Price Of Puppies

[corvus]

Although less scientific, in the absence of data, anecdotal evidence is at least some kind of evidence.

Agreed, but we have to be careful not to turn it into fact by the way we talk about it. It's just fair is all.

I have never heard of research being conducted or data being collected on health issues in crossbred dogs or dogs of unknown parentage. I hope it IS collected because as you suggest, it will provide facts. I'd like to see the issue explored scientifically and my guess is that the evidence would show neither purebed nor crossbred dogs are immune from inheritable health issues.

There's actually funding for a project on this kind of thing, to commence next year I think. I don't know exactly what they plan to do, and I promised myself I wouldn't post it here!

[corvus]

As to the hard sell - I think you have missed the point of my original post completly.

Id love to have a smooth sailing litter, with 7-8 puppies, with no issues.

I didnt. And I said that those hard moments I would love to outsource to someone. I would than possibly be able to charge the $100 for the puppies.

The point was that I had a "tyre kicker" call up ask for a price of a puppy, when I told him, he said - but Ive seen one in xyz place for x price wich was $100 less than mine.

Great - go and buy one there!

The original post irked me same way it irked teekay. I didn't really get what the point of it was. I guess you were just sharing in a moment of frustration. I'm sorry I took it the wrong way.

[OSoSwift]

I took it as a venting of frustration - which we all do at one point or other.

I have no issue with people asking for a price of a puppy and I will advertise the price or any puppies I breed. If people try to haggle the price they may find themselves slipping down/off my list rather quickly.

I do remember getting rather pissed off when I was selling the one and only puppy my Dobe bitch produced. I drove the puppy 750kms to Perth, to the persons home so I could meet her and see where she would be living. The lady was told many times if you decide you do not want to take the puppy then I don't mind I will drive her home (1500km round trip) She had a disqualifying fault and was for sale on the limited register for $500 - at the time the going rate, the person way fully aware of this fact and had been sent photos showing her the fault.

When we did the paperwork etc she then asked me if I would consider asking me if I would give her to the person for $400. I said no. She has cost me more than $500 to get her to 8 weeks then I have also driven 1500kms to deliver her. Apparently someone from the Dobe Club - not sure if that is true or whatever, told her she should ask for a discount as she had a diqualifying fault - it was a neck whorl so nothing to do with soundness etc. I would have thought bringing that up before I made the trip to Perth would have been better, rather until waiting until I was sitting in her loungeroom!!!! I think she was hoping I would say yes once I was about to hand the dog over, no such luck!!

[DogsAndTheMob]

This is why I'll be prepared to pay the money for a purebred, registered puppy, when I get my next dog (although that is many years away.)

I don't assume that a crossbreed puppy is a first generation cross with hybrid vigour (the spiel used to market "designer crossbreeds"). I assume that a crossbreed puppy is likely to be a second or subsequent generation cross, possibly from a mating of related individuals. I therefore anticipate that the puppy may be prone to any of the genetic diseases prevalent in the progenitor breeds.

My views are formed by my experience with the rescue "designer crossbreed" I owned for 12 years. He had more health problems than all my purebred dogs combined.

He had epilepsy from the time I rescued him. I've never owned a purebred dog with epilepsy.

He went blind from cataracts. (In fact, he already had impaired vision when I rescued him.) None of my purebred dogs have gone blind.

He had chronic back and neck problems from the time I rescued him, which were worse than anything I've seen in my purebred dogs, except in very old age.

He had alopecia with bruising and seborrhoea, which was evident when I rescued him, and only partially improved with care and grooming. None of my purebred dogs have had these skin problems.

He also had what I have since heard referred to as a typical "oodle" coat - a coat that matted within hours of grooming. His coat had to be clipped short, and that did nothing to conceal his alopecia or protect his bare skin.

On the plus side, he was a delightful, devoted dog, with a notably stable temperament, contrary to the inane stereotypes about "small white fluffies".

My views are also coloured by my observations of crossbreed puppies in petshops, which so often are obviously not the crosses that they are claimed to be. If their breeders are not even honest about the parent's breeds, how can anybody trust them to pay attention to the finer details of breeding healthy dogs?

