Fox Rescue

[Lhok]

Foxes can make great pets. I have had one myself. However the fox that they said couldn't be a indoor pet should be made to live in a roofed pen with weld mesh that goes into the concrete floor. That's the only way you are going to keep a fox contained. They are incredible climbers and will hunt and kill animals as large as a cat. If the person next door to you has birds of any kind you can be sure that a fox is going to find that incredibly tempting. Males smell more then females and have no problems stinking up the place marking, Basil was a boy and he did this all over the place, removing the anal sacs so they don't smell is abhorrent and shouldn't be done and unless things have change (and they might have considers it's been years since I owned a fox) no vet would treat a fox let alone desex and vaccinate.

Another thing I remember is that Basil was more active of a night then during the day so that would have to be taken into consideration of anyone wanting one. After owning Basil and as much as I love foxes they shouldn't be pets, there are some that take well to living with humans but overall if the fox wasn't selectively bred like the silver foxes from the fur farm in Russia I wouldn't ever have another.

--Lhok

[WoofnHoof]

I find many of the objections puzzling, would those who are against this kind of thing also against something like Brumby rescue? It's a very similar scenario, equids are an introduced species, are amenable to taming despite many generations of wild living, and are classed as an introduced pest with the potential to be harmful to the environment if not contained. The only difference I can see is a cultural bias, people can have cultural bias if they want to but don't mistake it for anything other than what it is.

Some people like brumbies and want to own one, some people feel they have something to offer as a riding horse or pet that domestic breeds don't have. Ultimately all that matters to me is that the animal is appropriately contained and it's welfare is attended to, anything else is largely irrelevant. Given that generations of sustained culling hasn't saved the environment or farmer's livelihoods from feral foxes the chances a bit of chest beating over pet foxes is going to achieve anything useful is very slim indeed. :laugh:

[lisa ann]

I can see that they're attractive but having lost 21 of 22 chickens in one night to foxes I hate the bastards. They're welcome to come down here and get as many of the feral little bastards as they like as long as they keep them a long bloody way from me. I'd hazard a guess that most people who have lived rurally would feel exactly the same.

Yup I'm with you .....we have a farm and having seen half chewed faces of new born lambs and ewes who have dropped to give birth having been half chewed to death we wouldn't want them around here. It's heart breaking seeing lambs still alive with half their face missing.... And totally different from brumby rescue??!!!!!!!

[BlackJaq]

I would like to point out that brumbies are nothing like foxes. They are a domestic animal that has become feral, not a wild animal that is called "feral" because it has been introduced and let go here. Basically brumbies are still just domestic horses who grew up without human contact. I find this a completely different scenario.

If instead of brumbies an example of "feral" zebras in Australia was brought it would be a more suitable comparison in my opinion, since zebras are wild animals just like foxes. However, to my knowledge, there are no "wild" equides such as zebras present in Australia in a feral population.

Edited February 24, 2013 by BlackJaq

[Christina]

Out around here its nothing for them to kill one lamb for every one born!

They rehome to families that can contain them.

I'm probably the cause of more lamb deaths than they would be.

How true. Almost every lamb born is killed & eaten by humans eventually. How is our killing more humane & justified.

[WoofnHoof]

Actually no brumbies aren't just domestic horses that grew up without human contact, they have had many generations of natural selection pressures which has altered them significantly from domestic breeds in many ways. It's a perfectly legitimate comparison, they are considered pests and are culled on environmental and agricultural grounds, and they are a species which is amenable to taming and domestication.

[lisa ann]

Out around here its nothing for them to kill one lamb for every one born!

They rehome to families that can contain them.

I'm probably the cause of more lamb deaths than they would be.

How true. Almost every lamb born is killed & eaten by humans eventually. How is our killing more humane & justified.

Because they are not left half chewed and still alive suffering in the paddock.

[WoofnHoof]

Out around here its nothing for them to kill one lamb for every one born!

They rehome to families that can contain them.

I'm probably the cause of more lamb deaths than they would be.

How true. Almost every lamb born is killed & eaten by humans eventually. How is our killing more humane & justified.

Because they are not left half chewed and still alive suffering in the paddock.

