Fox Rescue

[tdierikx]

While I think it would be cool to own a fox, I don't think the average pet owner can be counted on to be 100% responsible about it.

We already have way too many people who own cats that believe that it is their natural "right" to roam the neighbourhood and do what cats do... and we have laws and regulations specifically regarding cat ownership that are being ignored on a daily basis. How can we be sure that someone owning a fox would follow the "suggestions" of those adopting them out to the public?

To own most exotic pets one needs to have a license - and I believe that should be true for fox ownership also. Gaining a license would involve training and learning all about the needs and instincts of the fox, and how to keep them safely in a dommestic setting.

What worries me a lot is how cheap these pet foxes are being sold for - $250 to $350 - well within the means of pretty much anyone who wants one.

T.

[WoofnHoof]

I agree with licensing absolutely, mind you I think all pet owners should be licensed anyway :) With most of these arguments you could say the same thing about huskies, they are a disaster in the wrong hands too and not for the average owner. As the law currently stands any monkey can go out and buy a couple of huskies and breed them so yeah I'm slightly less fussed about a rescue selling desexed foxes with what appears to be full disclosure.

[*kirty*]

Yep, definitely agree that a permit would be the way to go.

Trish, I completely understand why people hate foxes. I would hate any animal that killed my pets. But I can seperate the two - eg I have pet rats which I love, but I HATE the wild rats that come over from next door and have no problem trapping them.

ETA: I also think that the reason foxes will kill a dozen chooks but only eat one, or attack multiple lambs is that they are easy prey. In nature, a predator doesn't come across captive prey. They have to work for it - find it, chase it down, then kill it. But here they come across a paddock full of ewes all lambing at the same time. Or a pen full of chooks with no escape. They kill because they can, and their instincts say they should. Most dogs or cats would do the same given the opportunity.

Edited February 25, 2013 by *kirty*

[Trisven13]

Most dogs or cats would do the same given the opportunity.

Thankfully mine don't. One of my Fauves managed to get out of the house one day when I was out. I came home to find her in the chook run with the young bantams - all alive and simply looking confused.

[WoofnHoof]

My husky will go anything that looks like prey, chooks, lambs etc, containment is crucial.

[Akayla]

Foxes "stash" food. They kill as much as absolutely possible then hide it in as many places. This way they have food for the winter. Its actually quite clever.

Also what is amazing about the russian foxes as they started changing almost immediately. Not after years of work. Within 3 generations there were sometimes major changes.

I actually think there may be merit to this. A) public are more likely to hand in the cute babies if they have a chance. B) even if a desexed animal escapes it could still have a positive effect. Some experiments with feral cats overseas has shown that desexing a tom and letting him return to the wild can reduce numbers as he will still stop other males from mating with the females in his teritory.

Mind you Id be pretty angry if they were selling them entire. Nor do I think a permit is a bad idea.

[Loving my Oldies]

I find it very difficult to understand when people described foxes as being sly, vicious, evil - whatever other words are used.

Foxes are simply animals who have learned to kill in a certain way which equates to their size, the habitat in which the live, their particular metabolism, etc. They don't lie in the beds, thinking about how best to kill another creature in a way that gives the greatest pain or the greatest sorrow to a human who has their chooks or rabbits or other pets killed by foxes. An animal kills to eat. However, humankind plots to kill for the "fun" of it.

These types of descriptions are very anthropomorphic and delivered by people who would probably scorn those who call their dogs their children or dress them up in fancy clothes or find out the food they love the most so they can treat them.

(Which reminds me of a friend who went outside her house one day - luckily when her child was at school - to find pieces of their pet rabbit all over the back yard courtesy of a Golden Retriever. Who would call the GR evil? And another who came home to find her cat dead courtesy of her dogs. Who would call them evil?)

How many of the people who think the only good fox is a dead one own cats, I wonder contained or otherwise. Cats are incredibly destructive to all sorts of wildlife and have probably done more damage to wildlife and, if we want to be totally honest, consider the way a cat will "play" with its victim, sometime for hours.

I am desperately sorry and sad for those who have lost any of their own chooks and loved pets to foxes. I can understand the hatred. To come home and find a much loved pet killed is a horror to live with and one I have experienced.

That said, foxes don't belong in Australia, our native wildlife is too susceptible and unable to compete and I certainly don't believe they should be deliberately bred and kept as pets. For sure if kittens are found they should be humanely destroyed or kept as pets only by people who are experienced, committed and knowledgable as to their needs and willing to keep them safely confinded.

[_PL_]

Reminds me of this little article here from a few years ago. Exotics are in Australia like it or not. They just need to be scrupulously managed.

