Price Of Puppies

[Salukifan]

My GSD girl also came from a great breeder and very well know, had many champions etc etc etc. My girl had good hips and an excellent temperament, even the vet said she's a very good girl and easy to handle also I was told you have a very well bred GSD but she still died of Cancer. A Cancer common in GSDs and luck has nothing to do with it and no one cares, I'm amazed breeders can ask $1500 for a pup knowing the health issues in their breeds.

You sound like you did your research & found that there's 'a cancer common in GSDS'. Seems you weighed up element of risk in getting a GSD? Did you ask the breeder if it occurred in the depth & breadth of your pup's background?

I expect there's no genetic test for the cancer you're talking about? There's no magic bullet genetic tests for most human conditions either. There's also a complex interaction between a certain mutation.... what other mutations exist... & the environment. So someone can carry a mutation but the condition never arises.

Dog breeders can't be held to a different standard of disease prevention than that which is possible for humans.

You ask any GSD owner have you heard of Hemangiosarcoma and the answer would be no and I'd never heard of it either until my poor girl died of it, but breeders know about it and are not going to tell puppy buyers that this Cancer is common in GSD's that there are no tests or symptoms until it's too late and it's always fatal and can get it as young as 5 years of age are they.

And yet a quick Google links the risk of Hemangiosarcoma to the breed, notes that its not an uncommon cancer in dogs generally and links desexing to an increased risk of the cancer.

So what would you have GSD breeders do other than to recommend buyers don't desex their pups?

Why is it when a purebred dog has a health issue its generally blamed on breed when a crossbred dog has the same issue, its just bad luck?

Yes, there are absolutely breeds that are more prone to some issues but it's not a guarantee of issues occuring anymore than being crossbred guarantees health. Until statistics are gathered on randomly bred dogs, no one knows how common health issues are for them.

Edited March 8, 2013 by Haredown Whippets

[german_shep_fan]

My GSD girl also came from a great breeder and very well know, had many champions etc etc etc. My girl had good hips and an excellent temperament, even the vet said she's a very good girl and easy to handle also I was told you have a very well bred GSD but she still died of Cancer. A Cancer common in GSDs and luck has nothing to do with it and no one cares, I'm amazed breeders can ask $1500 for a pup knowing the health issues in their breeds.

You sound like you did your research & found that there's 'a cancer common in GSDS'. Seems you weighed up element of risk in getting a GSD? Did you ask the breeder if it occurred in the depth & breadth of your pup's background?

I expect there's no genetic test for the cancer you're talking about? There's no magic bullet genetic tests for most human conditions either. There's also a complex interaction between a certain mutation.... what other mutations exist... & the environment. So someone can carry a mutation but the condition never arises.

Dog breeders can't be held to a different standard of disease prevention than that which is possible for humans.

You ask any GSD owner have you heard of Hemangiosarcoma and the answer would be no and I'd never heard of it either until my poor girl died of it, but breeders know about it and are not going to tell puppy buyers that this Cancer is common in GSD's that there are no tests or symptoms until it's too late and it's always fatal and can get it as young as 5 years of age are they.

And yet a quick Google links the risk of Hemangiosarcoma to the breed, notes that its not an uncommon cancer in dogs generally and links desexing to an increased risk of the cancer.

So what would you have GSD breeders do other than to recommend buyers don't desex their pups?

Why is it when a purebred dog has a health issue its generally blamed on breed when a crossbred dog has the same issue, its just bad luck?

Yes, there are absolutely breeds that are more prone to some issues but it's not a guarantee of issues occuring anymore than being crossbred guarantees health. Until statistics are gathered on randomly bred dogs, no one knows how common health issues are for them.

Some good points HW. All you can do is understand how common it is (latest stats I read were 1 in every 2 or half of all GSDs). If you want to take the risk then fork out the $$$ if you want. I will not be desexing any of my shepherds ever again now, not rocket science to control behaviour and wether or not a bitch mates. Unfortunately, even if breeders did take srs note of the research I doubt they would give puppy buyers the option of not desexing as most go on limited reg and would want them done.

[Rebanne]

Some good points HW. All you can do is understand how common it is (latest stats I read were 1 in every 2 or half of all GSDs). If you want to take the risk then fork out the $$$ if you want. I will not be desexing any of my shepherds ever again now, not rocket science to control behaviour and wether or not a bitch mates. Unfortunately, even if breeders did take srs note of the research I doubt they would give puppy buyers the option of not desexing as most go on limited reg and would want them done.

I've had 5 GSD's, none of whom had Hemangiosarcoma. I've had 5 Greyhounds and none have had it but my daughters Greyhound has. Luckily it's only on his skin, at this stage, and it's been over 12 months since the first was removed.