Stupid foxes, why don't they just grow opposable thumbs and then they can use a captive bolt or knife? I'm sure they are just being deliberately cruel.

[Dame Aussie]

Out around here its nothing for them to kill one lamb for every one born!

They rehome to families that can contain them.

I'm probably the cause of more lamb deaths than they would be.

How true. Almost every lamb born is killed & eaten by humans eventually. How is our killing more humane & justified.

Because they are not left half chewed and still alive suffering in the paddock.

You think a slaughterhouse is any nicer?

[yellowgirl]

There are things on their website which cause me to doubt this.

Here is a description of a fox they were advertising for sale. It doesn't particularly sound like an animal that is friendly, but rather one that will just tolerate humans.

Ally loves the outdoors and would not be suitable as an indoor pet. ...Temperament: Ally is cautious around humans he doesn't know but not at all aggressive and has made significant progress in the past month. He can be held and petted by his carers and loves playing with toys and accepting treats from hands. Ally is not keen on baths and has not spent any time on a leash at this stage. He is happy wearing collars and easy to handle when it comes to taking him to and from his pen. Overall Ally is a very sweet fox and in time we believe with a lot of TLC Ally could become a loving member of any family.

And there is this life for foxes who are unable to tolerate people.

*Less sociable foxes who do not meet behaviour requirements for normal-adoption will stay with a suitable foster carer until an appropriate forever home can be found that understands their special needs. Fox Rescue Sydney understands that not all foxes are suited to life as a house pet and that some foxes may be happiest in an outdoor run with minimal human interaction.

What is it that makes us want to do this, to keep a wild animal in a cage for the rest of its life because we humans think it's cute and we want to keep it? Why do we have this need to own and possess creatures that weren't designed to be kept in captivity? For me, the bolded bit is the saddest part. I hardly think that living a life like that is going to make the fox 'happiest'.

Edited February 24, 2013 by yellowgirl

[lisa ann]

Out around here its nothing for them to kill one lamb for every one born!

They rehome to families that can contain them.

I'm probably the cause of more lamb deaths than they would be.

How true. Almost every lamb born is killed & eaten by humans eventually. How is our killing more humane & justified.

Because they are not left half chewed and still alive suffering in the paddock.

You think a slaughterhouse is any nicer?

It take it you don't eat meat or do you think the stuff at the shop magically appears from thin air!!!

[lisa ann]

Out around here its nothing for them to kill one lamb for every one born!

They rehome to families that can contain them.

I'm probably the cause of more lamb deaths than they would be.

How true. Almost every lamb born is killed & eaten by humans eventually. How is our killing more humane & justified.

Because they are not left half chewed and still alive suffering in the paddock.

You think a slaughterhouse is any nicer?

Yes, and the abattoir our animals go to is a hell of a lot more humane than having 10 lambs/ewes half eaten still alive, laying in the paddock. my husband spend thousands of dollars and hours and hours of time ensuring that his animals are well looked after and in good condition so when he see those lambs and ewes when he goes around checking it is distressing for him. When you have seen what they do to them you might have a different view, because they don't just kill one and eat it the attack as many as they can.

[BlackJaq]

How true. Almost every lamb born is killed & eaten by humans eventually. How is our killing more humane & justified.

You have obviously never seen stock killed by fox vs. the inside of a real slaughterhouse/home killed lamb. There is a huge differnence, trust me.

And I do not believe brumbies are in any way "wild", they are simply feral domestic horses. Even ones that have lived in the wild for years can still be successfully tamed and broken in, just liek the mustangs in the Us who have probably been feral even longer. If somebody has a bunch of horses down the back for 50 years and never looks at them and lets them breed willy nilly and starve to death, they do not magically become wild either and I do know a guy with a mob of horses like this and yes, they are exactly like any other horse, just unhandled. Their foals, if raised tame, become just like any other horse, same as brumbies.

Edited February 24, 2013 by BlackJaq

[Dame Aussie]

Out around here its nothing for them to kill one lamb for every one born!

They rehome to families that can contain them.

I'm probably the cause of more lamb deaths than they would be.

How true. Almost every lamb born is killed & eaten by humans eventually. How is our killing more humane & justified.

