Price Of Puppies

[WExtremeG]

Because irresponsible people breed random dogs without health testing or thought for anything. There is a lot of evidence for that. The chances of dogs being fabulous is sheer luck, what effort do they go to to ensure their dogs will be fabulous?

This^

[tarope]

How can some of you people claim that because people won't pay $1500 they wouldn't have looked after the dog anyway, there are plenty of papered dogs in pounds and rescue that people have paid $1500 for and still dump them.... you only have to look at the number of GSDs in rescue to know this.

How do you know that they have pedigree papers?

Are you serious, do you think only BYB GSDs are dumped in pounds etc. Have a look at these GSDs.

http://www.petrescue.com.au/listings/162375

http://www.petrescue.com.au/listings/159795

http://www.petrescue.com.au/listings/159560

http://www.petrescue.com.au/listings/157081

http://www.petrescue.com.au/listings/139787

http://www.petrescue.com.au/listings/135168

These are just a few to have found new homes but many others are not so lucky.

[WExtremeG]

I was referring to this-

there are plenty of papered dogs in pounds

- not a specific breed rescue.

[MonElite]

There are no guarantees with pure bred or BYB dogsor rescued dogs when it comes to health.

I can guarantee that my puppies will not be vWD affected as both parents have been tested for it.

I can also guarantee that they dont have the DCM gene, as both parents have been tested for that and are negative. Can I guarantee that they will never get Cardio? No. Because there might be more than one gene responsible for the desease. And we dont have tests for the other genes as yet.

And I can not guarantee that the puppy wont have cancer, that it wont have bloat, that will not have something else.

Why?? because there are no tests for those. Because many are not only genetic but also environmental.

Wobblers - so many dobes have it, there is no test, dogs get it mostly very late in life and its basically impossible to breed out.

Not to mention that environmental factors play a very big role in Wobblers.

[tdierikx]

Well said MonElite... many issues that come up with all sorts of dogs (pure or mutt) can have environmental factors playing a part in the development of the issue.

For example: A large breed well bred pedigreed dog may have sound hips all the way back in their lines, but due to owners letting their pup jump on and off furniture, taking it for long strenuous play or walk sessions as it is growing, etc - there is NO guarantee that the hips will stay perfect, is there? Sure it has a better chance than one that was BYB, but still...

No breeder can 100% guarantee against ALL possible issues arising with any dog they pass on to a new home... some issues can be identified and lessened by testing and breeding against, and thus can be assured that they should not develop, but not all...

T.

[corvus]

Because irresponsible people breed random dogs without health testing or thought for anything. There is a lot of evidence for that. The chances of dogs being fabulous is sheer luck, what effort do they go to to ensure their dogs will be fabulous?

Show it to me? Show me evidence that shows that anyone who is not an ANKC registered breeder that is breeding dogs is doing it in a completely random manner. I find that one in particular very hard to believe. They are at least picking the breeds they want to use most of the time. Show me the evidence that none of them health test. Or consider structure or temperament. Show me the evidence that all registered breeders are making better decisions.

I'm not trying to promote backyard or mixed breeding or put down registered breeders. I'm trying to encourage people to think about how they know what they think is so obvious that they can't believe other people can't seem to grasp it. If other people can't seem to grasp it, maybe it's not that black and white. Maybe those people aren't irresponsible or thoughtless idiots. Maybe they have had different experiences, different upbringing, and different beliefs and education. How many random bred dogs does someone have to buy before they run out of luck? How many pedigree dogs? Rhetorical questions.

[Christina]

Yeah thats always baffled me Christina ! Same with people who say they cant afford to get their pet desexed etc (but thats another topic!) ..

A night on the town, a taxi & a meal costs more than getting your dog desexed.

Some people spend more on a pair of shoes than desexing would cost.