Problems can and do occur with purebred dogs, even when great care has been taken. But at least with purebred puppies, I can look at the pedigree and ask pertinent questions.

Edited March 7, 2013 by DogsAndTheMob

[YOLO]

Ironically, there is an argument that randomly bred stray/wild mongrels will suffer from less congenital ailments; a combination of a broader gene-pool and some Darwinian theory.

However such breeding also tends to promote dominant/ aggressive/ predatory characteristics.

Most genetic characteristics can be bred out, that’s why we have different breeds to begin with. Therefore to the extent that these are genetic ailments (and can be detected) careful breeding will progressively eliminate them. Obviously not checking or breeding indiscriminately will NOT lessen the incidence and will continue to propagate these ailments.

As for people “carefully selecting their crossbreeds,” that is simply a crock. Firstly you have no idea what specific characteristics a cross-breed will develop, unless you have been able to rigorously evaluate several older adult full-siblings, and that is virtually never going to happen.) Simply because you have seen other “A x B” dogs, and the BYB claims theirs are also “A x B” doesn’t mean they will be even similar.

And to get back to the OT, here’s the rub. Breeding random cross-breeds is barely more “profitable” than pedigreed, UNLESS they are cutting corners. That’s the big JOKE of this whole argument. I am paying $1,300 directly to my breeder (and I know what I am getting and consider the money well spent.) If I paid even as much as $1,000 to a pet-shop, how much of that goes to breeder? Probably about half, maybe $600. No way have they properly cared for the bitch and pups for that sought of money. To see some pups in pet-shops for $500 is just frightening.

[bianca.a]

Well said MonElite... many issues that come up with all sorts of dogs (pure or mutt) can have environmental factors playing a part in the development of the issue.

For example: A large breed well bred pedigreed dog may have sound hips all the way back in their lines, but due to owners letting their pup jump on and off furniture, taking it for long strenuous play or walk sessions as it is growing, etc - there is NO guarantee that the hips will stay perfect, is there? Sure it has a better chance than one that was BYB, but still...

No breeder can 100% guarantee against ALL possible issues arising with any dog they pass on to a new home... some issues can be identified and lessened by testing and breeding against, and thus can be assured that they should not develop, but not all...

T.

I'm a bit late to this thread but my boy comes from a great breeder , dam, sire hip/elbow scored etc. My boy has never been allowed to jump, long walks etc and he has just had his first total hip replacement at 16 months old. I have had other large breed dogs before so I am aware of potential issues with joints.He has always been kept very lean. It appears he will need the other side done next year. In the last week I have spent over $8000 on him. Plus over $5000 on some other health issues. Purchase price for me was irrelevant. I didn't even ask until a few email and phone conversations when the breeder offered a pup to me. By the way he is a working line GSD. It does appear there is a chance that in his fourth generation there are a couple of dogs who have been known to throw crappy hips. I did my research at the time (as best I could) but to me it is just plain bad luck..my poor pups and mine. I bought him into my family and I will do whatever I can to ensure he has the best possible life. Am I deeply upset - yes but them the breaks. No guarantees with any living creature. Do I wish he didn't have these health issues - you betcha but I wouldn't trade him for the world.

[WExtremeG]

it may not mean much coming from a vet, but it was said that my dog was one of the nicer GSD's they'd seen in a long time (no reg breeders where I am- I had to fly my girl up)- I had a lengthy chat about bybing (and how I dead against it) with the vet nurse prior to leaving my girl for her op and after I picked her up. She told me about all the dogs they treat from eye operations (ectropion) to joint problems- some 'purebred' some mongrels. She said that our GSD was a real pleasure (and surprise) to have in the surgery as they see (her words) a lot of problem dogs and she'd often wonder if the people who bought the dog had done any research prior to getting their dog and where from.

You are at better odds getting a dog of known lines and testing, than you are a byb mutt or 'purebred'

[moosmum]

As for people “carefully selecting their crossbreeds,” that is simply a crock. Firstly you have no idea what specific characteristics a cross-breed will develop, unless you have been able to rigorously evaluate several older adult full-siblings, and that is virtually never going to happen.)