Don't make pet exotics suffer because people are too scared to take them to the vet for help. A bit like the BSL people have mentioned. Pets are pets, ferals are ferals. Restricted breeds and wild animals are being kept in the community and there isn't much anyone can do about it except make sure they are well cared for and tightly controlled. Banning things drives them underground.

[Greytmate]

Reminds me of this little article here from a few years ago. Exotics are in Australia like it or not. They just need to be scrupulously managed.

Don't make pet exotics suffer because people are too scared to take them to the vet for help. A bit like the BSL people have mentioned. Pets are pets, ferals are ferals. Restricted breeds and wild animals are being kept in the community and there isn't much anyone can do about it except make sure they are well cared for and tightly controlled. Banning things drives them underground.

How do we know that keeping a wild animal in a suburban backyard enclosure is caring well for it? How do we know it is not suffering greatly by being confined near humans?

Tight control and scrupulous management of feral and wild animals is something that is best determined by experts on these animals, people with suitable qualifications. These rescue people are pushing the line that "with just the right amount of patience and TLC foxes can make a loving addition to any family." That doesn't sound like scrupulous management to me, it sounds exactly like selling pets using very emotive sales tactics.

[_PL_]

Reminds me of this little article here from a few years ago. Exotics are in Australia like it or not. They just need to be scrupulously managed.

Don't make pet exotics suffer because people are too scared to take them to the vet for help. A bit like the BSL people have mentioned. Pets are pets, ferals are ferals. Restricted breeds and wild animals are being kept in the community and there isn't much anyone can do about it except make sure they are well cared for and tightly controlled. Banning things drives them underground.

How do we know that keeping a wild animal in a suburban backyard enclosure is caring well for it? How do we know it is not suffering greatly by being confined near humans?

Tight control and scrupulous management of feral and wild animals is something that is best determined by experts on these animals, people with suitable qualifications. These rescue people are pushing the line that "with just the right amount of patience and TLC foxes can make a loving addition to any family." That doesn't sound like scrupulous management to me, it sounds exactly like selling pets using very emotive sales tactics.

I don't disagree with you that without the experts it's almost impossible to estimate if animals who hate the confinement aren't suffering. But as I stated before in another post, the reptile people began a husbandry society (with experts) recognised by the flora and fauna regulations. You can't begin your legal reptile keeping without being a member because those pets have very specific needs.

The methods of rehoming...ok well it's not the way I do it for dogs so can't comment but I don't use the ethos of e.g. love fixes all.

And having seen feral cats miserable and confined in an attempt to tame them, yes some individual animals shouldn't be made to live with humans. However anyone can confine a dog or cat because they are 'domesticated'.

My point was, hidden and illegally kept pets can suffer when blanket bans exist. That is all. :) No comment on the rescuing, taming or rehoming of wild animals and openly admit I don't have the knowledge. I just believe that keeping track of who sells, breeds or keeps them would be effective.

[Greytmate]

I don't disagree with you that without the experts it's almost impossible to estimate if animals who hate the confinement aren't suffering.

It is not almost impossible, it's something that can be measured in a controlled experiment by determining levels of cortisol and making other observations. This area of knowledge is the reason why zoos have changed so radically over the last few decades.

[_PL_]

I don't disagree with you that without the experts it's almost impossible to estimate if animals who hate the confinement aren't suffering.

It is not almost impossible, it's something that can be measured in a controlled experiment by determining levels of cortisol and making other observations. This area of knowledge is the reason why zoos have changed so radically over the last few decades.

Indeed. Which is why I said 'without the experts'. :)

[Trisven13]

Who would call the GR evil? And another who came home to find her cat dead courtesy of her dogs. Who would call them evil?

I couldn't look at my cat when he killed 6 day-old chickens. I'm not as fond of him as I was and I don't trust him at all. I despise the GSD who visits next door and killed one of my chooks. Its even easier to hate foxes.

[melzawelza]

Reminds me of this little article here from a few years ago. Exotics are in Australia like it or not. They just need to be scrupulously managed.

Don't make pet exotics suffer because people are too scared to take them to the vet for help. A bit like the BSL people have mentioned. Pets are pets, ferals are ferals. Restricted breeds and wild animals are being kept in the community and there isn't much anyone can do about it except make sure they are well cared for and tightly controlled. Banning things drives them underground.

I'm hoping I'm missing something but did you just compare restricted breeds to wild animals and say they need to be 'tightly controlled' like wild animals do?

[Loving my Oldies]

Who would call the GR evil? And another who came home to find her cat dead courtesy of her dogs. Who would call them evil?

I couldn't look at my cat when he killed 6 day-old chickens. I'm not as fond of him as I was and I don't trust him at all. I despise the GSD who visits next door and killed one of my chooks. Its even easier to hate foxes.

