Fox Rescue

[Polecatty]

Calling for a ban on keeping a feral pest, is hardly nasty and I'm surprised that it hadn't been made the law a long time ago.

No, it is quite nasty and your tone is making you come across as being quite petty and unpleasant. There is no evidence that the activities of this rescue group have impacted negatively upon landowners or native animals which are the key issues of the fox population in Australia, and no evidence that they are not doing their very best to ensure that the foxes are placed responsibly.

No, wreckit has been very reasonable. She has explained her objections and is willing to act on them. She doesn't deserve to be attacked personally for this.

There is no evidence that selling foxes as pets in suburbia will not lead to problems. Many have been spoken about here. Who cares how hard they try to do their best, they really do sound very misguided to me. Let them prove that they have the credentials to do this and that they understand the bigger picture. They need to provide the evidence that what they are doing is worthwhile, they should not expect the public to blindly accept whatever they say, and they should expect some opposition from those who are unconvinced.

No, Wreckit has not been very reasonable about this. Wreckit made incorrect assumptions about the manner in which the rescue operates and then made statements without taking the time to ensure they were actually factual. Neither reasonable, logical or decent behaviour.

If people wish to oppose what they are doing then that is fine, however making incorrect statements without checking facts is intellectually dishonest at best. As is talking about doing all that one can to get them shut down with little opposition- the issue deserves a full and honest examination, not people whinging to The Shooters and Fishers Party.

Edited February 24, 2013 by Polecatty

[*kirty*]

So now I'm a tree-hugging hippy, just because I diasgree with you??

There is no evidence that selling foxes to people in suburbia WILL cause problems either. Just that some people don't like the idea. Well guess what - some people think that 'dangerous dog breeds' shouldn't be kept as pets either.

[Dame Aussie]

Can't be bothered :laugh:

Edited February 23, 2013 by Aussie3

[HazyWal]

And just to clarify, that article is about someone who ADOPTED a fox, not the founder of the organisation. The ADOPTER is 23, not the person who runs the shelter.

Sorry to hear about your Loxy, Kirty. I don't want to get involved, as I don't have a major problem with it if they are desexed and rehomed responsibly.

But I will add that even if the founder of the organisation was 23 that shouldn't matter! I am only 23, have been around animals my entire life, have been involved in rescue for 5 years, including running a rescue for the last 2 years. I have a Bachelor of Animal Science Honours, specialising in companion animal welfare and management and a graduate diploma, plus numerous courses. You would be surprised what the younger generation is capable of, 90% of our rescue organisation are under 25. :)

...and thank God for that Emma. I'm not getting involved either as I can see both sides of the argument but it's great to see the younger generation passionate about rescue.

[redangel]

Well to add to the debate rabbits are an introduced pest as well. It is illegal to keep a rabbit as a pet in some states. Yet bunnies are popular kids pets. Im sure people out there disagree with the keeping of these furry ferals as well. Does that mean WIW is going to action the DPI to move to make keeping a bunny out of the reach of kids? I mean if youve ever been on the receiving end of a bunny thats ticked...the wounds are painful.

Ive seen ferrets in open land that have escaped from keep. They are quite efficient killers.

Dont get me started on cats...if it cant be contained well dont keep it! They poop pee & kill wildlife indiscriminately & well owners of these animals will defend their rights as a companion animal...and their rights an animal allowed to roam.

All of the above have potential to cause issues yet WIW doesnt seem so upset. The potential is that when not managed properly domestically kept animals are problematic.

I see more issue with the howling undesexed roaming cats than a desexed contained fox living next door. My only concern is that it becomes a fad to gain ownership of one.

Are dingoes not kept by people as pets under strict guidelines??? Or does WIW against that as well.

Hard to please everyone...cant wear a fox coat, cant keep them as pets, where on earth does a fox find a place in the world?? It is a living creature, not unlike the rabbit....just because it isnt sporting a long set of ears & a small fluffy tail or has striking markings, whiskers and purrs...makes it less of a animal.

[~Anne~]

Reasonable? Bullocks.

Greytmate, I would consider your argument reasonable, in the beginning at any rate.. I see the other as obtuse and belligerent. There is no reason or logic, just the need to feel some hyped up sense of power by cutting others down.

Edited February 23, 2013 by ~Anne~

[WreckitWhippet]

These people are not the only people in NSW claiming to "rescue" and rehome Foxes. There are others doing it, who think it's ok to "rescue" and rehome without first desexing them. They are happy to place them on "farms".

There's no regulation for the keeping of Foxes in NSW, I suppose it's probably never crossed the minds of the power that be, that people would actually consider keeping one in suburbia as a pet. I'm entitled to my opinion, just as everyone else is and personally I think that it should be made illegal to keep one and I will push for this to happen and it's highly likely that it will occur

Edited February 23, 2013 by WreckitWhippet

[Polecatty]

Calling for a ban on keeping a feral pest, is hardly nasty and I'm surprised that it hadn't been made the law a long time ago.