Why do simple posts always have to turn into pure vs cross breeds?

I find the above statement to be a wild generalisation,and unfair for the reasons Corvus brought up.It may well be mostly true when dogs are bred only to supply "popular markets" and for profit. A lot less true when dogs are bred for a specific role in which case dogs are still selected for specific traits and more often than not,evaluated in just the way you mention above,for success at "work" and in the situation in which they are usually kept.

Its pretty much how most breeds came into being and still does happen today.

While there are pedigree breeders putting just as little thought into their practices as most of those catering for the DD market,the only thing those particular breeders can guarantee is a "look" and a false sense of security for buyers who haven't done their home work in as much depth as is needed..Its those breeders who cause the damage to pedigree dogs in general.

Not poorly bred cross breeds.

Back on topic,

Monelite,

Anyone who argues your prices has not done their research to understand the value of what they are getting .If all pedigree breeders put in as much care to the selection of their dogs and their health,THEN these arguments would have real meaning.

[mita]

As for people “carefully selecting their crossbreeds,” that is simply a crock. Firstly you have no idea what specific characteristics a cross-breed will develop, unless you have been able to rigorously evaluate several older adult full-siblings, and that is virtually never going to happen.)

Why do simple posts always have to turn into pure vs cross breeds?

I find the above statement to be a wild generalisation,and unfair f

There's an underlying fact lurking behind that generalisation.

There's more potential for control of outcomes with purebreeds because there's documentation of dogs not only back generations allowing for depth of pedigree search, but also breadth of search through the siblings of parent dogs. This unique position for pedigree dogs was highlighted, with great satisfaction, by a researcher in human medical science at one of our leading universities.

Dogs and humans share many medical conditions. So that medical researcher pointed out how, uniquely, purebred dogs allowed his research to track conditions we share ... by depth & breadth thro' generations, in a way that's not so accessible with humans. And with a view to developing prevention & treatment.

And BTW a comprehensive study in Denmark looked at longevity in mixed breeds and purebreeds. A bunch of pure breeds topped the list ( included poodles & dachshunds).

Edited March 8, 2013 by mita

[Salukifan]

As for people "carefully selecting their crossbreeds," that is simply a crock. Firstly you have no idea what specific characteristics a cross-breed will develop, unless you have been able to rigorously evaluate several older adult full-siblings, and that is virtually never going to happen.)

Why do simple posts always have to turn into pure vs cross breeds?

I find the above statement to be a wild generalisation,and unfair for the reasons Corvus brought up.It may well be mostly true when dogs are bred only to supply "popular markets" and for profit. A lot less true when dogs are bred for a specific role in which case dogs are still selected for specific traits and more often than not,evaluated in just the way you mention above,for success at "work" and in the situation in which they are usually kept.

Its pretty much how most breeds came into being and still does happen today.

You're right up to a point. The issue with any crossbred and selection for certain characterisitcs is that crossbred dogs, due to their wider genetic range, have a wider range of potential characteristics, both physically and temperamentally. So if you're "selecting" a crossbred dog for a certain set of characteristics, statistically the more specific your selection criteria, the less likely you are to get what you want.

Any breed development program involved and continues to involve a lot of "culling". That doesn't necessarily mean knocking dogs on the head but it does mean eliminating any individual that doesn't meet the breeding program requirements from the gene pool and only breeding on from those who have the characteristics you want. Once you've improved the reliability of getting what you want and you cement those characteristics, you close the books and only breed on from the existing gene pool.

That's the same for any species.

There's a lot of hooha around the idea that purebred folk think their dogs are "better". You have to break it down beyond that. Sure there are some snobs but the bottom line of why I chose purebred dogs is that the odds of the pup I chose ending up to be the adult dog I want to live with are far better with a purebred.

Last time I checked the number one reason that sees dogs unwanted is that they "failed to live up to the owners expectations". Now some of that is buyer ignorance and also failure to socialise and train. But some of it with crossbreds is that the dog simply didn't grow up into what was expected. Issues like size, coat type, temperament, activity level etc are all characteristics specifically bred for in purebred dogs. If those things matter to you, and you want the best chance of getting a reliable outcome then you go with the statistics.