I don't understand the moaning over a one off expense

[freundhund]

I am now thinking of putting the price up on my puppies to the following scenario that has just happened, accept I told the person I wasn't prepared to sell them a puppy. This is how the conversation on my mobile went.

Phone rings 10:30pm I was in bed trying to sleep. (Not going to happen now until I unwind again)

Caller: "Black"

Me: "Pardon"

Caller: "Black"

Me: "Pardon" (gathering thoughts as I try to wake up)

Caller: "I want a black one"

Me: "Oh, umm you want to buy a GSD puppy?".

Caller: "I want a black one"

Me: "Okay, so you want to buy a black GSD puppy?

Caller: " Yes, I want a black one" (talk about a one track mind)

Me: "I have black and gold"

Caller: "I want a black one"

Me: "Sorry, you need to talk to someone that breeds working line GSDs"

The call eventually end with the caller telling me that a well know place that sells guard dogs has lots of blacks and I don't know what I am talking about!!!

So now to unwind and get back to sleep.

And people want to know why our puppies are so expensive, I did forget to mention that whether I like it or not some prospective buyers expect to be able to contact me 24/7. I am not expected to sleep.

[chuckandsteve]

I'm a rescue person so know very little about breeding.

Previous threads had lead me to believe that all the cost of buying the pup went to the actual cost of raising the pup (vet checks food etc) no spare cash for breeder. More expensive puppys were breeds of low litter numbers and harder to birth naturally.

This thread seems to imply it goes to that as well as the breeders time, pain and suffering. Which I have no problem with. But if someone is buying from you thinking that they are just paying your costs and not your wage when they are in fact paying your wage of course they are going to think the pup is over priced because it is.

So if breeders are earning a wage which I think 99% would have no problem with why not just say that? Is it simply to make people think if they breed they will make no money?

People pay more for a good photographer/mechanic/florist etc than a bad one so I would think the same would hold true for breeders. But you always get those that want basement prices.

Not trying to have a go at anyone just an honest question

[angelsun]

It's a politically correct statement for most breeders to make, to say that they 'don't make money' or 'never profit' from the litters they breed. I'm talking GOOD and ethical breeders that do health testing and show dogs to titles etc.....but it's not quite true in some cases and for some reason, if we DO admit to being in the black, we are targetted as a bad breeder, a puppy mill or worse.

It is possible to profit from breeding, and still be up front, ethical and honest. It's possible to cover your costs of breeding a litter and come out front.

What many breeders add in, and it makes it look the 'long suffering' sort of thing, is the costs PRIOR to breeding...buying the dog in the first place. Raising that dog and costing in vet bills for shots or check ups, food bills and other items.....showing for example...these are costs that many breeders claim they are trying to cover with their prices.

If this was the case the current litter of pups that I hope to see arrive early April will be, if there is an average of 8 and they all live, have to be sold for no less than $4000 each.

Well we know this is stupid and won't happen!

I won't cover the costs of the bitch in whelp up to this stage..she was imported (flight/quarantine costs) Was frozen inseminated twice without a litter (cost of surgery, stud fee, transport of semen etc) Shown to her championship and on and on....

I don't whinge about it...because it's my choice what I do with her...not hers....I breed to bring forward another generation of my breed. The rest of the litter is a bonus for those that wish a pet to love.

Why charge what I do? Well I"m substantially cheaper than most in my breed in the USA.....and lower than many here in Australia, because the price I put on pups isn't about dollars and cents...it's about attempting to ensure the quality of life for my puppy. Saying that, I've given away (yes, that means for free) plenty of dogs in the past. No strings...some people just need a pet worse than I need another dog. My last litter in Canada....out of 7 pups...I sold two....starting other breeders off with good dogs, handing a dog to a friend to keep and show with the thought that maybe I'd use it later in the program....oh wait....three of those fell into that pile.

Free to a good home isn't a death sentance or a reason for someone to pitch a dog out at the first chance...for the people that do that sort of thing, they will do it whether they get the dog for nothing or pay a hefty price...it's their nature.

