Price Of Puppies

[WExtremeG]

Because irresponsible people breed random dogs without health testing or thought for anything. There is a lot of evidence for that. The chances of dogs being fabulous is sheer luck, what effort do they go to to ensure their dogs will be fabulous?

Show it to me? Show me evidence that shows that anyone who is not an ANKC registered breeder that is breeding dogs is doing it in a completely random manner. I find that one in particular very hard to believe. They are at least picking the breeds they want to use most of the time. Show me the evidence that none of them health test. Maybe they have had different experiences, different upbringing, and different beliefs and education. How many random bred dogs does someone have to buy before they run out of luck? How many pedigree dogs? Rhetorical questions.

Of all the byb's I've asked , NONE have health tested their "breeding dogs" None have seen the "need" for it. as to selecting conformation- SOME had no clue what that even meant, while others didn't care.

If a person wanted to breed, but couldn't give a hoot about formal registration (ANKC ect) but still health tested and assessed temperament and Conformation- then they are not byb's in my book- but the kind of breeder who cares about what they produce (though I doubt you'll find many of these) as doing "right" by the dog is going to cut into their profit margin- and they may as well become a registered breeder.

Edited March 5, 2013 by WExtremeG

[tdierikx]

I suppose the average pet owner has very little clue about the lack of immunity in very young pups - and what a disaster they could inadvertently cause by tracking god only knows what into a breeder's premises just so they can "see the cute puppies"...

We don't let anyone see our rescue pups before they are vaccinated either... and people sometimes baulk at the pittance we charge for them - as if a rescue dog is supposed to be "worth less" for some strange reason. A very high proportion of pups born in rescue are caesarian deliveries (usually middle of the night emergencies... *sigh*), the mothers may not have had the best nutrition during the pregnancy, and suffers from eclampsia, etc... and then when people arbitrarily decide that our desexed, vaccinated, microchipped, socialised, happy and healthy puppies are "too much" at $300... well... I can see where an ethical registered breeder may be a little miffed at some prospective buyers' observations as to the "worth" of their pups...

T.

[Ruin Maniac]

When people who want dobes, rotties and other breeds that a certain kind of people are sometimes attracted to and ask about their size, I always worry that they mean the muscle on the adults and expect them to look like the hulk.

It's pretty easy to google what height and weight an average doberman or dog of any breed reaches. Obviously some people will want to know for perfectly legitimate reasons, but I know enough people who brag about how "tough" their dog looks to believe it happens now and then. :/

[chuckandsteve]

Thats my point exactly. I know nothing about buying a pup, I was raised with rescue dogs and have continued with rescue dogs. Everything I have read about breeders is they do it for the benefit of the breed and make absolutely no money, not that i assume they deserve no money but that is what some have led me to believe.

I pay for a behaviourist for my rescues if I was going to get a pup the first thing I would be willing to pay for is the pup being well socialised. So I am saying plug it you pay me more for my time because I put the effort in to give you a well socialised pup rather than one raised in a cage

That is part of my advertisement

Both dogs have been extensively tested and all puppies will be DNA negative for DCM (cardio) by parentage. No puppy from this litter will be vWD affected.

Puppies from this litter are expected to be very substantial and strong, with beautiful, powerful looking heads.

Our puppies are brought up in a family environment, they're extensivelly socialised with a variety of people, children, taken for car rides and fed a natural diet. These puppies will be great show and obedience prospects, and of course fantastic companions and family members.

Purchasing a puppy from us you'll be provided with a life time of support for your dog and a fantastic puppy pack.

But seriously - when people get their pup at 8 weeks, how much socialisation would they expect? The pups get vaccinated at 6-7 weeks, shouldnt be going anywhere as they are not immune.

They dont really interact much till they are about 5 weeks old, so how much can be done in the 3 weeks? Considering that its not one pup but the whole litter, and they should not be leaving the breeders premises.

What are peoples expectations?

Not kept in a cage, stay with their litter and mum just the basics really. It doesnt always happen and yes those would be very bad breeders

[Esky the husky]

^ There's plenty of other stuff pups can be introduced to in the household.

Blenders, vacuum cleaners, brooms, toilets flushing. Anything noisy and scary.

They can get used to being handled all over and accept grooming.

Get used to seeing people wearing different outfits, flapping raincoat etc.

And being introduced to different surfaces, grass, dirt, floorboard- whatever the breeder has handy really.

They don't have to be taken outside the home to be introduced to a whole bunch of things.

