Vibrating Collar Or E-collar For Deaf Dog

[Lollipup]

Further to what sas said - I have seen the vibrate function really scare the crap out of dogs too. And the low level stims they hardly feel.

You could condition a stim to a reward so that the dog comes running to you and giving you attention when it feels it. It could have a positive value very similar to what a clicker does when conditioned. You could even use it the exact same way.

Every other trainer I have spoken to who uses e-collars has felt the stims on themselves. I always test tools on my own skin before using it on dogs, including on my neck.

My e-collar has actually been used on more people than it has on dogs.

[julesluvscavs]

Does she have aquired deafness or been deaf since birth? There is a big difference between the two.

Aquired deafness :)

[superminty]

Thanks everyone for their replies.

FYI, I am quite aware of the legalities of the use of e-collars in Vic. That's a non-issue in this case.

I have contacted a few behaviourists and have some recommendations, just trying the DOL brains trust as well :-)

I'd be training this dog to respond to the stim/vibrate as a cue to pay attention to the handler, so the handler can then decide if a further cue if required i.e. come, drop etc. Ideally we'll get to the stage where the dog will be able run off lead (personally I would prefer that only be in a fenced area or with a long line attached just in case - but I am quite risk averse).

Apparently you can get vibration collars with variable levels. I really can't see how that would be much different to an e-collar, if you assume that you start at the level where the dog can only just perceive the vibration, and then condition it to mean good things. An increase in the level of vibration might be aversive to the dog, just like an increase in the stim level.

I've never let anyone use an e-collar before using it on themselves. I can't feel the levels most dogs work on, and even when I can feel it, it feels...weird...not painful, just weird. I could probably condition myself to feel pretty good about it with the timely delivery of some chocolate :laugh:

Thanks to those too that say the vibration feature has scared some dogs - want to avoid that if possible.

Edited March 7, 2013 by superminty

[Rosetta]

Well as they are banned in several States - including SA, ACT and NSW - I can only presume that law is there for a reason whether you agree with it or not. Perhaps because of the potential for mis-use? I also presume that your "clients" are in Victoria and have a vet's authority for the use of one on this deaf dog?

Thanks for the info Lollipup - I wonder how many people have actually tried the collars on themselves?

Not to be rude but the OP didn't ask for your opinion on the collar, she asked for people's experience with an ecollar and a deaf dog.

Its not my "opinion" - its the law. This would be a pretty strange forum if opinion was banned anyway. Stepping away now - I have seen how people are flamed for saying anything negative about e-collars.

Seriously! You should do some research into them before you comment on something you clearly no nothing about.

Excuse me? Are you saying that they are not banned in certain States? If you are a trainer then you are showing your ignorance - better let the RSPCA know how wrong they are then.

http://kb.rspca.org.au/Is-the-use-of-electronic-dog-collars-legal_279.html

Can you please stop taking this thread off topic? If you want a discussion on whether it is illegal to use e collars, start a new topic. I personally was interested in some of the responses that this thread might get but you have totally taken it off course.

For a person that is a stickler for rules, maybe you should read the forum rule 12 which you agreed to when you joined.

Sorry you don't get to dictate how people can respond in threads. I was happy to just step away until I was accused of "noing nothing". I wanted to clarify what the laws were in each State - you may not care but others do. It hasn't stopped anyone else offering opinions or information.

And seriously - have you followed the threads on DOL at all? My posts are nowhere near as "off-topic" as many others.

Edited March 7, 2013 by Rosetta

[lovemesideways]

An E-collar on a deaf dog Sorry don't know the background but that sounds awful

I just want to address this comment.

Have you used a E-collar? Held one as it was switched up and down between the 100+ different levels? I can understand your reaction. A shock collar that electrocutes a dog!??? How Awful! But what seems to me missed out, is the levels of power that can be used.

They generally have over 100 levels of stimulation (the collar I own has up to 127 I believe). Yes, they can be painful (As can any harness, halti or collar if used incorrectly), but on a low level, you can either not even feel it, or feel a slightly tickling or tingling.

A slight tingling on the neck, maybe a little itchy. Easily trained so that the dog will associate it with the owner. Allowing a deaf dog to have more freedom off leash! Sounds pretty great to me :)

[melzawelza]

I wonder how many people have actually tried the collars on themselves?

I don't know anyone who advocates the educated use of e-collars who HASN'T tried it on themselves. That's why we advocate them. We know that they are used at such low levels that they certainly aren't devastating or painful. More mildly annoying for the dog. They get fantastic results in training and dogs that are trained properly with them end up more confident and punchy than they were beforehand.

MY question is - have you tried one on yourself?

[Sparassidae]

The vibrate can scare the crap of of some dogs. We recently sent a collar to someone with a deaf dane and it did exactly that. The low level stims would have been far less worrysome.

The only one of my dogs to be okay with the vibrate was my working dog - all of our other dogs are scared shit less of it.

[Sparassidae]

Thanks for the info Lollipup - I wonder how many people have actually tried the collars on themselves?

I used to take my two dog model one to the pub after work, we'd have contests on who could withstand the highest levels for certain periods of time to determine who bought the next round.

It was quite normal to have no winner.

[Weasels]

I can't speak fo Rosetta, but I would think any objection would be as much/more about the effect of a foreign, confusing sensation delivered to a dog just going along doing its thing, than the actual pain - especially for a dog which may already be a bit nervy due to the deafness. Although I'm sure this is avoidable if conditioned well at the start.

This one I have tried on myself! I recieved a shock 'out of the blue' (from my perspective) when I was a kid. Although the actual pain of the shock was minimal and quick, the surprise and confusion had a greater effect, to the point where even with the benefit of rationalisation and over 20 years since the event I still involuntarily cringe when I go near a wire fence.

