Price Of Puppies

[_PL_]

Her girl was desexed and Lasareina has stuck around despite some harsh comments. I'd take that as a win.

And yep I read that thread and forced myself not to hit her over the head with my own opinions on breeding more staffy crosses. The bargain hunting comment....well now it just looks like people are taking the opportunity to pick holes in her posts. Not that it's my favourite thing to hear either but it's said with some context and without the experience some posters on here may have.

[Salukifan]

The "bargain" comment was an attempt at a lighthearted way of highlighting my upbringing - I was not trying to say that I equate my much loved pups with a bargain.

I'm not sure where you got the impression that "there's no way I would ever buy an ANKC registered pup" - that's not what I was saying and it is not what I think... down the track I would actually love to become more involved in the dog world, learn more and maybe eventually moved down the track of becoming a registered breeder.

I wasn't really meaning to debate the merits of whether or not everyone should but a registered pedigree puppy - just saying that if people choose NOT to, it doesn't automatically mean they will be any less of an attentive and caring owner. Just as someone who does buy a pedigree puppy isn't automatically going to be a great owner.

The point I was trying to make is that people should be judged on their actions, not from some overarching generalisation.

I think I read somewhere that registered pedigree breeders account for only about 10 - 20% of Australian dogs. Does this mean that the other 80 - 90% of dog owners can be automatically catergorised as ""low-cost" owners who won't care for their dog properly and will dump it at the first sign of trouble."??

I probably have the exact percentage wrong but you can see what I mean.

I tried very hard NOT to offend anyone, as I know the majority of people on this forum are either registered breeders or own registered dogs. I really don't see how I was disrespectful. I was simply questioning this one assumption. Forums are designed for discussion and communication, so i thought that would be allowed

And it is. But I'm trying to explain why price alone is no way to determine what pup you buy and why suggesting that pedigreed dogs are overpriced isn't going to win friends and influence people here. You have the percentage about right by the way.

People don't necessarily buy the "bargain" car that's a rebirthed car pieced together with bits of other cars and that comes with no warranty do they? Do they consider that's a better deal than one that comes with a REVS check and a warranty? Or do they value provenance and reliability when it comes to motor vehicles.

To be quite frank a lot of people think a dog is a dog and they don't understand issues like health checks, breed standards and temperament. They probably do more research on what brand of TV to buy.

But it doesn't make it right. in the old days when the bitch down the street had pups to the dog from the next street and the pups were given away, people knew what they were getting. Now a lot of people are mating any old dog to any old bitch and selling the pupsfor money to the first person who pays and its the pups and the buyers that pay the price for that kind of breeding. You cut corners withe the breeding stock, the health testing an the litter raising and of course you can sell the pups cheaper and make more money. But from where I sit, that doesn't make it right.

I do judge people by their actions and I see you mean well. But if your end aim is to become a responsible registered breeder then that process starts now. Your first challenge will be to convince existing registered breeders to sell you a Main Register pup. Your OH refusing point blank to pay the asking price for such a pup or attempting to haggle won't endear you to such breeders.

Edited September 4, 2013 by Haredown Whippets

[littleduck]

It would never even cross my mind to quibble over the price of a pure bred Pup. I am a strong believer in "You Get what you pay for" If you put in your research, and find a breeder who will raise your pup to the very best of their ability then that healthy pup is worth the price the breeder asks.

I have a pair of Ragdoll cats here, they were the first pedigreed animal I had from babyhood ( our Dalmatian was a rescue from the RSPCA when he was 4, so I don't know who his breeder is) and I have an ongoing relationship with the breeder of my cats, the cats are absolutely breed typical, and I am looking forward to taking care of our new Dally pup in a few months and having the same ongoing relationship with his breeder.

[KJJ]

I still don't quite understand why 'price' seems to be taboo with some breeders? I'm quite happy to pay a premium for a puppy who is the result of a caring intelligent breeding program - but I would like to know what I am paying for and what a 'standard' price might be. If a breeder asked for more than other breeders but there were justifiable reasons for that, then I would be happy to pay that - I just would like to know, if that makes sense?