[Salukifan]

Some good points HW. All you can do is understand how common it is (latest stats I read were 1 in every 2 or half of all GSDs). If you want to take the risk then fork out the $ if you want. I will not be desexing any of my shepherds ever again now, not rocket science to control behaviour and wether or not a bitch mates. Unfortunately, even if breeders did take srs note of the research I doubt they would give puppy buyers the option of not desexing as most go on limited reg and would want them done.

You know I wonder if anyone ever considers that some health issues are LESS common in some breeds than in the canine population generally. I'd love to see more stats collected about disease and health issue incidence generally.

Vasectomy or tubal ligation would still be viable options for GSDs where breeding was not desired.

Edited March 8, 2013 by Haredown Whippets

[Gelbregen]

I had a classic last night. "What price are your pups?" answer $900 but willing to negotiate to the right home..."Will you take $300 then? There is some closer to home for that price in the paper" answer after wiping up the mouthful of coffee I just spat out was That wouldn't even cover the Vet costs and the stud fee

I just don't understand why they then hung up on me

Ok so maybe I did fall into that one but seriously.

[YOLO]

As for people “carefully selecting their crossbreeds,” that is simply a crock. Firstly you have no idea what specific characteristics a cross-breed will develop, unless you have been able to rigorously evaluate several older adult full-siblings, and that is virtually never going to happen.)

Why do simple posts always have to turn into pure vs cross breeds?

I find the above statement to be a wild generalisation,and unfair for the reasons Corvus brought up.It may well be mostly true when dogs are bred only to supply "popular markets" and for profit. A lot less true when dogs are bred for a specific role in which case dogs are still selected for specific traits and more often than not,evaluated in just the way you mention above,for success at "work" and in the situation in which they are usually kept.

Its pretty much how most breeds came into being and still does happen today.

That’s a rather circuitous and self-defeating argument. It’s like saying that since most dogs are descended from canis lupus, we are should all just buy wolves.

I can’t think of many current examples of dogs being cross-bred for a purpose (as opposed to “fashion”) except perhaps some working dogs, but even there I think that most of the breeds are well established.

The overwhelming majority of cross-breed pups stem from either irresponsible owners allowing their own questionable bitches to breed with whatever comes along, BYB and puppy farms breeding scores of “white fluffies” for the pet store market, and those corrupting breeds in the interests of fashion (eg Silver Labradors, White Retrievers, etc.)

[tarope]

You ask any GSD owner have you heard of Hemangiosarcoma and the answer would be no and I'd never heard of it either until my poor girl died of it, but breeders know about it and are not going to tell puppy buyers that this Cancer is common in GSD's that there are no tests or symptoms until it's too late and it's always fatal and can get it as young as 5 years of age are they.

if there are no tests how can you blame a breeder for not telling you? If they had a dog affected by hemangiosarcoma it is quite possible it was never diagnosed, particulary if it was an old dog whose passing was somewhat expected.

If you had a dog with Hemangiosarcoma you would know.

[tarope]

My GSD girl also came from a great breeder and very well know, had many champions etc etc etc. My girl had good hips and an excellent temperament, even the vet said she's a very good girl and easy to handle also I was told you have a very well bred GSD but she still died of Cancer. A Cancer common in GSDs and luck has nothing to do with it and no one cares, I'm amazed breeders can ask $1500 for a pup knowing the health issues in their breeds.

You sound like you did your research & found that there's 'a cancer common in GSDS'. Seems you weighed up element of risk in getting a GSD? Did you ask the breeder if it occurred in the depth & breadth of your pup's background?

I expect there's no genetic test for the cancer you're talking about? There's no magic bullet genetic tests for most human conditions either. There's also a complex interaction between a certain mutation.... what other mutations exist... & the environment. So someone can carry a mutation but the condition never arises.

Dog breeders can't be held to a different standard of disease prevention than that which is possible for humans.

You ask any GSD owner have you heard of Hemangiosarcoma and the answer would be no and I'd never heard of it either until my poor girl died of it, but breeders know about it and are not going to tell puppy buyers that this Cancer is common in GSD's that there are no tests or symptoms until it's too late and it's always fatal and can get it as young as 5 years of age are they.

And yet a quick Google links the risk of Hemangiosarcoma to the breed, notes that its not an uncommon cancer in dogs generally and links desexing to an increased risk of the cancer.

So what would you have GSD breeders do other than to recommend buyers don't desex their pups?

So Hemangiosarcoma is caused by desexing your dog is it, I must tell my vet so we can all have a good laugh and you've never heard of it either.

[tdierikx]

I can't find anything that says that Hemangiosarcoma is hereditary... I can find things saying that it's a fairly common cancer across the board, more prevalent in larger breeds, and that there may be anecdotal "evidence" that GSD's and GR's are the "most" affected breeds.