Because they are not left half chewed and still alive suffering in the paddock.

You think a slaughterhouse is any nicer?

It take it you don't eat meat or do you think the stuff at the shop magically appears from thin air!!!

I don't eat any animal products.

[*kirty*]

Really? I think several generations living feral = wild. Have you ever seen a feral cat? A wild dog? Doesn't take long for a domestic animal to revert to its natural state. I do think horses are easier to tame because they are prey animals.

[Trisven13]

I've read all of this thread - I hate foxes with a passion and have made that obvious - BUT I have also listened to what Kirty (specifically) has had to say and I have to be honest I can see, to a degree, what she is talking about.

Personally I would hate to see foxes ever owned as pets and I cheer when I see them dead on the side of the road but I have many friends who feel the same way about snakes and I really like snakes and have owned them.

I don't know where I stand to be honest - I support the right people owning them in a safe and contained environment I suppose and yet I still really, really hate the idea of it because I think that they're totally foul, repulsive little killers.

Having lived in suburbia for 41 years of my life living in suburbia (both Sydney & rural suburbia) and then 3 years living rurally I think it is truly fair to say that your viewpoint on foxes really changes when you see what they do. They are vicious killers - they left half of my beautiful named chooks in my yard and others dragged under fences - we found pieces of them for days afterwards. I don't own a gun but if I ever saw another on my property I would want nothing more than to kill it. Logically I understand what Kirty says but emotionally (and it is a visceral emotion) the whole idea just makes me very, very angry.

ETA I hope that some of the fox lovers and/or supporters can see why they cause such extreme reactions or can at least understand that they too might feel those when greeted by the things some of us have seen. I hate wild dogs with just as much passion.

Edited February 24, 2013 by Trisven13

[Dame Aussie]

Were talking about a wild carnivore, people make it sound like foxes hunt out of malice and are vicious by choice??

Edited February 24, 2013 by Aussie3

[Trisven13]

Were talking about a wild carnivore, people make it sound like foxes hunt out of malice and are vicious by choice??

When you see what they do I don't see how you can look at it any other way. If they had taken all of the chooks then I would have been gutted but recognised that they needed to eat. When they leave them behind in pieces or still alive and suffering you just want to kill the little F*%ers.

ETA - I also wish the GSD who visits next door never visited as he has killed one of my chooks AND I have a completely different view of my Cornish Rex since he killed 6 baby chickens. I get that animals kill to eat (and for pleasure - endorphine release) BUT I can't stand it when they kill something I love.

Edited February 24, 2013 by Trisven13

[Lhok]

I think the one problem I have with them living in suburbia is that you can't 100% guarantee that they can't escape their enclosure if the neighbours have birds and they decide to go and check them out I love foxes for their adaptive nature but one wrong/forgetful move/moment and if they are keen they are gone. I honestly don't think tame or not that a fox can resist captive birds.

--Lhok

Edited February 24, 2013 by Lhok

[WoofnHoof]

How true. Almost every lamb born is killed & eaten by humans eventually. How is our killing more humane & justified.

You have obviously never seen stock killed by fox vs. the inside of a real slaughterhouse/home killed lamb. There is a huge differnence, trust me.

And I do not believe brumbies are in any way "wild", they are simply feral domestic horses. Even ones that have lived in the wild for years can still be successfully tamed and broken in, just liek the mustangs in the Us who have probably been feral even longer. If somebody has a bunch of horses down the back for 50 years and never looks at them and lets them breed willy nilly and starve to death, they do not magically become wild either and I do know a guy with a mob of horses like this and yes, they are exactly like any other horse, just unhandled. Their foals, if raised tame, become just like any other horse, same as brumbies.

Do you understand the difference between natural selection and artificial selection? It's a pretty important difference and fairly relevant to the discussion. Generations of breeding under natural selection does revert a species to a wild type, it doesn't happen by magic it's simple genetics and selection pressures.

As for the way foxes hunt they hunt the way many carnivores do, take down as much as possible and get it back to the den, the reason people tend to find dead and dying animals is because the predator has been disturbed before they could take everything back. Death in nature is rarely pretty or clinical.