My cost helps weed out a few that want to buy a 'neat looking' dog for the kids on an impulse....as mentioned, most folks don't keep $1500 kicking around at any point in time. Yes, it works.

Do I make profit on litters...sometimes....if I"m really lucky I'll clear a bit, and usually that means the dogs get something to make lives easier...new fencing, new beds, new crates etc. I do try to take a hundred bucks out and buy myself a treat....a pair of shoes, a new pair of earrings etc....I don't feel guilty about that nor have I tried to hide it from others inspite of how we breeders can be trashed if we actually 'make money'.

A good business person, will potentially profit from breeding, but then we have mother nature that kicks in and all hell breaks loose...remember all those litters that failed? We might come ahead with one litter....but if we don't breed every year....and we have some disasters which any of us that have been in this game long enough, usually have.....we realize that a profit, isn't something we take lightly.....because so many losses occur in this game when you try to do it right.

I'll take my profit on a litter thanks...and be grateful...because it might not come again for a while. I charge what I charge and if it's too much, well....there is always another pup out there in your budget range and I won't take it personally.

Many have said that the purchase price of the dog is the least you'll have to pay over the long haul..perhaps....but NO ONE can force anyone to pay anything for a pup if they don't want to.....you see a price we ask...is only as good as the person willing to pay it.

[BoxerB]

I am now thinking of putting the price up on my puppies to the following scenario that has just happened, accept I told the person I wasn't prepared to sell them a puppy. This is how the conversation on my mobile went.

Phone rings 10:30pm I was in bed trying to sleep. (Not going to happen now until I unwind again)

Caller: "Black"

Me: "Pardon"

Caller: "Black"

Me: "Pardon" (gathering thoughts as I try to wake up)

Caller: "I want a black one"

Me: "Oh, umm you want to buy a GSD puppy?".

Caller: "I want a black one"

Me: "Okay, so you want to buy a black GSD puppy?

Caller: " Yes, I want a black one" (talk about a one track mind)

Me: "I have black and gold"

Caller: "I want a black one"

Me: "Sorry, you need to talk to someone that breeds working line GSDs"

The call eventually end with the caller telling me that a well know place that sells guard dogs has lots of blacks and I don't know what I am talking about!!!

So now to unwind and get back to sleep.

And people want to know why our puppies are so expensive, I did forget to mention that whether I like it or not some prospective buyers expect to be able to contact me 24/7. I am not expected to sleep.

Sorry, but i 100% don't agree with this, in that this kind of scenario means you factor that into your price.

I would be extremely upset that if part of the money i am paying for a puppy goes towards what i would call poor business choices.

Sorry if thats harsh, but rather than slugging prospective owners for this, why not get a pre-paid phone which you turn off after 7pm and goes to message bank? Or even list a mobile and turn that off? Many ways around what you have described instead of "I'm inconvenienced, so I'm going to up my prices".

[freundhund]

I actually meant the comment as a joke, possibly when I wrote it late at night after being woken up, by what I perceived as a very strange call my remarks didn't come across as as humerous as I meant.

What I was trying to express was that trying to be an ethical breeder and help and assist the wonderful families that choose to buy a puppy, in which I have invested a lot of time, effort, energy and money into I am happy to help.

The person that rang and had the conversation last night was actually quite rude and belligerant, when I didn't have a puppy the colour he wanted and basically named an unacceptable to me company!!!

[BoxerB]

It's a politically correct statement for most breeders to make, to say that they 'don't make money' or 'never profit' from the litters they breed. I'm talking GOOD and ethical breeders that do health testing and show dogs to titles etc.....but it's not quite true in some cases and for some reason, if we DO admit to being in the black, we are targetted as a bad breeder, a puppy mill or worse.

It is possible to profit from breeding, and still be up front, ethical and honest. It's possible to cover your costs of breeding a litter and come out front.