Esky's breeder takes the pups out in the car when she does the school run. They don't go out and socialise or anything, but still get to see plenty and get used to travelling. Not sure if it's a coincidence or not, but Esky's a perfect traveller, I am really thankful for breeders that take the time to introduce pups to as much of the world as they can while they're in their care :)

[WreckitWhippet]

Because irresponsible people breed random dogs without health testing or thought for anything. There is a lot of evidence for that. The chances of dogs being fabulous is sheer luck, what effort do they go to to ensure their dogs will be fabulous?

Show it to me? Show me evidence that shows that anyone who is not an ANKC registered breeder that is breeding dogs is doing it in a completely random manner. I find that one in particular very hard to believe. They are at least picking the breeds they want to use most of the time. Show me the evidence that none of them health test. Maybe they have had different experiences, different upbringing, and different beliefs and education. How many random bred dogs does someone have to buy before they run out of luck? How many pedigree dogs? Rhetorical questions.

Of all the byb's I've asked , NONE have health tested their "breeding dogs" None have seen the "need" for it. as to selecting conformation- SOME had no clue what that even meant, while others didn't care.

If a person wanted to breed, but couldn't give a hoot about formal registration (ANKC ect) but still health tested and assessed temperament and Conformation- then they are not byb's in my book- but the kind of breeder who cares about what they produce (though I doubt you'll find many of these) as doing "right" by the dog is going to cut into their profit margin- and they may as well become a registered breeder.

There's a couple of facebook pages that I ask every BYBer the relevant health questions pertaining to their breed and ask if the parents have been tested. I've asked countless BYBers and not one has said yes, the majority say there's no need to and that they are $500 puppies not show dogs.

[corvus]

There's a couple of facebook pages that I ask every BYBer the relevant health questions pertaining to their breed and ask if the parents have been tested. I've asked countless BYBers and not one has said yes, the majority say there's no need to and that they are $500 puppies not show dogs.

The next questions are a) how representative is your sample population? and b) what proportion of BYB puppies from parents that haven't been health tested have heritable diseases that can be tested for? and c) Is this number significantly different from the proportion of pedigree puppies that have heritable diseases that could be tested for? And finally, what is the probability of getting a puppy from a BYB that ends up with a heritable disease that can be tested for?

What if there really was no need??? Can you show there is a need? Do you have data? I can analyse data!

[corvus]

If I go to a hairdresser to have my hair coloured I expect to pay for the hair dye AND the service that comes with it, not just the hair dye.

How is buing a puppy different?

What are you charging per hour for your time?

I don't think I could ever afford a puppy from someone who charges for the time they spend on them as well as covering inputs and overheads. The point is not to break even or make a profit, right? Then it's different to hairdressing.

[Salukifan]

There's a couple of facebook pages that I ask every BYBer the relevant health questions pertaining to their breed and ask if the parents have been tested. I've asked countless BYBers and not one has said yes, the majority say there's no need to and that they are $500 puppies not show dogs.

The next questions are a) how representative is your sample population? and b) what proportion of BYB puppies from parents that haven't been health tested have heritable diseases that can be tested for? and c) Is this number significantly different from the proportion of pedigree puppies that have heritable diseases that could be tested for? And finally, what is the probability of getting a puppy from a BYB that ends up with a heritable disease that can be tested for?

What if there really was no need??? Can you show there is a need? Do you have data? I can analyse data!

Any dog over about 15 kg that is going to be used for breeding should probably be hip and elbow scored. HD and ED are size, not breed specific and two of the worst affected dogs I know are crossbred. The only two dogs I know that have needed hip replacements were pet shop/BYB purebreds. Luxating patellas are rife in small crossbred dogs and could be tested and scored.

Any oodle could potentially be PRA affected. Lab x Poodle crosses come from two breeds with a genetically identical form of PRA. The better crossbreeders are testing. Most F1 puppy farmers aren't. Ditto Cocker/Poodle cross breeders and any CKCS used in any breeding program should be heart tested.

Many purebred dog breeders do regular eye tests on breeding dogs. That is a practice that could be done on any breed or crossbreed of dog.

Edited March 5, 2013 by Haredown Whippets

[cowanbree]

[Any dog over about 15 kg that is going to be used for breeding should probably be hip and elbow scored. HD and ED are size, not breed specific and two of the worst affected dogs I know are crossbred. The only two dogs I know that have needed hip replacements were pet shop/BYB purebreds. Luxating patellas are rife in small crossbred dogs and could be tested and scored.

I don't agree with this at all. Any dog that is going to be bred should be tested. In my breed which is normally 8-10kgs it is not unheard of to have hip scores in the 40s, HD and ED is not size related. Smaller breeds don't show as many visable signs of being affected due to their low body weight but they still need tested

[Roova]

You can see just by reading DOL threads there's plenty of pedigree dogs with health and structural problems so its not just crossbreds affected by lack of health testing in breeding dogs. I think this is worse too because all of these breeders know better where the majority of BYBers wouldn't.