[Lasareina]

The bargain comment was meant as a lighthearted comment on my upbringing - not on my attitude to the purchase of my puppies. I simply meant that I have been brought up in a manner that spending that much money is a big deal. I should have know this would not have been read in the way I meant it.

Rebanne, I think you are just being nasty now.

We were considering breeding our much loved pets, together, years down the track because we thought they are excellent family pets which would produce beautiful puppies.

Then I joined this forum, read a lot of information, learnt a lot, and began to question this intention.

I have now come to understand, and accept why people on this forum are against unregistered breeding.

Juno is now desexed. To suggest that I would go down the street and select a random dog to replace Juno with is ridiculous and insulting.

The whole point of my original post in this thread has been completely ignored.

Did any of you actually read where I tried to clarify some of the points other users objected to??

[Salukifan]

I still don't quite understand why 'price' seems to be taboo with some breeders? I'm quite happy to pay a premium for a puppy who is the result of a caring intelligent breeding program - but I would like to know what I am paying for and what a 'standard' price might be. If a breeder asked for more than other breeders but there were justifiable reasons for that, then I would be happy to pay that - I just would like to know, if that makes sense?

Yep, it does to me and it was one of the reasons why I suggested the question be included in the standard sets in the Dogs 101 thread. If the usual asking price is going to mean you'll need oxygen then the sooner you know the better.

[Lasareina]

Haredown Whippets - if we did ever go down the path of looking into becoming a breeder, it would be well into the future. When we were financially secure. Not after having just taken on our first mortgage, and earning about 45k a year. Again, I wasn't suggesting that pedigree dogs are overpriced.. I was suggesting that in our financial position it wasn't a viable option. I thought I made that clear with my very first statement.

[Salukifan]

Haredown Whippets - if we did ever go down the path of looking into becoming a breeder, it would be well into the future. When we were financially secure. Not after having just taken on our first mortgage, and earning about 45k a year. Again, I wasn't suggesting that pedigree dogs are overpriced.. I was suggesting that in our financial position it wasn't a viable option. I thought I made that clear with my very first statement.

Lasaeina, I kid you not, breeders do their homework on buyers just like they do on matings. Five years from now, every post you've made will be here for the reading and believe me when I say that some breeders will probably read the lot.

I wish I had thought about getting into dogs when I was far far younger. Not so far into the future, you may consider adding your first ANKC registered Stafford into your family and venturing into the show ring. For most people, that's years in advance of any breeding and you'll serve an "apprenticeship" with that dog that may give you access to even better ones. I doubt you'll breed with that first dog - a lot of people don't. It's the "gateway" dog into the world of your chosen breed and quite a few folk soon realise they need a better quality dog to be the foundation of their kennel. You are in such a great position to soak up information, learn from experienced breeders and learn about the type of Stafford you want to breed. You can start that process now.

You don't have to be rich to be in the purebred dog world. All you have to be is interested... a lot of folk start small. It's a hobby for most of us. I would seriously suggest you think about attending the next breed specialty in your area... never too early to start.

The biggest difference between the dogs you have now and a dog you could show would have been its purchase price. All pets cost the same to care for. And most show dogs are pets, first and foremost

Edited September 4, 2013 by Haredown Whippets

[Lasareina]

I would actually love to go see a dog show... I wouldn't even know where to go.

Some of the responses on here have made me feel quite upset and depressed however and if that is a demonstration of what I could expect if I did ever dare to try and venture into the world of shows etc then maybe its better if I just leave well enough alone and go back to being an ignorant but happy "average" pet owner without trying to "improve" myself.

I am not referring to you HW - I understand you are trying to help.

[Salukifan]

I would actually love to go see a dog show... I wouldn't even know where to go.