What many breeders add in, and it makes it look the 'long suffering' sort of thing, is the costs PRIOR to breeding...buying the dog in the first place. Raising that dog and costing in vet bills for shots or check ups, food bills and other items.....showing for example...these are costs that many breeders claim they are trying to cover with their prices.

If this was the case the current litter of pups that I hope to see arrive early April will be, if there is an average of 8 and they all live, have to be sold for no less than $4000 each.

Well we know this is stupid and won't happen!

I won't cover the costs of the bitch in whelp up to this stage..she was imported (flight/quarantine costs) Was frozen inseminated twice without a litter (cost of surgery, stud fee, transport of semen etc) Shown to her championship and on and on....

I don't whinge about it...because it's my choice what I do with her...not hers....I breed to bring forward another generation of my breed. The rest of the litter is a bonus for those that wish a pet to love.

Why charge what I do? Well I"m substantially cheaper than most in my breed in the USA.....and lower than many here in Australia, because the price I put on pups isn't about dollars and cents...it's about attempting to ensure the quality of life for my puppy. Saying that, I've given away (yes, that means for free) plenty of dogs in the past. No strings...some people just need a pet worse than I need another dog. My last litter in Canada....out of 7 pups...I sold two....starting other breeders off with good dogs, handing a dog to a friend to keep and show with the thought that maybe I'd use it later in the program....oh wait....three of those fell into that pile.

Free to a good home isn't a death sentance or a reason for someone to pitch a dog out at the first chance...for the people that do that sort of thing, they will do it whether they get the dog for nothing or pay a hefty price...it's their nature.

My cost helps weed out a few that want to buy a 'neat looking' dog for the kids on an impulse....as mentioned, most folks don't keep $1500 kicking around at any point in time. Yes, it works.

Do I make profit on litters...sometimes....if I"m really lucky I'll clear a bit, and usually that means the dogs get something to make lives easier...new fencing, new beds, new crates etc. I do try to take a hundred bucks out and buy myself a treat....a pair of shoes, a new pair of earrings etc....I don't feel guilty about that nor have I tried to hide it from others inspite of how we breeders can be trashed if we actually 'make money'.

A good business person, will potentially profit from breeding, but then we have mother nature that kicks in and all hell breaks loose...remember all those litters that failed? We might come ahead with one litter....but if we don't breed every year....and we have some disasters which any of us that have been in this game long enough, usually have.....we realize that a profit, isn't something we take lightly.....because so many losses occur in this game when you try to do it right.

I'll take my profit on a litter thanks...and be grateful...because it might not come again for a while. I charge what I charge and if it's too much, well....there is always another pup out there in your budget range and I won't take it personally.

Many have said that the purchase price of the dog is the least you'll have to pay over the long haul..perhaps....but NO ONE can force anyone to pay anything for a pup if they don't want to.....you see a price we ask...is only as good as the person willing to pay it.

Best post on this topic by far!!!!!!!!!!!!

[mita]

Guess what? Sometimes completely irresponsible people sell puppies for next to nothing and they turn out to be fabulous dogs. Sorry if that offends you on some level, but it happens. In contrast, my family has a discounted purebreed from a registered breeder that is riddled with health problems and has appalling structure. Go figure. And people wonder why the public isn't convinced it's worth the money to buy from a registered breeder...

And sometimes totally responsible registered breeders adopt their dogs for next to nothing, or nothing, because a good home for the rest of its life, is what they want. (I had to make such people take a good price.)

I've had 4 purebred dogs that've come to me like that. They turned out to be fabulous dogs with exceptional good temperament & health. Not that it surprised me. I'd done my homework well & figured out where my chances of finding an all-round quality dog would lie.

Given all the variables associated with breeding, raising & ongoing development of dogs... it's a case of risk management. Where is risk likely to be less? And in buying a pet dog, socialisation of dogs/puppies by the breeder is into the mix.