Until every registered breeder health tests when they should, breeds responsibly, ie no test litters, or just when they want their next showdog and also socialises appropriately its a bit like the pot calling the kettle black.

When breeders complain that people say their prices are too high I think some other factors are forgotton. Buying a pet which will be desexed can be pretty expensive outlay of money, think Frenchies at $3500+. There's no physical return of the money (Im not talking about the love and pleasure you'll have from your pet) and in fact more costs will be ahead with feeding, vets and equipment etc.

From a breeders perspective they might invest money and time into their chosen pets but they can have a regular return of money through selling excess puppies. They may also sell older dogs which no longer suit their needs and possibly dogs given back to them for some reason. Every litter can't be a disaster of hand feeding and rushing to the vets or no-one would do it surely?

Going through the DOL list of puppies, there's seems to be plenty of ads with no mention of health testing where other breeders mention all they do. Does that put the non testing ones in the BYB bracket?

[WreckitWhippet]

There's a couple of facebook pages that I ask every BYBer the relevant health questions pertaining to their breed and ask if the parents have been tested. I've asked countless BYBers and not one has said yes, the majority say there's no need to and that they are $500 puppies not show dogs.

The next questions are a) how representative is your sample population? and b) what proportion of BYB puppies from parents that haven't been health tested have heritable diseases that can be tested for? and c) Is this number significantly different from the proportion of pedigree puppies that have heritable diseases that could be tested for? And finally, what is the probability of getting a puppy from a BYB that ends up with a heritable disease that can be tested for?

What if there really was no need??? Can you show there is a need? Do you have data? I can analyse data!

I see advertised on a regular basis a lot of "Staffy " litters, Poodle, Border Collie, Kelpie, Dane, Amstaff, Labrador, Boxer, all of which have conditions that should be tested for.

Ask your mate McGreevy about the stats, he should know all about them.. ohh yeah I forgot, he mixed us all up in the one pot and can't tell you.

CEA, TNS, PRA, L2-HGA & HC, CM and Ataxia , just to name a few are diseases that exist in this country, the ethical breeder does test for them and strives to eliminate them or reduce the indicence where possible. BYBers do not, through their own sheer ignorance they know nothing about disease that affect their breed of choice and even worse in most instances choose to ignore it.

I'll go back and see if I can find you some of the lovely quotes from BYBers regarding diseases in their breed of choice, most get deleted due to the abuse and swearing that the responses contain .

[Crisovar]

Because irresponsible people breed random dogs without health testing or thought for anything. There is a lot of evidence for that. The chances of dogs being fabulous is sheer luck, what effort do they go to to ensure their dogs will be fabulous?

Show it to me? Show me evidence that shows that anyone who is not an ANKC registered breeder that is breeding dogs is doing it in a completely random manner. I find that one in particular very hard to believe. They are at least picking the breeds they want to use most of the time. Show me the evidence that none of them health test. Maybe they have had different experiences, different upbringing, and different beliefs and education. How many random bred dogs does someone have to buy before they run out of luck? How many pedigree dogs? Rhetorical questions.

Of all the byb's I've asked , NONE have health tested their "breeding dogs" None have seen the "need" for it. as to selecting conformation- SOME had no clue what that even meant, while others didn't care.

If a person wanted to breed, but couldn't give a hoot about formal registration (ANKC ect) but still health tested and assessed temperament and Conformation- then they are not byb's in my book- but the kind of breeder who cares about what they produce (though I doubt you'll find many of these) as doing "right" by the dog is going to cut into their profit margin- and they may as well become a registered breeder.

There's a couple of facebook pages that I ask every BYBer the relevant health questions pertaining to their breed and ask if the parents have been tested. I've asked countless BYBers and not one has said yes, the majority say there's no need to and that they are $500 puppies not show dogs.

YES!! No need to health test they are not show dogs, and most don't have a clue what health problems there are or that many of them can be greatly reduced or prevented through proper testing and selection of breeding stock.

[Crisovar]

You can see just by reading DOL threads there's plenty of pedigree dogs with health and structural problems so its not just crossbreds affected by lack of health testing in breeding dogs. I think this is worse too because all of these breeders know better where the majority of BYBers wouldn't.

Until every registered breeder health tests when they should, breeds responsibly, ie no test litters, or just when they want their next showdog and also socialises appropriately its a bit like the pot calling the kettle black.