Yes, I totally understand and would feel the same, but do you think your cat is evil or the GSD evil?

[_PL_]

Reminds me of this little article here from a few years ago. Exotics are in Australia like it or not. They just need to be scrupulously managed.

Don't make pet exotics suffer because people are too scared to take them to the vet for help. A bit like the BSL people have mentioned. Pets are pets, ferals are ferals. Restricted breeds and wild animals are being kept in the community and there isn't much anyone can do about it except make sure they are well cared for and tightly controlled. Banning things drives them underground.

I'm hoping I'm missing something but did you just compare restricted breeds to wild animals and say they need to be 'tightly controlled' like wild animals do?

LOL, no you're reading too much into it and I did mix the metaphor. I mean BSL has been mentioned here already and just like restricted breeds it would be awful if people own a pet they are afraid for others to see, or in particular afraid to take to the vet (as I gather in VIC they were calling for vets to report pit bulls presented to them for treatment ). Victoria has not only outlawed foxes as pets but also pit bulls? Thats my only comparison here.

'Tightly controlled' refers to the fact that people can and do own exotic pets, and that IMHO acknowledging them with permits gives the owners the ability to keep them without being criminals, and is more helpful for the animals themselves. They are already here, in people's homes. Doesn't mean I want one or want new species imported or want to rescue one or agree with breeding them for a pet market- i.e. the squirrels mentioned in the article link. I want all pets to have access to healthcare and expertise not be hidden away by bans.

Edited February 26, 2013 by Powerlegs

[Trisven13]

Who would call the GR evil? And another who came home to find her cat dead courtesy of her dogs. Who would call them evil?

I couldn't look at my cat when he killed 6 day-old chickens. I'm not as fond of him as I was and I don't trust him at all. I despise the GSD who visits next door and killed one of my chooks. Its even easier to hate foxes.

Yes, I totally understand and would feel the same, but do you think your cat is evil or the GSD evil?

No but I've also never said that foxes are evil - I think they're feral little bastards who I am happy to see dead on the side of the road. I would be very, very happy to know that (for whatever reason) the GSD never visited my neighbours again and, to be honest, really, really don't like the cat much anymore. Thankfully for him the rest of the family still like him.

[WoofnHoof]

Dear lord people must think the natural world is a snuggly cuddly place if they can't handle a predator species killing a prey species without resorting to illogical anthropomorphic expressions.

[~Anne~]

Who would call the GR evil? And another who came home to find her cat dead courtesy of her dogs. Who would call them evil?

I couldn't look at my cat when he killed 6 day-old chickens. I'm not as fond of him as I was and I don't trust him at all. I despise the GSD who visits next door and killed one of my chooks. Its even easier to hate foxes.

Yes, I totally understand and would feel the same, but do you think your cat is evil or the GSD evil?

Judging by the horns sticking out from the sides of their heads they are!

[Her Majesty Dogmad]

Who would call the GR evil? And another who came home to find her cat dead courtesy of her dogs. Who would call them evil?

I couldn't look at my cat when he killed 6 day-old chickens. I'm not as fond of him as I was and I don't trust him at all. I despise the GSD who visits next door and killed one of my chooks. Its even easier to hate foxes.

Sorry but cats kill birds and mice. In Australia they kill lots of other things too such as lizards, possums and so on. It's the normal, predatory behaviour of a cat. If we don't like the natural behaviour of our pets then we shouldn't have them OR we stop their natural behaviour by preventing access to the things they will kill. How did the cat get to the 6 day old chickens?

My first Italian Greyhound killed my budgie, years ago. I didn't like him for two days or so but it was entirely my fault as I'd left the cage door open. And believe me, I cried for weeks but it wasn't the dog's fault and I still loved him. If I hadn't then I'd have had to rehome him but that would have been my issue, not seeing what I had done wrong and placing the blame entirely on him for behaving like a normal dog.

As for the neighbour's dog killing your animals perhaps the neighbour's letting the dog wander which is awful and who knows what else the dog might do? It's the neighbour's fault though, not the dog's.

As a rescuer I'm sick to the back teeth of getting calls from people who want to get rid of their dogs because they've killed some chickens. Normally, the scenario is that the owner's had the dog for years and then decided to go all free range and also that the dog and the chickens should live happily, side by side - just like that.

Recently a colleague asked me about mixing her Dachshund with chickens - I said no, it will kill them. What if I bring him up with the chickens from puppyhood she said. I said it could be OK but I doubt it. Guess what? He's still a puppy and he killed all the chickens so now the chickens have their own enclosure.

Edited February 26, 2013 by dogmad