Rigorous research from UQ showed that good socialisation & more control of litters is more likely found with registered breeders. Note.... that doesn't mean all, it means a statistically significant number.

So that sets the direction for less risk... registered breeders. Next to test out the reality with actual registered breeders, by looking for the attitudes and practices which would reduce risk. Note... even in the best of circumstances, breeders don't totally control nature. For heavens sake, medical science doesn't totally control nature for humans.

Given all this, when it comes to getting a puppy, I'll go for a purebred. And, based on my respect for the breeders who put in the hard yards to reduce risk, I'm prepared to pay.

Here's an example of not yet 7 week old tibbie puppies being raised by their breeder. So I'm not pushing any Australian breeder in particular, these are in Denmark. Northern Europe is great for producing quality in this breed. Says a lot, tho', for quality found here in Australia, that the Scandanavian breeder who won at the last Crufts, had imported an Australian dog for her line. I now own one of her dogs... & she's fabulous, in looks, temperament & general health.

Edited March 5, 2013 by mita

[BoxerB]

I actually meant the comment as a joke, possibly when I wrote it late at night after being woken up, by what I perceived as a very strange call my remarks didn't come across as as humerous as I meant.

What I was trying to express was that trying to be an ethical breeder and help and assist the wonderful families that choose to buy a puppy, in which I have invested a lot of time, effort, energy and money into I am happy to help.

The person that rang and had the conversation last night was actually quite rude and belligerant, when I didn't have a puppy the colour he wanted and basically named an unacceptable to me company!!!

sorry - I'm blaming Tuesday morning syndrome :)

I completely agree re your view on that customer. To be honest i would have hung up after he just said black!

Either learn to have a proper conversation or go elsehwere :)

[cowanbree]

I'm a rescue person so know very little about breeding.

Previous threads had lead me to believe that all the cost of buying the pup went to the actual cost of raising the pup (vet checks food etc) no spare cash for breeder. More expensive puppys were breeds of low litter numbers and harder to birth naturally.

This thread seems to imply it goes to that as well as the breeders time, pain and suffering. Which I have no problem with. But if someone is buying from you thinking that they are just paying your costs and not your wage when they are in fact paying your wage of course they are going to think the pup is over priced because it is.

So if breeders are earning a wage which I think 99% would have no problem with why not just say that? Is it simply to make people think if they breed they will make no money?

People pay more for a good photographer/mechanic/florist etc than a bad one so I would think the same would hold true for breeders. But you always get those that want basement prices.

Not trying to have a go at anyone just an honest question

So are you saying a breeders time is not worth anything? What else can you buy where you don't have to pay for labour?

I personally don't really care what the price is. I am more concerned about the quality of the litter in terms of health/temperament and the intention of the breeder in breeding that litter. I don't support breeders who churn out litter after litter simply for money.

As a breeder I have bred the odd litter where I may have made a modest profit over direct costs but that simply goes towards the next litter that is a disaster with huge vets bills or the new import I need that can improve the breed

[mita]

Here's a registered breeder working hard :) on one of the critical factors that goes into producing dogs with good temperaments & good adjustment for living with humans & their environment.

Happy to pay for this work :) , among other things. This particular bit is tough.... but, gee, someone has to do it. :)

http://www.kennel-sommerlyst.dk/images/familiesofa.jpg

Research shows that socialisation is critical for dogs if they are to live close & harmoniously with humans. Also a behaviour like aggression, has one link with degree of socialisation of the mother dog. It's not just a case of socialising puppies in their first weeks .... but also of ongoing socialisation of parent dogs. And, statistically, registered breeders have been found more likely to do this.

(Pic is one of the leading Danish breeders.)

Edited March 5, 2013 by mita

[espinay2]

Yeah thats always baffled me Christina ! Same with people who say they cant afford to get their pet desexed etc (but thats another topic!) ..

A night on the town, a taxi & a meal costs more than getting your dog desexed.