Of course not something I'd worry about in this case with Superminty asking the question, but something I would mention about if someone at the dog park, for instance, suggested using a e-collar in this way.

Edited March 13, 2013 by TheLBD

[minimax]

I can't speak fo Rosetta, but I would think any objection would be as much/more about the effect of a foreign, confusing sensation delivered to a dog just going along doing its thing, than the actual pain - especially for a dog which may already be a bit nervy due to the deafness. Although I'm sure this is avoidable if conditioned well at the start.

This one I have tried on myself! I recieved a shock 'out of the blue' (from my perspective) when I was a kid. Although the actual pain of the shock was minimal and quick, the surprise and confusion had a greater effect, to the point where even with the benefit of rationalisation and over 20 years since the event I still involuntarily cringe when I go near a wire fence.

Of course not something I'd worry about in this case with Superminty asking the question, but something I would mention about if someone at the dog park, for instance, suggested using a e-collar in this way.

But if you were trained to associate the sensation with nice things, you might have a different perspective. Although an electric fence is a tad different to what is being talked about, since the OP did mention vibrating and not shock.

[Weasels]

But if you were trained to associate the sensation with nice things, you might have a different perspective. Although an electric fence is a tad different to what is being talked about, since the OP did mention vibrating and not shock.

I agree, as I've said twice in this thread. And was following on from people who said the vibration was scarier than the shock for some dogs; it's not just a matter whether it hurts, it's about how it's trained.

Edited March 13, 2013 by TheLBD

[Steve K9Pro]

I have used remote collars to train many deaf and blind dogs. Many remote collars have vibration or pager mode but commonly they have no way of adjusting the intensity if the vibration.

This in turn frightens many dogs and renders the vibration mode useless to train a "signal" as it generates avoidance.

When we use a modern remote collar we have levels so low, we can teach the dog to look at us when it receives the "signal".

The signal is the remote collar stimulation set at the level the dog can just perceive. There is no pain, fear or avoidance generated at this low level.

When a deaf dog receives this signal I want the dog to look at me and I can then give hand signals for the rest of the training.

Blind dogs I use it to teach a stop, this allows me to stop them bumping into things they can't see.

We also have a unit now that has adjustable vibration and no e stim for those who prefer it.

There is no need to feel that this needs to be an aversive method, instead it's effective and reliable.

[Erny]

Well as they are banned in several States - including SA, ACT and NSW - I can only presume that law is there for a reason whether you agree with it or not. Perhaps because of the potential for mis-use? I also presume that your "clients" are in Victoria and have a vet's authority for the use of one on this deaf dog?

Thanks for the info Lollipup - I wonder how many people have actually tried the collars on themselves?

There's potential for mis-use in anything. Heck ..... even just owning a dog opens it up to potential for mis-use.

And the law being "there for a reason"??? We have so many stupid and ill-founded laws. The reason some of them are there is because it makes some organisation or other .... and the Government, look good in the eyes of people who don't have a proper understanding of what the law is doing, the impact it has, and/or what the affect is (more often, "effect" is assumed). The Government feel pressured to doing something; it's too difficult and complex to draft a law and get it right; so the Government (Victorian, at least) go for "ban-it" because that's easiest (for them) and appears to the unknowing as though they're doing something.

Did you know that on one of the more recent laws that the Labor Government proposed here in Victoria, the Liberal Opposition boohooed it and agreed with those who saw how badly it would impact on innocent dogs and dog-owners that the Labor Government were making a silly move. Then we had an election and the Liberals gained Government before the proposal was put through. The Bill came up in Parliament. The Labor Opposition put up its proposal for this law. The Liberal Government said "the laws are flawed ....... but there will be no objection from the floor".

You're right. There's a reason. The reason for this one? "Because there is likely to be some other Bill that the Liberal Government want to kill" [so they let Labor have this one].

So just because there's a law, don't presume or assume it's a good and right one. Learn about the law and learn with an open and enquiring mind about the object or animal the law is restricting or banning before you draw a conclusion.

Just my 2 cents worth.

Stepping off soap-box now.

As to the OP's question - I have seen some dogs who find more aversion to the vibration of the collar than off a working level stim. But that's not to say it is a large sample of dogs by which to rely on this information. I think Steve (K9 Pro) has found the same, though.

Edited : Oops - just saw that Steve has posted.

Edited March 21, 2013 by Erny

[Lou Castle]

I've come across a surprising (to me) number of dogs who find the vibration highly aversive. Some of them panic when they feel it. But it's fairly easy to overcome, especially if you anticipate that this may happen, and take steps to prevent it. Start by familiarizing the dog with the sight and sound of the Ecollar receiver. Then press the vibration button with them a few feet away. Usually they'll be curious about it, and if you reinforce that with a treat, toy or praise, will not fear it. If they show some sign of fear, wrap the receiver in a towel, and do some play with them with it. That will muffle the sound and then you can gradually unwrap it, still making it vibrate, until they're desensitized to it.

After they're used to the sound, introduce the feel of it. You can keep it wrapped in the towel and touch it to them. The sensation will be muted by the towel and you can gradually unwrap it. Then you can start to use it for training.

I've found that more dogs are frightened by the vibration than by the stim.

[paddles]

I'd like to add a minor bit of trivia to this thread.. I have now strapped an e collar around my thigh, I have zapped myself. it hurts on the high levels. anyone who has brushed against an electric fence has had more of a zap. on the lower levels.. well here we call it physical therapy... anyone nay saying e collars, have you ever seen one? have you ever used one? have you ever seen one used?