Some of the responses on here have made me feel quite upset and depressed however and if that is a demonstration of what I could expect if I did ever dare to try and venture into the world of shows etc then maybe its better if I just leave well enough alone and go back to being an ignorant but happy "average" pet owner without trying to "improve" myself.

I am not referring to you HW - I understand you are trying to help.

Well, I will say that its not a place for shrinking violets and we all have weekends where you come home and hide all the sharp objects :laugh: Losing is not fun and competition doesn't make some folk play nice. No different to any sort of competition though.

BUT, there is no greater joy for a lot of dog owners and breed fanciers than spending time with fellow dog tragics. Seeing great dogs, talking dogs, learning about dogs, and making life long friends.

And if you are passionate about a breed, it can be a hell of a lot of fun, along with the disappointments.

People will also tell you that breeding can bring you the greatest of happiness and the worst of tragedy. Consider showing a taste of that.

Are you in Brisbane? You just missed the Ekka but I'm sure a Brisbanite can tell you when the next shows are on!

[KJJ]

I would actually love to go see a dog show... I wouldn't even know where to go.

Some of the responses on here have made me feel quite upset and depressed however and if that is a demonstration of what I could expect if I did ever dare to try and venture into the world of shows etc then maybe its better if I just leave well enough alone and go back to being an ignorant but happy "average" pet owner without trying to "improve" myself.

I am not referring to you HW - I understand you are trying to help.

try not to let it bother you - I find that often things online come across much harsher than they would in person (as you are dealing with just text, you are missing all the other things that come with communication in person, like nuance, expression, inflection etc). From an outsiders perspective I would say that you also got a hell of a lot of supportive understanding comments, maybe try to think of them and not dwell on the 'straight to the point' ones? Either way - I'm glad to hear that your girl came though the surgery ok and kudos to you (and your OH) for thinking about the welfare of your dogs and making sensible decisions

[Lasareina]

KJJ - yes there are some lovely supportive people on here... it is the only reason I am still frequenting the forum. Juno has slept ever since we got home from the vets today... I hope she is ok, She certainly looked very miserable when I collected her

[kelpiecuddles]

I understand where you are coming from Lasareina. My older dog Sascha cost me $20 from a farm on the side of a road I was working on at the time! I started out in the same place as you and I absolutely love my kelpie, she's been a fantastic dog and I don't regret buying her for a second. She is 9 years old now and my basset is 5. It was actually my husband that led to me getting our basset, he'd always wanted one so i bought her for him as a wedding present! She has been my first foray in to the world of pedigree dogs and it got us totally hooked. I'm now waiting patiently for our second basset who is a 4 year old girl who I will be showing. She has cost me nothing. More recently just in the process of chatting and getting to know breeders I was actually offered a basset puppy for free! The breeder wanted him to go to a show home but unfortunately the timing is no good for us so I declined.

Josie cost me around $1300, my next girl will cost me nothing and i could have got this puppy for nothing. I guess the point I am making is that if you really want to get in to showing and you become active and get a name for yourself as someone who is keen you won't always pay the same price as others because all breeders want to see their pups in good homes and many would prefer to give away a pup with potential to a show home than sell it to a pet home. In the registered dog breeding world it's not as simple as one price fits all, breeders costs are much higher because they are paying for health testing, vaccinations, worming and some even desex non-show dogs plus good quality food. Some charge the same for pet and show animals, some charge nothing to the right person. Ultimately while it may not seem that way at first you do get great value for money by buying a puppy from a reputable registered breeder.

[Sandra777]

The really hilarious part of your posts Lasareina? - you paid $1000 for a pair of unregistered pups of unknown heritage who could have been very closely related for all you knew.

With Staffords, for $200-$300 more per pup you could have had registered pedigree pups from known impeccable genetic backgrounds.

Good Staffords don't cost very much more than BYB crossbred ones - people need to do a LOT more research before they start barganin hunting!

[seld]

The thing about asking the price is that it is a practicality you need to know as a buyer. Asking the price is necessary to know what you are in for and Id be more concerned that anyone who didn't ask could be going into it naively. Its not like the dogs we are talking about are easily slotted into most peoples weekly budgets, and a lot of people would need to know how much they would need to have aside well in advance.