How many crossbreds are currently bred for specific roles?

Edited March 8, 2013 by Haredown Whippets

[tarope]

If I go to a hairdresser to have my hair coloured I expect to pay for the hair dye AND the service that comes with it, not just the hair dye.

How is buing a puppy different?

If the hairdresser causes your hair to fall out then you have comeback and can even go on ACA or take them to court, but what happens if my Dobermann pup develops Wobbler Syndrome 4 years later....well nothing happens because the breeder claims never to have had this in their lines and no one else gives a stuff either.

I see the club on their web site still claim Wobbler Syndrome only affects old dogs, yes right as 4 yrs is old isn't it.

[MonElite]

And you are a dobermann owner should know that Wobblers isnt provent to be genetic.

That there is no test for it

and that there are high chances of it that environmental factors play a big role in its developement.

So all in all you can not blame the breeder entirely, as they most likely trully didnt know.

Where was your dog from?

[tarope]

I'm a bit late to this thread but my boy comes from a great breeder , dam, sire hip/elbow scored etc. My boy has never been allowed to jump, long walks etc and he has just had his first total hip replacement at 16 months old. I have had other large breed dogs before so I am aware of potential issues with joints.He has always been kept very lean. It appears he will need the other side done next year. In the last week I have spent over $8000 on him. Plus over $5000 on some other health issues. Purchase price for me was irrelevant. I didn't even ask until a few email and phone conversations when the breeder offered a pup to me. By the way he is a working line GSD. It does appear there is a chance that in his fourth generation there are a couple of dogs who have been known to throw crappy hips. I did my research at the time (as best I could) but to me it is just plain bad luck..my poor pups and mine. I bought him into my family and I will do whatever I can to ensure he has the best possible life. Am I deeply upset - yes but them the breaks. No guarantees with any living creature. Do I wish he didn't have these health issues - you betcha but I wouldn't trade him for the world.

I am so sorry for you as no one should have to go through that,the breeder wasn't so great after all and they say it's bad luck yeah right but it's not bad luck for the breeder they have your money don't they.

My GSD girl also came from a great breeder and very well know, had many champions etc etc etc. My girl had good hips and an excellent temperament, even the vet said she's a very good girl and easy to handle also I was told you have a very well bred GSD but she still died of Cancer. A Cancer common in GSDs and luck has nothing to do with it and no one cares, I'm amazed breeders can ask $1500 for a pup knowing the health issues in their breeds.

[mita]

My GSD girl also came from a great breeder and very well know, had many champions etc etc etc. My girl had good hips and an excellent temperament, even the vet said she's a very good girl and easy to handle also I was told you have a very well bred GSD but she still died of Cancer. A Cancer common in GSDs and luck has nothing to do with it and no one cares, I'm amazed breeders can ask $1500 for a pup knowing the health issues in their breeds.

You sound like you did your research & found that there's 'a cancer common in GSDS'. Seems you weighed up element of risk in getting a GSD? Did you ask the breeder if it occurred in the depth & breadth of your pup's background?

I expect there's no genetic test for the cancer you're talking about? There's no magic bullet genetic tests for most human conditions either. There's also a complex interaction between a certain mutation.... what other mutations exist... & the environment. So someone can carry a mutation but the condition never arises.

Dog breeders can't be held to a different standard of disease prevention than that which is possible for humans.

Edited March 8, 2013 by mita

[tarope]

And you are a dobermann owner should know that Wobblers isnt provent to be genetic.

That there is no test for it

and that there are high chances of it that environmental factors play a big role in its developement.

So all in all you can not blame the breeder entirely, as they most likely trully didnt know.

Where was your dog from?

I was a Dobermann owner and Wobblers was the reason I never wanted another one and of cause the attitude of the breeder who claimed my girl didn't have it,and we've never had it but x-rays said she did and three vets said it's hereditary which it is. My girl died 10 years ago and there's still no test for it, so why would I want to go through that again. Don't get me wrong I love the breed, such big sooks and so gentle and no dog smell even when wet.... she slept in her dog bed in our room all her life and the last year or two because of the medication (lost all bladder control) I put her in the spare room but it was only for one night as she cried all night so I got some drop sheets. A health Dobe would be great and I hope all your puppies live long and health lives, will pm you.

