Weave Training

[Elise+Hudson]

Hi guys,

You are probably all sick of my weaving and agility questions, but I have finally got some proper steel weave bases made up which is making my 2x2 training so much easier!

I had Hudson doing really well with the single 2 pole entry and could hit entries from any angle.

Moved to the 15 feet apart at 2/8 and he also did great. I was rewarding just over 50% of the time after the first base.

Moved them to 4 feet apart at 2/8 - continued great.

Moved them to 4 feet apart at 1/7 - also doing well, but started to ignore my toy in between poles and was completing full sets of poles and coming back for his toy.

This afternoon did another session and started with the poles at 2/8 again to make sure I wasn't pushing him to hard. and he was refusing to take the 1st set of poles again, going through the 2nd and looping back the wrong way through the 1st set. Nothing I could do would bring him around away from the poles, he just kept running through them the wrong way.

Now I can't seem to get him to take the first set - even if I open them right up and always reward the 1st set only.

Did anyone else run into trouble like this? I guess I have to go back to the 1 set of 2 poles again, but he has been doing this now for 3-4 weeks, I thought the single set of poles was pretty solid!

[megan_]

I haven't tought 2x2 (plan to use it with my boy who already weaves though...) so I can't help you specifically, but this is what I'd do:

Rewatch the DVD a few times. Really focus on the subtle things and critically ask yourself if you are following SG's method to a tee. NO weave training for a while until you've done this.

* Are you using a marker word or clicker correctly?

* Does he have a no reward marker (try again, not a correction, not in a harsh tone, just something to help tell him "you haven't got it yet, let's have another go").

* Have you been doing 1 set of poles for 3 - 4 weeks? This seems very long for this method. Maybe you've stayed on one step for too long and thinks this is what is required. SG moves through things very quickly, you get behaviour that is good enough and then move on straight away. You don't take the obedience "aim for perfection before moviong on" approach with her IMO.

* What are you doing when he gets things wrong. You say "nothing I could do could bring him around away from the poles". Are you maybe interfering too much and not letting him work it out for himself?

* You sould like you might have a few sets of poles set up and you only want him to go through one (the comment with the toy)? Is this correct? Is this how SG does it?

[ness]

I remember getting stuck at some point for a few sessions so I deliberately put them away for a few weeks and started again. It seemed to be enough to break her through the mental block.

The other thing I may do (would depend on the dog) is actually hold the dogs collar with their nose basically in between the poles and mark and throw the reward. I may then gradually move back and repeat. Works well if you have done any restrained recall type work or your dog doesn't shut down when you restrain them in any way.

Edited February 28, 2013 by ness

[J...]

Judging by what you've written and without seeing what's going on, this is where you've come unstuck...

Moved them to 4 feet apart at 1/7 - also doing well, but started to ignore my toy in between poles and was completing full sets of poles and coming back for his toy.

Ignoring the toy and moving on himself means you've just lost your value in your reward - either your dog is self-rewarding with the second set of poles or he's doing what he thinks he should be doing because you've now rewarded that. Regardless of why, the value for the 1st set of poles is no longer there.

If it was my dog, I'd go back to building the value for the reward first away from the poles. Go back and watch the DVD, take plenty of notes. Work on that reward and take a break for a few days.

Go back to building the value in your 1st set of two poles, work your entries around the clock and go again - make sure you are getting that reward in between 1st and 2nd poles very clearly. Don't rush, take the time it takes but make sure you're moving on when needed too.

[Elise+Hudson]

Thanks guys - yes you are supposed to reward between the first and second set of poles 50% of the time when starting, so they don't just skip to the 2nd set for their reward, just like Hudson is doing now.

I will take the 2nd set away and work on the entries to the first set again for a little bit before bringing the 2nd set in. He understands going through the poles when there are 2 sets is what is required - but gets stuck going through them any way he can and hes easily demotivated if he isn't getting it right. So yeah, I guess I will go back to the one set for a little.

I have ordered a new toy (tug and treat) which may help as he isn't either really food or toy motivated which can be hard! :)

Yeah I spent 3-4 weeks on the one set of poles because I didn't have a good setup and it was so hard to move them, now I have the proper equipment I will move along a bit faster once we get it.

Thanks for your help guys. Will see how he does tomorrow afternoon.

[kelpiechick]

Agree with Jess about value for the reward. You need to use something that your dog wants at all costs and will do just about anything to earn. If you don't have that type of motivation in place then it's hard to train anything. Everyone wants to get onto the 'exciting' stuff in regard to agility training but it is worthwhile getting really solid layers of reinforcement in place first even if it takes some time to do so. If your dog isn't truly motivated by either food or toys then you really have your work cut out for you and you have to get creative and find something that works. Think about your reward delivery too and make the whole process exciting.