You could have an older dog with Hemangiosarcoma and never really know it - unless you tested specifically for it - as in a large number of cases the disease affects the heart and spleen, and the dog dies before the true cause can be found. By the time it shows any real symptoms, the dog is pretty far gone, and not much can be done at that point.

I had a Rotti girl get Hemangiosarcoma - it's not nice... *grrr*

T.

[Salukifan]

So Hemangiosarcoma is caused by desexing your dog is it, I must tell my vet so we can all have a good laugh and you've never heard of it either.

Well, your vet can read the veterinary research published in veterinary journals that has discusses an increased incidence of Hemangiosarcoma in desexed animals and conclude that hormones have a role in preventing its occurence. That's not the same as "desexing causes Hemangiosarcoma".

Laugh it up but the science is out there for those who care to look for it.

Edited March 8, 2013 by Haredown Whippets

[Bjelkier]

You are at better odds getting a dog of known lines and testing, than you are a byb mutt or 'purebred'

This is exactly the kind of thing I'm talking about. This is actually not an established fact as far as I'm aware. Unless you have some numbers no one else seems to have. These arguments can't be settled without it because obviously there are deviations and diseases and health issues in both pedigree dogs and non-pedigree dogs. Where there are people saying they have only seen problems in non-pedigree dogs there are others saying they've only seen problems in pedigree dogs. And those who have seen a lot of problems have seen them in both. I think it's irresponsible to make statements with such certainty when they are in reality uncertain.

I think until an unbiased study is done all people can do is go of their own experiences. For me it would be in favour of purebreds. All the pedigree dogs I have owned have been healthy bar one that had a mild food allergy. Every mutt/petstore dog I've had multiple mental and physical issues.

So if someone was to ask me which is the better bet I'd say pedigree.

[german_shep_fan]

So Hemangiosarcoma is caused by desexing your dog is it, I must tell my vet so we can all have a good laugh and you've never heard of it either.

Well, your vet can read the veterinary research published in veterinary journals that has discusses an increased incidence of Hemangiosarcoma in desexed animals and conclude that hormones have a role in preventing its occurence. That's not the same as "desexing causes Hemangiosarcoma".

Laugh it up but the science is out there for those who care to look for it.

+1 My own personal experience speaks to this, coincidence or not my 2 past sheps I desexed both died of it and the one we didn't died at 15 of old age. Many US breeders are now keeping data on their puppy owners and the results as to wether or not the dogs are desexed and how long the dog lives and what it dies of. The results are speaking for themselves.

Edited March 8, 2013 by german_shep_fan

[bianca.a]

Thank you Tarope, I appreciate it. Actually Coopers breeder gave me a complete refund when I let her know. I didn't want to take it to be honest, but DH was insistent.

[corvus]

You are at better odds getting a dog of known lines and testing, than you are a byb mutt or 'purebred'

This is exactly the kind of thing I'm talking about. This is actually not an established fact as far as I'm aware. Unless you have some numbers no one else seems to have. These arguments can't be settled without it because obviously there are deviations and diseases and health issues in both pedigree dogs and non-pedigree dogs. Where there are people saying they have only seen problems in non-pedigree dogs there are others saying they've only seen problems in pedigree dogs. And those who have seen a lot of problems have seen them in both. I think it's irresponsible to make statements with such certainty when they are in reality uncertain.

of the known diseases and hereditary conditions that can be tested for, why would you think the odds in pedigree dogs as opposed to those without would be the same?

That's a different question, isn't it? My question is are the odds in fact better for pedigree dogs? The answer to that question is nobody actually knows because the data don't exist. What I think is an opinion. What you stated sounded like a fact. It's not a fact at this point as far as I'm aware, regardless of what I or you or anyone else thinks.

[DogsAndTheMob]

How can you measure the odds on what is, in effect, a moving target? The crossbreed "demographic" in my town this year may be different from the crossbreed "demographic" in your town, and may also be different from the crossbreed "demographic" in my town next year, depending on the fashionable style of dog. This would make it difficult to generalise the results of a survey over time or distance.

If, in addition, there is any difference between owners of purebred dogs and owners of crossbreed dogs in their response to possible health problems, (such as the assumption that crossbreed dogs are healthier and don't need to be seen by a vet), then that would further complicate interpretation of any statistically significant differences.

I don't think that purebred dogs are intrinsically more or less healthy than crossbreed dogs... Too much depends on the parentage of the individual. All you can do is look at health records and genetic testing of the kinship group of the individual dog, and you are unlikely to obtain reliably documented evidence of health and genetic testing of the relatives of the majority of crossbreed puppies.