[MonElite]

I keep repeating that there is a possibility of environmental factors that contribute to wobblers.

So maybe your girl got it, and her sister didnt.

Becuase maybe your dog walked on polished floor board or slipper tiles, or lots of stairs, or was doing a lot of jumping, or whatever it could be.

And was more prone to it than a sibbling.

If all dogs in the litter got it at the same age you would want to question it.

My dog got it as well when he was about 8.5.

One of his sons is alive and well at over 10 and doesnt have it.

Another alive and well at 9 and doesnt have it.

Daughter - dead now from cancer, never had wobblers.

These are all from differnet litters BTW.

If there is a test available its good to test, but for most deseases there is no test, so how can anyone guarantee that years down the track the dog will not get it?

[corvus]

You are at better odds getting a dog of known lines and testing, than you are a byb mutt or 'purebred'

This is exactly the kind of thing I'm talking about. This is actually not an established fact as far as I'm aware. Unless you have some numbers no one else seems to have. These arguments can't be settled without it because obviously there are deviations and diseases and health issues in both pedigree dogs and non-pedigree dogs. Where there are people saying they have only seen problems in non-pedigree dogs there are others saying they've only seen problems in pedigree dogs. And those who have seen a lot of problems have seen them in both. I think it's irresponsible to make statements with such certainty when they are in reality uncertain.

[tarope]

My GSD girl also came from a great breeder and very well know, had many champions etc etc etc. My girl had good hips and an excellent temperament, even the vet said she's a very good girl and easy to handle also I was told you have a very well bred GSD but she still died of Cancer. A Cancer common in GSDs and luck has nothing to do with it and no one cares, I'm amazed breeders can ask $1500 for a pup knowing the health issues in their breeds.

You sound like you did your research & found that there's 'a cancer common in GSDS'. Seems you weighed up element of risk in getting a GSD? Did you ask the breeder if it occurred in the depth & breadth of your pup's background?

I expect there's no genetic test for the cancer you're talking about? There's no magic bullet genetic tests for most human conditions either. There's also a complex interaction between a certain mutation.... what other mutations exist... & the environment. So someone can carry a mutation but the condition never arises.

Dog breeders can't be held to a different standard of disease prevention than that which is possible for humans.

You ask any GSD owner have you heard of Hemangiosarcoma and the answer would be no and I'd never heard of it either until my poor girl died of it, but breeders know about it and are not going to tell puppy buyers that this Cancer is common in GSD's that there are no tests or symptoms until it's too late and it's always fatal and can get it as young as 5 years of age are they.

[Rebanne]

You ask any GSD owner have you heard of Hemangiosarcoma and the answer would be no and I'd never heard of it either until my poor girl died of it, but breeders know about it and are not going to tell puppy buyers that this Cancer is common in GSD's that there are no tests or symptoms until it's too late and it's always fatal and can get it as young as 5 years of age are they.

if there are no tests how can you blame a breeder for not telling you? If they had a dog affected by hemangiosarcoma it is quite possible it was never diagnosed, particulary if it was an old dog whose passing was somewhat expected.

[WExtremeG]

You are at better odds getting a dog of known lines and testing, than you are a byb mutt or 'purebred'

This is exactly the kind of thing I'm talking about. This is actually not an established fact as far as I'm aware. Unless you have some numbers no one else seems to have. These arguments can't be settled without it because obviously there are deviations and diseases and health issues in both pedigree dogs and non-pedigree dogs. Where there are people saying they have only seen problems in non-pedigree dogs there are others saying they've only seen problems in pedigree dogs. And those who have seen a lot of problems have seen them in both. I think it's irresponsible to make statements with such certainty when they are in reality uncertain.

of the known diseases and hereditary conditions that can be tested for, why would you think the odds in pedigree dogs as opposed to those without would be the same?