No, it is quite nasty and your tone is making you come across as being quite petty and unpleasant. There is no evidence that the activities of this rescue group have impacted negatively upon landowners or native animals which are the key issues of the fox population in Australia, and no evidence that they are not doing their very best to ensure that the foxes are placed responsibly.

You have made unfounded accusations regarding the operation of this rescue by claiming that they do no vet work prior to sale- a clearly baseless and unjust accusation given that they state clearly on their website that they do indeed have their animals vetted. Very common mudslinging behaviour.

They shouldn't be "placing" a feral animal full stop.

They are not a "pet" , they are a wild animal and a pest at that. There is no legislation in place for the keeping of a Fox, they do not fall under the Companion Animals Act, it's pretty much a free for all, there is nothing in place to ensure they are properly cared for or managed.

I'm still shaking my head that some tree hugging hippies think that it's acceptable to "rescue" and rehome a pest.

I have honestly never been called a tree hugging hippie in my entire life- thanks for the good laugh. Chances are I have, er, dispatched more pest animals than most posters in this thread.

If the issue of legislation regarding their care and management is your beef then steps could be taken to address that specifically. But no- let's just call for it to be banned altogether.

[redangel]

There are people who think its ok to "rescue" any animal and rehome without desexing. Oh and there are people who are happy to place troubled/destructive/aggressive domestic dogs to "farms". You dont need a licence to keep bunnies or ferrets yet they are pets that come with responsibility re husbandry & containment. Id imagine there is a database for the keeping of foxes as a pet, and any illegally kept animal would be subject to seizure.

The answer is if we always look to the lowest denominator in society we are sure to find issue with any form of animal ownership. Dog & cat ownership by its popularity would definitely be under risk!

Yes indeed WIW you are entitled to your opinion.

[Polecatty]

These people are not the only people in NSW claiming to "rescue" and rehome Foxes. There are others doing it, who think it's ok to "rescue" and rehome without first desexing them. They are happy to place them on "farms".

There's no regulation for the keeping of Foxes in NSW, I suppose it's probably never crossed the minds of the power that be, that people would actually consider keeping one in suburbia as a pet. I'm entitled to my opinion, just as everyone else is and personally I think that it should be made illegal to keep one and I will push for this to happen and it's highly likely that it will occur

Then you should have specified that there are other 'rescues' rehoming foxes without desexing instead of making a blanket statement.

You are entitled to your opinion, however you are not entitled to make factually incorrect accusations.

[Greytmate]

And just to clarify, that article is about someone who ADOPTED a fox, not the founder of the organisation. The ADOPTER is 23, not the person who runs the shelter.

Sorry to hear about your Loxy, Kirty. I don't want to get involved, as I don't have a major problem with it if they are desexed and rehomed responsibly.

But I will add that even if the founder of the organisation was 23 that shouldn't matter! I am only 23, have been around animals my entire life, have been involved in rescue for 5 years, including running a rescue for the last 2 years. I have a Bachelor of Animal Science Honours, specialising in companion animal welfare and management and a graduate diploma, plus numerous courses. You would be surprised what the younger generation is capable of, 90% of our rescue organisation are under 25. :)

To be able to credibly devise and manage a wild-animal capture and rehoming program I would expect a person to have post-graduate behaviour qualifications as well as qualifications in zoology or vet science. Without these types of professional qualifications they are not in a good position to justify their actions as being beneficial rather than harmful.

We wouldn't accept the word of unqualified people working in zoos or for the DPI in the management of wild species, and there is no reason to accept it from people selling foxes either.

There are people who think its ok to "rescue" any animal and rehome without desexing. Oh and there are people who are happy to place troubled/destructive/aggressive domestic dogs to "farms". You dont need a licence to keep bunnies or ferrets yet they are pets that come with responsibility re husbandry & containment. Id imagine there is a database for the keeping of foxes as a pet, and any illegally kept animal would be subject to seizure.

The answer is if we always look to the lowest denominator in society we are sure to find issue with any form of animal ownership. Dog & cat ownership by its popularity would definitely be under risk!

Yes indeed WIW you are entitled to your opinion.

Who would you imagine is running this database?

There are DPI guidelines and lots of regulations for keeping most domestic animals. But foxes are not domestic animals.

[redangel]

Who would you imagine is running this database?

There are DPI guidelines and lots of regulations for keeping most domestic animals. But foxes are not domestic animals.

Are snakes/lizards/some species of birds/frogs classified as domestic animals? Are there not licences to keep these?

Id imagine that foxes would be classed as exotic? Surely those who keep reptiles are on a database? Doesnt seem to be hard surely?

[Greytmate]

Who would you imagine is running this database?

There are DPI guidelines and lots of regulations for keeping most domestic animals. But foxes are not domestic animals.

Are snakes/lizards/some species of birds/frogs classified as domestic animals? Are there not licences to keep these?

Id imagine that foxes would be classed as exotic? Surely those who keep reptiles are on a database? Doesnt seem to be hard surely?