Some people spend more on a pair of shoes than desexing would cost.

I don't understand the moaning over a one off expense

In the end it is not about cost, but about personal priorities.

On this forum I know many of us will find it hard to accept that some people WILL place a bigger priority on a new pair of fashion statement shoes than getting a dog desexed.

I know I don't 'get' it, but then there are those that don't understand me sinking tens of thousands of dollars into 'just some dogs' either (and I have a hard time understanding my OH spending similar on radio controlled aircraft :laugh: )

The issue for breeders is choosing as owners those people who will place a high enough priority on their dogs that all its mental and physical needs will be met (and then some if possible).

How much is charged is really arbitrary (it certainly is in my breed where costs can vary by several thousand based simply on what the breeder wants to charge) and frankly, if anyone actually added up ALL the costs (not just direct ones - no business prices its products only on direct manufacturing costs) I think most dogs would end up being a 'bargain' in these terms. (It is perhaps a GOOD thing that dog breeding is viewed as a hobby as if all the actual costs needed to be taken into account when charging for puppies, it could in many cases IMO be very scary!). Making a profit on direct costs for one litter is fair enough - but that is not really a true profit any more than your gross pay is what you take home at the end of the day.

So back to where we started - it is all about priorities. If you want a particular thing bad enough, you will put your energy and money into getting or doing it. If you don't you go elsewhere and no amount of complaining about the price is going to make a d#$% bit of difference.

[chuckandsteve]

I'm a rescue person so know very little about breeding.

Previous threads had lead me to believe that all the cost of buying the pup went to the actual cost of raising the pup (vet checks food etc) no spare cash for breeder. More expensive puppys were breeds of low litter numbers and harder to birth naturally.

This thread seems to imply it goes to that as well as the breeders time, pain and suffering. Which I have no problem with. But if someone is buying from you thinking that they are just paying your costs and not your wage when they are in fact paying your wage of course they are going to think the pup is over priced because it is.

So if breeders are earning a wage which I think 99% would have no problem with why not just say that? Is it simply to make people think if they breed they will make no money?

People pay more for a good photographer/mechanic/florist etc than a bad one so I would think the same would hold true for breeders. But you always get those that want basement prices.

Not trying to have a go at anyone just an honest question

So are you saying a breeders time is not worth anything? What else can you buy where you don't have to pay for labour?

I personally don't really care what the price is. I am more concerned about the quality of the litter in terms of health/temperament and the intention of the breeder in breeding that litter. I don't support breeders who churn out litter after litter simply for money.

As a breeder I have bred the odd litter where I may have made a modest profit over direct costs but that simply goes towards the next litter that is a disaster with huge vets bills or the new import I need that can improve the breed

Im not saying that, but to me getting paid for time is making a profit. I think most people define profit as less expenses whats left is the profit for your time.

As i said no problem with a breeder making a profit but if u define it differently to everyone else they will think you are overpriced because you are talking in totally different terms. If breeders factored in x amount a week for their time and told people that i think more people could see why pups are expensive and would be fine with it.

People realise money makes the workd go around, but if you sell a pup for 2000 and say its for food and vaccs and vet visit, it doesnt add up. If you say its for time spent raising the pup so you have a nice even tempered pet i think people are more likely to pay IMO

[MonElite]

Here is one for you from today.

Someone told me that they won't be buying a dog from me because I wouldn't let them come and look at the puppies right now, that I made them feel uncomfortable about not allowing them to come, and it all just doesn't seem right.

When they asked about visiting, I said that the can visit when puppies are 6-7 weeks old.

And as to adults, they can see the father at a show, as he is being shown on weekend and doesn't belong to me. But I wont be going to the show as its in Wollongong.

My puppies are less than 2 weeks old.

Yes I will let the masses of "tyre kickers" come and upset my feeding bitch with tiny puppies. Not!

Edited March 5, 2013 by MonElite