trainer in Adelaide, that helps rehabilitate dogs out there. I trust these peoples judgement. Not the ravings of people upset because the kennels aren't some high class establishment.

We wil lsee what happens on the 24th.....

If dogs are shoved into inadequate enclosures and there are too many for the people on site to care for you better believe I will compare those conditions. How is it any different, because she has a different name, no kill instead of puppy farmer. Can you give me a daily timetable of how one woman would manage to look after 120 animals? You might think it's perfectly fine to keep dogs locked into small cages in their own filth, have dirty water and chocolate milk and vermin exposed food to eat but some of us think dogs deserve better than that. Not to mention there is no way she could have given those dogs sufficient attention each day. Some of those poor dogs are so aggressive they won't be rehomed, she does rehome some aggressive ones though, so they live in shit conditions till they die. How awesome for them. What about the cats, living loose, no protection from feral cats, disease and being run over. Can you justify that?

As for your clients supporting her, how many got their dogs delivered and have never seen the place? She doesn't let many people in because too many make rspca complaints so they can buy a dog sight unseen and it gets delivered. Great rehoming system there. It is very difficult to get a cruelty conviction charge to stick so I understand why they don't seize unless they are confident they will get a conviction. It is also difficult to deal with situations like Mark created so maybe they didn't act until they knew they had enough irrefutable evidence.

I'm shocked someone in your position supports hoarding, especially when you admit all your information is second hand. She has said she won't cap her numbers to what she can manage, so do you think everyone should take on more animals than they can manage or only the people that you can use to point score against the rspca.

I see your views as nothing but exaggerations.. But each too their own :)

[Are You Serious Jo]

I have plenty of people tell me the same thing, people who were volunteers there. You have what, the rantings of a man who is using Moorook to further his political career, or should I say, aspiring career.

Would you care to see the screenshot of Moorook admitting to the loose cats? The thing is, we have been working from what Mark or Moorook say, you are working on posts with no evidence. Mark confirmed there were 120 animals at the time of the raid, can you please do a sample routine for caring for that many animals each day? Why are you unable to address specific concerns that we can show proof of?

[BlackJaq]

My offer however remains open to them still.

I do wish they would take you up on it since I am sick of seeing dogs destroyed for high prey drive and similar stupidity. These so-called issues are perfectly manageable as owners of various Pointing, Retrieving and other working breeds demonstrate every day

Back on topic, that TT episode showed some pretty unsafe pens with loose wire and tin edges accessible to dogs (since the pens seem to be constructed from it). My dog has cut herself on the edge of a sheet of corrugated iron before so I have an idea what kind of damage it can do. I do not find many of the kennels that were shown to be particularly safe and they did not look like they would offer a lot of relief from summer temperatures either.

I do not subscribe to the idea that anything is better than death and when it comes to living beings sometimes quality might be more important than quantity (this includes quality of life but also quantity of dogs vs quality of individual care etc)

[AdelK9]

I have plenty of people tell me the same thing, people who were volunteers there. You have what, the rantings of a man who is using Moorook to further his political career, or should I say, aspiring career.

Would you care to see the screenshot of Moorook admitting to the loose cats? The thing is, we have been working from what Mark or Moorook say, you are working on posts with no evidence. Mark confirmed there were 120 animals at the time of the raid, can you please do a sample routine for caring for that many animals each day? Why are you unable to address specific concerns that we can show proof of?

As I said you are entitled to your opinion.. I beg to differ...

We could go on an on.. I listen to people that I know, my clients and another professional. I do not know Mark.. I only found out about him, because I was disgusted in the way RSPCA handled this, and by their (in my opinion) corrupt and underhanded activities.

I was posting about this way before I even knew Mark existed.....

As I said, the truth will come out soon :)

[BlackJaq]

I suggest you watch the video. As I said, you get a pretty good look of the facilities and I shudder to think what they were like previous to the improvements

Edited June 1, 2013 by BlackJaq

[Are You Serious Jo]

I've been speaking out about the rspca long before I knew about Mark too, so what.