When breeders complain that people say their prices are too high I think some other factors are forgotton. Buying a pet which will be desexed can be pretty expensive outlay of money, think Frenchies at $3500+. There's no physical return of the money (Im not talking about the love and pleasure you'll have from your pet) and in fact more costs will be ahead with feeding, vets and equipment etc.

From a breeders perspective they might invest money and time into their chosen pets but they can have a regular return of money through selling excess puppies. They may also sell older dogs which no longer suit their needs and possibly dogs given back to them for some reason. Every litter can't be a disaster of hand feeding and rushing to the vets or no-one would do it surely?

Going through the DOL list of puppies, there's seems to be plenty of ads with no mention of health testing where other breeders mention all they do. Does that put the non testing ones in the BYB bracket?

Don't presume a Breeder does not test simply on the wording of an advert. For many it is simply a part of what they do and they see no need to even mention they do it, it is all discussed when contact is made.

[WreckitWhippet]

Because irresponsible people breed random dogs without health testing or thought for anything. There is a lot of evidence for that. The chances of dogs being fabulous is sheer luck, what effort do they go to to ensure their dogs will be fabulous?

Show it to me? Show me evidence that shows that anyone who is not an ANKC registered breeder that is breeding dogs is doing it in a completely random manner. I find that one in particular very hard to believe. They are at least picking the breeds they want to use most of the time. Show me the evidence that none of them health test. Maybe they have had different experiences, different upbringing, and different beliefs and education. How many random bred dogs does someone have to buy before they run out of luck? How many pedigree dogs? Rhetorical questions.

Of all the byb's I've asked , NONE have health tested their "breeding dogs" None have seen the "need" for it. as to selecting conformation- SOME had no clue what that even meant, while others didn't care.

If a person wanted to breed, but couldn't give a hoot about formal registration (ANKC ect) but still health tested and assessed temperament and Conformation- then they are not byb's in my book- but the kind of breeder who cares about what they produce (though I doubt you'll find many of these) as doing "right" by the dog is going to cut into their profit margin- and they may as well become a registered breeder.

There's a couple of facebook pages that I ask every BYBer the relevant health questions pertaining to their breed and ask if the parents have been tested. I've asked countless BYBers and not one has said yes, the majority say there's no need to and that they are $500 puppies not show dogs.

YES!! No need to health test they are not show dogs, and most don't have a clue what health problems there are or that many of them can be greatly reduced or prevented through proper testing and selection of breeding stock.

The one that cranks me off the most is the response " my vet health checked them, so they are fine" ...

[Rebanne]

You can see just by reading DOL threads there's plenty of pedigree dogs with health and structural problems so its not just crossbreds affected by lack of health testing in breeding dogs. I think this is worse too because all of these breeders know better where the majority of BYBers wouldn't.

Until every registered breeder health tests when they should, breeds responsibly, ie no test litters, or just when they want their next showdog and also socialises appropriately its a bit like the pot calling the kettle black.

When breeders complain that people say their prices are too high I think some other factors are forgotton. Buying a pet which will be desexed can be pretty expensive outlay of money, think Frenchies at $3500+. There's no physical return of the money (Im not talking about the love and pleasure you'll have from your pet) and in fact more costs will be ahead with feeding, vets and equipment etc.

From a breeders perspective they might invest money and time into their chosen pets but they can have a regular return of money through selling excess puppies. They may also sell older dogs which no longer suit their needs and possibly dogs given back to them for some reason. Every litter can't be a disaster of hand feeding and rushing to the vets or no-one would do it surely?

Going through the DOL list of puppies, there's seems to be plenty of ads with no mention of health testing where other breeders mention all they do. Does that put the non testing ones in the BYB bracket?

so what is it? Breed only to replace a show dog or breed often enough to have a regular income?

[BoxerB]

Because irresponsible people breed random dogs without health testing or thought for anything. There is a lot of evidence for that. The chances of dogs being fabulous is sheer luck, what effort do they go to to ensure their dogs will be fabulous?

Show it to me? Show me evidence that shows that anyone who is not an ANKC registered breeder that is breeding dogs is doing it in a completely random manner. I find that one in particular very hard to believe. They are at least picking the breeds they want to use most of the time. Show me the evidence that none of them health test. Maybe they have had different experiences, different upbringing, and different beliefs and education. How many random bred dogs does someone have to buy before they run out of luck? How many pedigree dogs? Rhetorical questions.

Of all the byb's I've asked , NONE have health tested their "breeding dogs" None have seen the "need" for it. as to selecting conformation- SOME had no clue what that even meant, while others didn't care.