I don't know, you brought up the idea. Who would pay for running a fox database and who would work out the licencing terms? I'm pretty sure the other wild animals you mention are supposed to be kept in small indoor enclosures and some especially invasive species are not legal to keep at all. Is it worth having governments put systems in place to facilitate keeping foxes responsibly? Or is that cost one more thing that outweighs the benefits of them being kept as pets in the community?

Edited February 23, 2013 by Greytmate

[redangel]

So I wonder if we have to discuss benefits...what are the benefits of keeping snakes and lizards? Or why do they keep dingoes in a domestic situation? Who decides these things????

Who pays for these animals on the register at the moment? I imagine they are all funded by licences/registrations. If you want to keep one which is not against the law of course there is a cost involved. Registration, proof of containment (dingo owners have strict rules to adhere on this) and licence....you pay fees to be able to keep some animals and have to prove knowledge.

Im not pro fox keeping but Im not against it either at the moment..im interested in hearing the pros and cons. I just hate generalizations and assumptions, and think that discussion should be beyond such things.

[*kirty*]

With other licensed pets, you pay a yearly fee for a permit. Wouldn't be that hard to add foxes to the database.

[Loving my Oldies]

Im not pro fox keeping but Im not against it either at the moment..im interested in hearing the pros and cons. I just hate generalizations and assumptions, and think that discussion should be beyond such things.

I agree, redangel, but you are tilting at the moon :) . It is a rare discussion that goes beyond the subjective and emotional.

Good or bad, I don't really know, because if subjectivism and emotion weren't involved, there would not be much discussion.

What needs to be guarded against, but goes on here all the time, is that people push their own particular barrows in methods that denigrate others.

Argument for argument's sake is all very well and it is highly desirable that we engage our intellectual capacities. But to the extent that the person doing the arguing wants one thing and one thing only and that is their self aggrandisement and the denigration of others, relegates a debate to the insubstantial.

Edited February 24, 2013 by Danny's Darling

[Greytmate]

Im not pro fox keeping but Im not against it either at the moment..im interested in hearing the pros and cons. I just hate generalizations and assumptions, and think that discussion should be beyond such things.

I don't think we should assume that the idea of foxes as pets is of overall benefit to Australia.

Much study has been done on the keeping of dogs and cats and the benefits of domestic pet ownership to society. That isn't an assumption, it is something that is known through study. The procedures and practices that ethical dog rescues used are based on the latest research available and the best practices set by professionals keep up to date with this. They are not just things that are assumed to work, they have been shown to have a positive effect.

So where is the evidence that selling foxes in Australia will be of overall benefit to people and animal welfare? I am not going to assume that foxes have a place as pets in Australia just because a few people desire to own one. Where is the evidence that early socialisation can override adult traits of wild animals? Where is the evidence that foxes living in backyard captivity are not suffering a great deal of stress?

I'm going to base my opinion on what we know about foxes, and not just assume that they are suitable to be offered for sale as pets.

[*kirty*]

Well I've given you my first-hand experience, and the anecdotal experiences of others. If you google 'fox forum' you will find lots of people who keep them as pets overseas. Many overseas breeders sell the kits at a young age so they can be tamed by their new owners. But you choose to ignore that info. You are basing your opinion on what YOU know about foxes, not all the information available.

How does a pet snake benefit the community? Or a pet spider? I bet they benefit the person who owns them, because the care for/appreciate that pet. I have a pet yabby - he was taken from the wild by someone and sold to me. Does he benefit the community? I really don't understand your emphasis on community benefits. My neighbours dogs who bark all day certainly don't benefit me. Nor does my neighbours cat who sprays on my front door. Or my neighbours chooks who attract rats into my yard.

[Loving my Oldies]

Well said, Kirty

[Greytmate]

Well I've given you my first-hand experience, and the anecdotal experiences of others. If you google 'fox forum' you will find lots of people who keep them as pets overseas. Many overseas breeders sell the kits at a young age so they can be tamed by their new owners. But you choose to ignore that info. You are basing your opinion on what YOU know about foxes, not all the information available.

These people are not breeding foxes they are taking wild foxes and there is a big difference.

I don't want more anecdotal evidence, I would like to see the same type of evidence that informs how ethical canine rescue is run. There is also arguments put forward that the fox should not be kept in captivity and they are pretty persuasive.

What is the success rate of taming wild foxes? How do we know that they are not overly stressed by captivity? What is the impact on neighbours of keeping foxes in captivity?

How does a pet snake benefit the community? Or a pet spider? I bet they benefit the person who owns them, because the care for/appreciate that pet. I have a pet yabby - he was taken from the wild by someone and sold to me. Does he benefit the community? I really don't understand your emphasis on community benefits. My neighbours dogs who bark all day certainly don't benefit me. Nor does my neighbours cat who sprays on my front door. Or my neighbours chooks who attract rats into my yard.

These animals are small and kept indoors. Invasive species are often illegal. There is very little cost to the community by people keeping these types of animals, no loss of community amenity such as a larger predator might cause, and so there is a net benefit in the government setting up a system for regulation of ownership.

The culture of cat ownership has changed in line with our improving knowledge of the ecological damage they cause in Australia. Encouraging people to think of foxes as suitable pets seems very regressive.