[OSoSwift]

I have no issue with people asking price. They need to know if the puppy is something they can afford or not.

One person didn't ask me staright up, I forgot to tell which I normally do, then they asked, asked why it was different to their last dog of the same breed. I answered, they said fine, off we went :)

[Angeluca]

Yeah, that’s the problem. If you set out to do things properly and breed healthy happy pups that carry only the best attributes of your breed, you will never make money, and yet people will bitch about the cost. That’s why it seems most responsible breeders really only do it for the love of the breed.

Of course if you’re happy to over-breed your substandard bitch with an equally substandard male, and forgo the niceties of hip & elbow scoring, vet services, and raise the pups in some chook-pen out the back, then I guess there may be a few dollars to be made.

Unfortunately low-cost pups appeal to “low-cost” owners who won’t care for their dog properly and will dump it at the first sign of trouble.

Personally I would rather see a few more dogs coming from quality breeders at a HIGHER price.

This is the point that I was saying I had an objection to.

Before I say anything I want to make clear that I have NO PROBLEM with breeders asking whatever price they want for their puppies. They have put in the time, effort and money and it is absolutely up to them what price they want to ask in return.

...

I in no way mean to diminish what breeders are trying to achieve, or make a judgement about whether you should or shouldn't buy from a registered breeder... I just think that some generalisations are a tad unfair.

Please read the parts of my post where I clearly state that I am not saying that registered breeders are charging too much, and where I clearly say I am not trying to question the importance of what the breeders ares trying to achieve or argue whether people should or shouldn't buy from registered breeders.

Both my staffies were bought from local families with litters from their family dogs. They were $500 each. There is NO WAY I could have convinced my partner that it is necessary or desirable to spend $1500+ each on the pups. To be honest, I would have had difficulty swallowing that myself ... In my family bargain hunting is like a religion :laugh: . We had just bought our first home, and are both in fairly low paying jobs.

If you decide down the track that you want to breed pedigreed SBTs, my guess is that your thoughts will change. You'll see spending that money as an investment in a dog that's a good representative of the breed standard and you'll pay it to get a pup from health tested parents that's been whelped and raised to the best of the breeder's ability. You'll look at pups tht most people think are cuteness overload with eyes that see conformation faults that may lead to ongoing soundness problems and you'll want none of that.

And when the time comes for you to sell your thoughtfully bred pups, you'll put a price on them that reflects the time and effort you went into selecting your breeding stock, whelping the litter and raising it with optimum care.

Sometimes, just sometimes with dogs you do get what you paid for - or didn't in the case of dogs with completely preventable health issues.

Good breeders don't need to hold a gun to anyone's head to get the prices they charge. I don't see anyone suggesting that those who don't want to pay that sort of money should have to either. But consider for a moment what's paying for the forum so many people turn to for advice on raising their pups. Seems to me that some people aren't fully aware of how much registered dog breeders contribute to providing the informaton so many people gain here. "I'd never pay that for a pup" you say. But here you are, benefiting from those who do. Extolling the benefits of bargain hunting doesn't sit so well with me in that regard.

I'm not suggesting that all dog owners shouldn't be here and share in the wealth of knowledge this forum provides. But perhaps a little more respect for the aims of this forum and what it seeks to promote is called for. If your view is that there's no way in future you'd buy an ANKC registered pup (or a rescue), don't expect that to sit well with everyone. For some of us, cost is not the issue that drives what we buy and IMO the more you learn about dogs, the more you'll value what a responsibly bred pedigreed pup means.

FYI, I've never paid more than $800 for a pedigreed pup. The last one was free. :)

The "bargain" comment was an attempt at a lighthearted way of highlighting my upbringing - I was not trying to say that I equate my much loved pups with a bargain.