If a person wanted to breed, but couldn't give a hoot about formal registration (ANKC ect) but still health tested and assessed temperament and Conformation- then they are not byb's in my book- but the kind of breeder who cares about what they produce (though I doubt you'll find many of these) as doing "right" by the dog is going to cut into their profit margin- and they may as well become a registered breeder.

There's a couple of facebook pages that I ask every BYBer the relevant health questions pertaining to their breed and ask if the parents have been tested. I've asked countless BYBers and not one has said yes, the majority say there's no need to and that they are $500 puppies not show dogs.

YES!! No need to health test they are not show dogs, and most don't have a clue what health problems there are or that many of them can be greatly reduced or prevented through proper testing and selection of breeding stock.

The one that cranks me off the most is the response " my vet health checked them, so they are fine" ...

Which is the exact response i got from a "well respected" and highly known breeder!!

And a i quote " we have never been asked to provide health test results, you can speak to our vet of 14 yrs"

[MonElite]

If I go to a hairdresser to have my hair coloured I expect to pay for the hair dye AND the service that comes with it, not just the hair dye.

How is buing a puppy different?

What are you charging per hour for your time?

I don't think I could ever afford a puppy from someone who charges for the time they spend on them as well as covering inputs and overheads. The point is not to break even or make a profit, right? Then it's different to hairdressing.

Are you talking about breaking even on the particular litter or breaking even on the breeding overal?

Because when its on the breeding overal I have some pretty big expences.........

Larger property than standard so that dogs would have more room to run, far away from where I work, so lots of fuel and time to get to work on daily basis.

Bigger car than what I'd have if I had one dog as a pet.

Show and trial entries and travel to and from them so that my breeding dogs can have some titles to their names.

Number of crates, dog beds, training equipement, seminar attendance, books, DVDs, dog toys, LOTS and LOTS of dog food.

Now - I had a bitch returned to me from one of the previous litters - she doesnt get on with the others. So I had to build a fence to keep her separated, thats $2000.

She has a contact alery to something in my grass , maybe wondering dew. That is vet visits, spray of all sorts of weeds in the garden.

None of that would be done if I never bred her in the first place.

I could go on and on on what expences I incur, and trust me, there is no breaking even on all of that. Thats not counting my time AT ALL.

Yes the point of breeding is to produce dogs that are a continuous improvement of the breed, not to make money. But until I win lotto and can afford all of the things I want for my dogs, I will be charging for puppies. And because I probably provide more service with the puppy than most breeders, I will be charging premium prices.

[MonElite]

^ There's plenty of other stuff pups can be introduced to in the household.

Blenders, vacuum cleaners, brooms, toilets flushing. Anything noisy and scary.

They can get used to being handled all over and accept grooming.

Get used to seeing people wearing different outfits, flapping raincoat etc.

And being introduced to different surfaces, grass, dirt, floorboard- whatever the breeder has handy really.

They don't have to be taken outside the home to be introduced to a whole bunch of things.

Esky's breeder takes the pups out in the car when she does the school run. They don't go out and socialise or anything, but still get to see plenty and get used to travelling. Not sure if it's a coincidence or not, but Esky's a perfect traveller, I am really thankful for breeders that take the time to introduce pups to as much of the world as they can while they're in their care :)

I do all that.

I thought that this part of my advertisement covers it

Our puppies are brought up in a family environment, they're extensivelly socialised with a variety of people, children, taken for car rides and fed a natural diet.

Edited March 5, 2013 by MonElite

[BlackJaq]

When breeders complain that people say their prices are too high I think some other factors are forgotton. Buying a pet which will be desexed can be pretty expensive outlay of money, think Frenchies at $3500+. There's no physical return of the money (Im not talking about the love and pleasure you'll have from your pet) and in fact more costs will be ahead with feeding, vets and equipment etc.

From a breeders perspective they might invest money and time into their chosen pets but they can have a regular return of money through selling excess puppies. They may also sell older dogs which no longer suit their needs and possibly dogs given back to them for some reason. Every litter can't be a disaster of hand feeding and rushing to the vets or no-one would do it surely?

I don't think people should be expecting to get a return from their pet??

It is a one off investment, as you said + plus running costs thereafter. When was the last time your car or furniture gave birth to a litter for you to sell on? They can also require maintenance, just like a pet. Yet nobody would tell the retailer to charge less because you will not see a return from your couch??

By all means, don't buy a luxury "item", like a $3500 Frenchie or a $3500 couch if you do not want to pay that price or cannot afford it but don't expect people to drop their prices because you won't be making money off them :p

Sorry but I find this argument extremely bizarre

Edited March 5, 2013 by BlackJaq