[tarope]

So Hemangiosarcoma is caused by desexing your dog is it, I must tell my vet so we can all have a good laugh and you've never heard of it either.

Well, your vet can read the veterinary research published in veterinary journals that has discusses an increased incidence of Hemangiosarcoma in desexed animals and conclude that hormones have a role in preventing its occurence. That's not the same as "desexing causes Hemangiosarcoma".

Laugh it up but the science is out there for those who care to look for it.

Hemangiosarcoma is no laughing mater, what does make me laugh are people who think they know every thing. Since I lost my girl to this aggressive Cancer I didn't need to google it, as my vet knows more about it than anyone on DOL and in 9 mths saw 6 GSDs with this Cancer and all died.

So just for you I googled it,here are the results.

What they all say is ....it's common in GSDs and a few other breeds.... is hereditary and the cause is not know and is always fatal... it affects males more than females. As I said other breeds have this cancer including the Dobermann, the last link shows health issues with all breeds.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hemangiosarcoma

http://caninecancerawareness.org/canine-cancer-diagnosis/hemangiosarcoma

http://www.modianolab.org/cancer/cancer_hemangiosarcoma.shtml

http://www.morrisanimalfoundation.org/animal-lovers/hemangiosarcoma.html

http://www.wearethecure.org/hemangiosarcoma

http://sydney.edu.au/vetscience/lida/dogs/

Edited March 8, 2013 by tarope

[tdierikx]

None of those articles states conclusively that Hemangiosarcoma is heritable - just that it is suspected that heritable factors may come into play in the forming of the cancer itself... but they have no proof either way that this is actually the case.

T.

[WExtremeG]

How can you measure the odds on what is, in effect, a moving target? The crossbreed "demographic" in my town this year may be different from the crossbreed "demographic" in your town, and may also be different from the crossbreed "demographic" in my town next year, depending on the fashionable style of dog. This would make it difficult to generalise the results of a survey over time or distance.

If, in addition, there is any difference between owners of purebred dogs and owners of crossbreed dogs in their response to possible health problems, (such as the assumption that crossbreed dogs are healthier and don't need to be seen by a vet), then that would further complicate interpretation of any statistically significant differences.

I don't think that purebred dogs are intrinsically more or less healthy than crossbreed dogs... Too much depends on the parentage of the individual. All you can do is look at health records and genetic testing of the kinship group of the individual dog, and you are unlikely to obtain reliably documented evidence of health and genetic testing of the relatives of the majority of crossbreed puppies.

Vet records would be one way.- of course we would need to differentiate between pedigree purebreds and backyard bred'purebreds' then obviously you also have the crossbreds/mutts as well.

One vet I know doesn't make a distinction between the first two- sees 'purebreds' with problems all the time- thinks the breed standards are useless as no one's paying any attention to them - well how many byb'er ever read a standard and cared? How many will tested for diseases/problems? How many care about conformation?

Ignorance is no excuse- many are repeaters- and there is a strange notion that these dogs are problem free- how can one even come to this conclusion?

With the availability of genetic testing and (for the most part) reg breeders breeding away from genetic faults therefore limiting them in the gene pool, lowering the risks of getting an affected puppy, surely one could see that a pedigree puppy (as opposed to byb purebred') is in a league of its own?

I am willing to bank on it that pedigree dogs as a whole, are healthier with less genetic diseases than those with unknown histories/parentage-simply because

we have the knowledge to breed away from genetic diseases/problems and use the best dogs that we can, because we as a whole care about the future of our breed/s for generations to come.

And from my own experience- our pedigree dogs have been much healthier especially when it comes to structural, than any of the crosses/byb purebreds that some of our family members chose to own.

[tarope]

None of those articles states conclusively that Hemangiosarcoma is heritable - just that it is suspected that heritable factors may come into play in the forming of the cancer itself... but they have no proof either way that this is actually the case.

T.

The fact of the mater is, no one knows what causes it and that's the problem. My GSD boy is 10 yrs old and never been sick in his life, so not all GSDs get it...and not all Dobermanns will get Wobblers or many other health issues associated with these breeds but the risk is still there and no puppy buyer wants a sick dog do they.... as you don't know if your pup will lead a long healthy life which is what anyone wants especially after paying $1500.

[Salukifan]

Tarope:

Hemangiosarcoma is no laughing mater, what does make me laugh are people who think they know every thing

Pardon me?

I referred to research that links desexing to an increased incidence of Hemangiosarcoma.

You joked about having a good laugh with your vet, suggesting I had said "desexing causes Hemangiosarcoma". In other words you both misintepreted what I'd said and rubbished the research.

I have never suggested was an authority on the subject. I just pointed out the link.

I appreciate that your experience with Hemangiosarcoma is both personal and painful so I'll stay out of this from here on in.