I'm not sure where you got the impression that "there's no way I would ever buy an ANKC registered pup" - that's not what I was saying and it is not what I think... down the track I would actually love to become more involved in the dog world, learn more and maybe eventually moved down the track of becoming a registered breeder.

I wasn't really meaning to debate the merits of whether or not everyone should but a registered pedigree puppy - just saying that if people choose NOT to, it doesn't automatically mean they will be any less of an attentive and caring owner. Just as someone who does buy a pedigree puppy isn't automatically going to be a great owner.

The point I was trying to make is that people should be judged on their actions, not from some overarching generalisation.

I think I read somewhere that registered pedigree breeders account for only about 10 - 20% of Australian dogs. Does this mean that the other 80 - 90% of dog owners can be automatically catergorised as "“low-cost” owners who won’t care for their dog properly and will dump it at the first sign of trouble."??

I probably have the exact percentage wrong but you can see what I mean.

I tried very hard NOT to offend anyone, as I know the majority of people on this forum are either registered breeders or own registered dogs. I really don't see how I was disrespectful. I was simply questioning this one assumption. Forums are designed for discussion and communication, so i thought that would be allowed

That conformation you say isn't important is very important an any dog.

Over 90% of dogs us breeders breed are for the pet home, but we want them to have the best possible dog they can get, equally as important to a pup retained for breeding and or showing.

A dog's conformation helps stabilize a dog running full pelt around a yard/beach. It serves the dog in old age when his bones and joint are getting old his structure and conformation may make it that bit more bearable.

As a byb what advice do you sell your puppies with what help that puppy settle in their new home, will you offer the home when they are having a few issues more importantly what are you doing to do when the pup you sell is very very sick with something you could have prevented, and that family is loosing their baby. Do you care what sort of home you pup the child of you furkids id going to, what happens if those people change their minds will you take it back or let it go to the pound or past on to another unknown environment, what if the puppy you bred turns on it's family will you take responsibility for now checking the temperaments?

Please think about this and not breed your dogs, love them raise them and grow old with them but don't breed them. It's not fair on your dogs or the puppy owners if something goes wrong.

Edited September 4, 2013 by Angeluca

[Guest donatella]

Lots of people are happy to pay whatever it costs to have the best example of the breed. A lot of BYB dogs don't look as good as purebreds, you can generally pick a purebred out as they are a perfect example of the breed whereas a BYB dog of the same breed may look similar but the proportions and colouring are out.

I spent $1500 on my latest but she is absolutely stunning in both looks and personality, I wouldn't hesitate to pay it again and again as I know that a BYB dog could never get them looking as good. It's hard to tell as puppies how they will mature as adults but at least with a good breeder you can see their lines and know they have put a lot of time and money into getting their dogs as close to breed perfection as they can.

[Lasareina]

Yeah, that’s the problem. If you set out to do things properly and breed healthy happy pups that carry only the best attributes of your breed, you will never make money, and yet people will bitch about the cost. That’s why it seems most responsible breeders really only do it for the love of the breed.

Of course if you’re happy to over-breed your substandard bitch with an equally substandard male, and forgo the niceties of hip & elbow scoring, vet services, and raise the pups in some chook-pen out the back, then I guess there may be a few dollars to be made.

Unfortunately low-cost pups appeal to “low-cost” owners who won’t care for their dog properly and will dump it at the first sign of trouble.

Personally I would rather see a few more dogs coming from quality breeders at a HIGHER price.

This is the point that I was saying I had an objection to.

Before I say anything I want to make clear that I have NO PROBLEM with breeders asking whatever price they want for their puppies. They have put in the time, effort and money and it is absolutely up to them what price they want to ask in return.

...

I in no way mean to diminish what breeders are trying to achieve, or make a judgement about whether you should or shouldn't buy from a registered breeder... I just think that some generalisations are a tad unfair.

Please read the parts of my post where I clearly state that I am not saying that registered breeders are charging too much, and where I clearly say I am not trying to question the importance of what the breeders ares trying to achieve or argue whether people should or shouldn't buy from registered breeders.