In regard to your 2x2's, some other things to think about :

1. Are you record keeping? For each session you need to record your success percentage, reinforcement used, location, your positions on each try, whether you moved or stood still etc., where you sent dog from, any signs of stress from dog, etc. I know it sounds like a lot, but if you hit a problem (which is normal) then it really helps to be able to go back and pinpoint any little thing that may have contributed. Just for the record, it sounds like you are at pretty much the same point that I was with my youngest dog when our success dropped (we went from consistently 95% accuracy down to 30% accuracy when we moved the poles oh so slightly - even a tiny bit of rotation can change the picture a lot for some dogs so you need to be aware of this.)

2. When you add the 2nd set of poles make sure you put them in front of the original set, not behind. This is because you have theoretically already built value for the 2nd set so you now reward in between the 2 sets to build value for the new set added, which the dog is completing first. If my dog was doing the new set and was desperately trying to get to the 2nd set as well, I probably wouldn't be rewarding as much as 50% in between the poles, once you see they have the idea of looking for the 2nd set you can phase that reward out.

3. Keep your sessions short and upbeat. Make sure your dog is aroused enough before you start training or the poles will never have enough value and you won't get any speed through them. I used a bead counter with 10 beads and never did any more than 10 reps (mainly because I suck at math and it was easy to work out percentages this way, LOL) Even 10 reps is too much for some dogs.

4. Don't put the weaves away and take a break unless YOU are getting frustrated with what is happening. It is important that your dogs learn to work through any struggles they are having. If you are having reinforcement issues though, I probably would take a break until you get that worked out.

5. Mix up standing still and moving with your dog. After you throw the reward, run up to your dog as they reach it and have a game on the spot. Don't stand still and wait for your dog to bring it back all the time or you are rewarding the retrieve which is not the purpose of the exercise.

6. Video your sessions if you can. It is amazing what you see that you don't even realise what you are doing.

7. Don't lure, throw food/toy before dog is through poles etc. (another thing video is good for) With this method it is important that the dog will offer behaviour - sounds as if your dog is doing that though.

8. Know your dog before you decide if you are going to use NRM - for some dogs that can really shut them down. I only have 1 out of 3 at the moment that I would even consider using it with and even then I don't very often.

9. It is perfectly normal to hit a snag with this method I believe(or with any training) - happened to me and to several others I know who have trained it. Don't panic - just work through it with all the ideas everyone has given you here. Sometimes performance regression happens just before dog truly 'gets it' for some reason. My accuracy went from consistently 95% to one session at 30%, one session at 35%, two sessions at 50%, then went to 100% and never moved from that for the rest of the training.

10. Make yourself a 'checklist' to use when training : Is my dog aroused enough? Does my dog have enough value in the reward I am using? Are my training mechanics (throwing down the reward line and transporting back to start) correct ? Is my dog driving through poles with head down? Have I worked each step in different locations, etc, etc. Make sure you have each piece of the puzzle in place before increasing the difficulty for your dog.

Good Luck with it.

[ness]

Kelpiechick - the suggestion about putting it away is because its highly possible that its something about the way you are doing things which has caused the problem.

It may be a case of raising criteria to slowly and the dog thinking its doing what your asking.

Sometimes for whatever reason the penny just doesn't drop the first time. Giving the dog a break can enable them to push through it without the same hang up.

[megan_]

Are you doing recallers? I believe that part of recallers is building value for rewards. As KC suggests, maybe you need to do this first? I know it is very tempting to carry on without it, but if your dog doesn't LOOOOOVE a reward it isn't a reward at all.

I also agree with ness re: a break. I have learnt with my dogs that sometimes less is more. Also, it stops the incorrect behaviour becoming patterned.

[Tassie]

Great advice here! I would just add - have a look at Susan's article on how to create a motivating tug toy

I'd say it's worth working on that for a little while - so very much easier to work when the dog really values the reward.

[Elise+Hudson]

Thanks guys went back a little today and he did a heap better - think I have been doing too long a session, so I will make a note to really shorten them up in future.

I think I will just resign myself to the fact my dog won't quite do the 6 poles in 6 days thing :) I have (if the weather improves) my first trial next weekend, with 2 jumping runs so I think I will just focus on some handling and jump work for this week until the trial. He is getting his pole entry a lot better, so we might not get shunned out of the ring if he can at least hit his entry and just fault the poles.

I have just signed up for recallers, I think it will make a huge difference to our training.

[Kavik]

Now that you are in Recallers - have you checked out the Focus For Work section? Under FFW there is a page called A Makeover of Bad Habits which has a link to a video clip on the use of NRM (non reward markers). The video shows Susan working 2x2 weaves with Swagger, with the same problem as you are having at the moment. Might give you some ideas.