So you can't actually address anything I've raised because? You know it's indefensible? You know I will bring out the proof? Why bother coming here if you just wanted to do a cut and paste Mark A propaganda post. The Mark supporters all seem to have one quality in common, they suddenly fall silent when asked specific questions about bad practice that Mark and Moorook themselves posted. It would look bad if you did support the things I've raised. I won't even go into the unprofessionalism you showed by discussing a client. You know I was actually sending people your way, more fool me huh.

[AdelK9]

I suggest you watch the video. As I said, you get a pretty good look of the facilities and I shudder to think what they were like previous to the improvements

I have seen them all.. and the TT expose.... I said no they are not high class kennels, yes pretty run down.. No doubt.

[AdelK9]

I've been speaking out about the rspca long before I knew about Mark too, so what.

So you can't actually address anything I've raised because? You know it's indefensible? You know I will bring out the proof? Why bother coming here if you just wanted to do a cut and paste Mark A propaganda post. The Mark supporters all seem to have one quality in common, they suddenly fall silent when asked specific questions about bad practice that Mark and Moorook themselves posted. It would look bad if you did support the things I've raised. I won't even go into the unprofessionalism you showed by discussing a client. You know I was actually sending people your way, more fool me huh.

Thats all you can do is talk about Mark.. I think this goes a lot deeper with you than just Moorook :)

[Are You Serious Jo]

Well I only became aware of Mark when he started his disastrous media campaign about Moorook. I'm guessing that the Mark camp have repeated their lie to you that I was thrown out of Moorook by Lola? Except that never happened because I haven't been to Moorook. People here know we had a big thread about Moorook about three years ago. It came out that they weren't desexing and vaccinating all animals before rehoming, didn't have enough money they said. I offered to help by taking a long termer and showing by example how to rehome for a higher price through established rescue resources. I was told they didn't want my help. That has now turned into she is bitter because she was thrown out for being a looney :laugh: I have the pms from the Moorook volunteer tucked away in an archive and when I find it I'll post it.

So what reason other than an outright lie would I have for speaking out? That's right, many people told me how bad it was when I lived not far from there. Lots of animal people get to know each other in the Riverland and the conditions at Moorook were no secret. So would you care to talk about any issues that are fact and can be shown to be fact or are you here because Mark needed to send in backup? If you think the things they have done are perfectly ok why are you avoiding talking about them and resorting to mark's tactics of insulting instead? I can keep to the issues, why can't you?

[AdelK9]

Well I only became aware of Mark when he started his disastrous media campaign about Moorook. I'm guessing that the Mark camp have repeated their lie to you that I was thrown out of Moorook by Lola? Except that never happened because I haven't been to Moorook. People here know we had a big thread about Moorook about three years ago. It came out that they weren't desexing and vaccinating all animals before rehoming, didn't have enough money they said. I offered to help by taking a long termer and showing by example how to rehome for a higher price through established rescue resources. I was told they didn't want my help. That has now turned into she is bitter because she was thrown out for being a looney :laugh: I have the pms from the Moorook volunteer tucked away in an archive and when I find it I'll post it.

So what reason other than an outright lie would I have for speaking out? That's right, many people told me how bad it was when I lived not far from there. Lots of animal people get to know each other in the Riverland and the conditions at Moorook were no secret. So would you care to talk about any issues that are fact and can be shown to be fact or are you here because Mark needed to send in backup? If you think the things they have done are perfectly ok why are you avoiding talking about them and resorting to mark's tactics of insulting instead? I can keep to the issues, why can't you?

Just because you have a vendetta against Mark, don't drag me into it. I don't even personally know the guy

I happen to not agree with a lot of what you are saying.. and no arguing back and forth is going to change that for either of us....

Have a good day :)