Both my staffies were bought from local families with litters from their family dogs. They were $500 each. There is NO WAY I could have convinced my partner that it is necessary or desirable to spend $1500+ each on the pups. To be honest, I would have had difficulty swallowing that myself ... In my family bargain hunting is like a religion :laugh: . We had just bought our first home, and are both in fairly low paying jobs.

If you decide down the track that you want to breed pedigreed SBTs, my guess is that your thoughts will change. You'll see spending that money as an investment in a dog that's a good representative of the breed standard and you'll pay it to get a pup from health tested parents that's been whelped and raised to the best of the breeder's ability. You'll look at pups tht most people think are cuteness overload with eyes that see conformation faults that may lead to ongoing soundness problems and you'll want none of that.

And when the time comes for you to sell your thoughtfully bred pups, you'll put a price on them that reflects the time and effort you went into selecting your breeding stock, whelping the litter and raising it with optimum care.

Sometimes, just sometimes with dogs you do get what you paid for - or didn't in the case of dogs with completely preventable health issues.

Good breeders don't need to hold a gun to anyone's head to get the prices they charge. I don't see anyone suggesting that those who don't want to pay that sort of money should have to either. But consider for a moment what's paying for the forum so many people turn to for advice on raising their pups. Seems to me that some people aren't fully aware of how much registered dog breeders contribute to providing the informaton so many people gain here. "I'd never pay that for a pup" you say. But here you are, benefiting from those who do. Extolling the benefits of bargain hunting doesn't sit so well with me in that regard.

I'm not suggesting that all dog owners shouldn't be here and share in the wealth of knowledge this forum provides. But perhaps a little more respect for the aims of this forum and what it seeks to promote is called for. If your view is that there's no way in future you'd buy an ANKC registered pup (or a rescue), don't expect that to sit well with everyone. For some of us, cost is not the issue that drives what we buy and IMO the more you learn about dogs, the more you'll value what a responsibly bred pedigreed pup means.

FYI, I've never paid more than $800 for a pedigreed pup. The last one was free. :)

The "bargain" comment was an attempt at a lighthearted way of highlighting my upbringing - I was not trying to say that I equate my much loved pups with a bargain.

I'm not sure where you got the impression that "there's no way I would ever buy an ANKC registered pup" - that's not what I was saying and it is not what I think... down the track I would actually love to become more involved in the dog world, learn more and maybe eventually moved down the track of becoming a registered breeder.

I wasn't really meaning to debate the merits of whether or not everyone should but a registered pedigree puppy - just saying that if people choose NOT to, it doesn't automatically mean they will be any less of an attentive and caring owner. Just as someone who does buy a pedigree puppy isn't automatically going to be a great owner.

The point I was trying to make is that people should be judged on their actions, not from some overarching generalisation.

I think I read somewhere that registered pedigree breeders account for only about 10 - 20% of Australian dogs. Does this mean that the other 80 - 90% of dog owners can be automatically catergorised as "“low-cost” owners who won’t care for their dog properly and will dump it at the first sign of trouble."??

I probably have the exact percentage wrong but you can see what I mean.

I tried very hard NOT to offend anyone, as I know the majority of people on this forum are either registered breeders or own registered dogs. I really don't see how I was disrespectful. I was simply questioning this one assumption. Forums are designed for discussion and communication, so i thought that would be allowed

That conformation you say isn't important is very important an any dog.

Over 90% of dogs us breeders breed are for the pet home, but we want them to have the best possible dog they can get, equally as important to a pup retained for breeding and or showing.

A dog's conformation helps stabilize a dog running full pelt around a yard/beach. It serves the dog in old age when his bones and joint are getting old his structure and conformation may make it that bit more bearable.

