Karrine Posted February 23, 2013 Share Posted February 23, 2013 (edited) Hi :) I would firstly llike to say I am not a breeder - both my boys are castrated and I have no intention on being a breeder - this post is just curiosity. If there was a bitch with a lovely tempement - then a dog who was lacking with social skills and not such a great temperment and they bred - would this transfer to the pups temperment or is the puppy's tmperment based on their experiences since birth or both? How important is it that both the bitch and dog have a good temperment? Edited February 23, 2013 by Karrine Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dame Aussie Posted February 23, 2013 Share Posted February 23, 2013 I'm not a breeder but if I were and was breeding dogs for pets, temperament would probably be the first thing I'd look at, along with health. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greytmate Posted February 23, 2013 Share Posted February 23, 2013 Studies have been done, but none that will give you an exact answer. In my opinion it is 60/40 genetics to environment, and the temperament of the bitch is important environmentally as well as genetically. Half the genes come from each parent, and then there may be some genes that modify or mask other genes. Dogs can have a genetic predisposition to instinctively behave a certain way, and then training and socialisation can modify what you have to a certain extent and hopefully ingrain the habits we want. The reason we have different breeds of dog is that both their looks and behaviour have been selected for by breeding. This wouldn't be possible to do if the male exerted no genetic influence over the puppies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
espinay2 Posted February 23, 2013 Share Posted February 23, 2013 (edited) Not a simple question but the very simple answer is that it is a possibility and yes, correct and sound temperament is just as important for the dog as the bitch. Edited February 23, 2013 by espinay2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
huski Posted February 23, 2013 Share Posted February 23, 2013 I think a good and breed appropriate temperament is crucial for both dog and bitch. Who would want to breed a dog (of either sex) with an undesirable temperament? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Karrine Posted February 25, 2013 Author Share Posted February 25, 2013 thank you - like I said I am not a breeder nor know a breeder - just curious :) you have all basically said what I thought... I just always wondered :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Remarkabull Posted February 25, 2013 Share Posted February 25, 2013 My Dobe is DA. As a puppy he was scared of other dogs and as he matured it turned into aggression. His dam had 2 litters prior to this one and all pups have amazing temps, his litter was sired by a different dog (semen from overseas) and more than one pup from his litter has similar issues. The breeders will not be using the remainder of the semen they imported from that particular dog as they believe this is the cause of the issues in some of the pups, as do I. I am hopefully going to breed my first litter this year and temperament was a huge part of why I chose the sire I did for my bitch. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alpha bet Posted February 25, 2013 Share Posted February 25, 2013 One of the big problems with using semen (especially overseas) is that the breeder may have no real knowledge about the temperament of the dog... unless they know someone (overseas or interstate) who has a good understanding of what is acceptable or have a trust in the overseas breeder. I like to actually meet the dog and see him running around and get a feel for him and some of the offspring before including him in my program. Even visited a few dogs when I was in europe last year to meet some of the breeders and see their stock to get some good contacts for future breeding. Going back 20-30 I had seen litters from breeders who have used a dog who was 'a bit iffy' in temperament - sometimes just as the off chance it wouldn't be a problem. But sure enough (although not all pups) but there were always some offspring who showed these tendancies. Some stud dogs even gained a reputation of producing DA dogs. Hence why nowdays for me, I want to trust the temperament of the dog as much as the bitch. Can be difficult to assess sometimes especially when many of the males are kept in kennel environments or have had numerous homes thru importing etc and therefore not easy to understand whether the dog is solid and confident when they might have more limited life skills. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
corvus Posted February 25, 2013 Share Posted February 25, 2013 A dog can certainly learn to be dog aggressive, or human aggressive. Genes basically give a potential range of behaviour/temperament. The dog's environment and learning history say where within that range the dog sits. There's a diagram on a blog somewhere that shows this. If we have a continuum of shy and bold, for example, the genetic component gives a section that may be small or large on that continuum that represents the dog's potential. Nurture takes over from there, and that could be the difference between a dog that is outright dog aggressive and a dog that with low tolerance for certain antics from other dogs. Or a dog that is 'iffy' and a dog that is totally fine with other dogs. Also, puppy behaviour is a fairly poor indicator of future adult behaviour. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bisart Dobes Posted February 25, 2013 Share Posted February 25, 2013 My Dobe is DA. As a puppy he was scared of other dogs and as he matured it turned into aggression. His dam had 2 litters prior to this one and all pups have amazing temps, his litter was sired by a different dog (semen from overseas) and more than one pup from his litter has similar issues. The breeders will not be using the remainder of the semen they imported from that particular dog as they believe this is the cause of the issues in some of the pups, as do I. I am hopefully going to breed my first litter this year and temperament was a huge part of why I chose the sire I did for my bitch. Regarding your boy - have you checked Thyroid - the test needs to be run in the States I think with Jean Dodds ??? Erny on this forum will be able to give you all the details. I wish there was a tag feature on this forum I would tag her in !! But worth checking it out - here dogs have been pts due to temp issues / attacking people / dogs etc and it all could have been fixed if the breeder would just acknowledge the issue and stop breeding with the problem lines. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bisart Dobes Posted February 25, 2013 Share Posted February 25, 2013 To answer the op - yes temperament is of utmost importance - of both sire and dam. I believe the quality of the dams upbringing instills alot of behaviours in their offspring - this is their early training ground, then comes socialisation, training etc The studys in general seem to agree that there is a split of genetic and environmental - after 7 litters I can see genetics playing a larger role. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nekhbet Posted February 25, 2013 Share Posted February 25, 2013 Also, puppy behaviour is a fairly poor indicator of future adult behaviour. I hope not a lot of people base their puppy selling on traits they see and test whilst pups :laugh: I gave the old 'predict the pup' a go, so far I have a 100% success rate with predicting how they would turn out as adults. Some things you can't change or suppress. My bitch, 7 weeks old guarding the back door, fearless, no problems with surfaces, sleeps like a log in the car, solid prey drive and latches onto things like a vice ... still like that 2 years later. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bisart Dobes Posted February 25, 2013 Share Posted February 25, 2013 (edited) Also, puppy behaviour is a fairly poor indicator of future adult behaviour. I don't think this is the case at all. If (as a breeder) you are watching the puppies interact as they grow you can get pretty close to 100% accurate in assessing what the adult dog will be like - our last litter I literally told a young couple "NO that puppy is not the dog for you" - one headstrong little boy who needed to go into an experienced dobermann home and be worked - thats the home he went into and is a perfect fit. This couple got a gorgeous boy who is easy going, relaxed and loves everyone (just like them lol) - the perfect puppy for them and they have since seen the other boy compared to their boy and thanked me for saying no - they then realised what I meant. No I think - like Nekhbet - we can be pretty close to 100%. Its placing them correctly that finishes the job. Edited for spelling Edited February 25, 2013 by Bisart Dobes Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
huski Posted February 25, 2013 Share Posted February 25, 2013 A pups genetics are there from day one. You can see what's there genetically if you know what and how to look for it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vickie Posted February 25, 2013 Share Posted February 25, 2013 The best advice I ever got was that any pup in a litter has the potential to carry the best traits of each parent or the worst traits of each parent or a mix of both. It's a lucky dip if you breed 2 dogs who have different strengths & weaknesses and if you can't live with the possibility of the worst traits of each combined, then it's a bad choice for you. Obviously if both parents & grandparents have optimum & similar desirable traits, there should be very little variation & not much left to chance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
corvus Posted February 25, 2013 Share Posted February 25, 2013 Also, puppy behaviour is a fairly poor indicator of future adult behaviour. I don't think this is the case at all. Believe it or not, whatever suits you. If it were a good indicator I expect everyone who invests thousands of dollars in training dogs for jobs wouldn't still be looking for indicators of which dogs they should train. As they have been since they started doing it. It's not a problem that has been solved by lots of selective breeding, or lots of research. There are some aspects of personality that are more stable than others. Everyone knows broadly what they are looking for, but it's beyond the broad that is so elusive. But hey, don't take my word for it. There's a wealth of dog personality research out there and lots of it is free if you look on Google Scholar. A paper came out on a meta-analysis of dog personality research just this week. http://www.plosone.org/article/info%253Adoi%252F10.1371%252Fjournal.pone.0054907 Here's another of interest: http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0168159197000932 Another: http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0168159199000386 And another: http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/016815919490068X More:http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/016815918690095X You get the picture. I remember going through all of this when I started my project 3 years ago. I was like "Pfft, you can totally predict adult behaviour from puppy behaviour." :) The more you learn the less you realise you know. Better folks than you and I have been there and done that already. There is research on this from 50 years ago. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YOLO Posted February 25, 2013 Share Posted February 25, 2013 Temperament is definitely inherited, and subject to the complexities of genetics is inherited from both parents. Unlike people, dogs have been selectively bred for centuries. So just as their physical attributes can be radically different, so to can their mental attributes. That’s why with some breeds there are practically two distinct “strains” based on temperament. Those that have been bred for show or pets, vs those bred for security or worse. We one knew someone who randomly purchased a GSD to use as a guard dog for their car-yard. However he was a beautiful friendly dog and would simply lick any strangers that came to the fence. This is not to say there isn’t learnt behaviour. Most dogs can “learn” to do just about anything, so what you will finally see is the product of both. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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