As a byb what advice do you sell your puppies with what help that puppy settle in their new home, will you offer the home when they are having a few issues more importantly what are you doing to do when the pup you sell is very very sick with something you could have prevented, and that family is loosing their baby. Do you care what sort of home you pup the child of you furkids id going to, what happens if those people change their minds will you take it back or let it go to the pound or past on to another unknown environment, what if the puppy you bred turns on it's family will you take responsibility for now checking the temperaments?

Please think about this and not breed your dogs, love them raise them and grow old with them but don't breed them. It's not fair on your dogs or the puppy owners if something goes wrong.

...

We were considering breeding our much loved pets, together, years down the track because we thought they are excellent family pets which would produce beautiful puppies.

Then I joined this forum, read a lot of information, learnt a lot, and began to question this intention.

I have now come to understand, and accept why people on this forum are against unregistered breeding.

Juno is now desexed. To suggest that I would go down the street and select a random dog to replace Juno with is ridiculous and insulting.

...

I am not a back yard breeder , I have never had a litter of pups, and Juno is now desexed so I won't be in the future either. A couple of other user has labelled me this because I dared to ask advice about what to do in the case of an accidental mating which occurred due to my inexperience with owning entire dogs. I admitted I had made a mistake,followed the advice that I got, Juno is now spayed, there will be no pups.

I was saying NOT that conformation is unimportant - I was trying to show that I understand the advantages of owning a pedigree pup over a non pedigree pup in this area. That I understood that you had more chance of something going wrong if you chose a non pedigree pup.

I AGREE WITH WHAT YOU ARE ALL SAYING ABOUT THE ADVANTAGES OF BUYING A PEDIGREE PUP.

I AM NOT SAYING THAT BUYING A NON PEDIGREE PUP IS BETTER.

I AM NOT QUESTIONING THE AMOUNT BREEDERS CHARGE FOR THEIR PUPS - after reading the OP I would actually expect the price to be higher.

I had one point that I was trying to debate - that when someone buys a non pedigree puppy at a lower cost then they can automatically be classified as a bad owner, who won't provide for the dogs needs, and who is likely to dump the dog at the first hurdle.

That was all I was trying to say. Everything else in the post was to illustrate an example of why this assumption can be incorrect, and in an attempt (obviously failed) to ensure so one got offended, or misconstrued my comment.

No body has actually said anything about the original point that I was trying to make... I am going to assume that they therefore agree that this assumption is not always true, and count that as a win. :laugh:

[minimax]

I am not a back yard breeder , I have never had a litter of pups, and Juno is now desexed so I won't be in the future either. A couple of other user has labelled me this because I dared to ask advice about what to do in the case of an accidental mating which occurred due to my inexperience with owning entire dogs. I admitted I had made a mistake,followed the advice that I got, Juno is now spayed, there will be no pups.

I was saying NOT that conformation is unimportant - I was trying to show that I understand the advantages of owning a pedigree pup over a non pedigree pup in this area. That I understood that you had more chance of something going wrong if you chose a non pedigree pup.

I AGREE WITH WHAT YOU ARE ALL SAYING ABOUT THE ADVANTAGES OF BUYING A PEDIGREE PUP.

I AM NOT SAYING THAT BUYING A NON PEDIGREE PUP IS BETTER.

I AM NOT QUESTIONING THE AMOUNT BREEDERS CHARGE FOR THEIR PUPS - after reading the OP I would actually expect the price to be higher.

I had one point that I was trying to debate - that when someone buys a non pedigree puppy at a lower cost then they can automatically be classified as a bad owner, who won't provide for the dogs needs, and who is likely to dump the dog at the first hurdle.

That was all I was trying to say. Everything else in the post was to illustrate an example of why this assumption can be incorrect, and in an attempt (obviously failed) to ensure so one got offended, or misconstrued my comment.

No body has actually said anything about the original point that I was trying to make... I am going to assume that they therefore agree that this assumption is not always true, and count that as a win. :laugh:

Actually, it was because you were going to breed your dogs because you thought they were the best, and because (and let me quote you here) "I know the general attitude on this forum is that only registered breeders can be ethical but I personally don't subscribe to that idea."