Her Majesty Dogmad Posted February 23, 2013 Share Posted February 23, 2013 I missed most of it but this rescue group was on Channel 9 breakfast TV this morning. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Plan B Posted February 23, 2013 Share Posted February 23, 2013 Naaw, aren't you a condescending and nasty person? That can absolutely come across to those who have less knowledge in an argument. I guess that's why I always fact check and investigate, so I never feel like you have. :) Go and headbutt somebody else. There is nothing about any of your comments that makes me think you have the intelligence or enough unbiased information to discuss the issue politely or rationally, so I'm not sure why you bother. Have fun playing with the cute baby foxies. Rational sentence there. Kudos. Text Not interested. Not every thread needs to become about these bull breeds you once knew or now know or whatever the story is this week. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Her Majesty Dogmad Posted February 23, 2013 Share Posted February 23, 2013 (edited) Naaw, aren't you a condescending and nasty person? That can absolutely come across to those who have less knowledge in an argument. I guess that's why I always fact check and investigate, so I never feel like you have. :) Go and headbutt somebody else. There is nothing about any of your comments that makes me think you have the intelligence or enough unbiased information to discuss the issue politely or rationally, so I'm not sure why you bother. Have fun playing with the cute baby foxies. Rational sentence there. Kudos. Text Not interested. Not every thread needs to become about these bull breeds you once knew or now know or whatever the story is this week. And I'm not interested in your opinion on my opinion/stories or whatever especially when you like to twist and misconsture it so frequently, so how about you keep it to yourself. Edited February 23, 2013 by dogmad Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greytmate Posted February 23, 2013 Share Posted February 23, 2013 Going and talking to the fox rescue people, hearing what they have to say, and seeing their set-up is about as useful as going in to a pet shop and listening to the owner defend their business. It doesn't mean much, and doesn't reveal anything that they don't want to show you. It's also pretty pointless if you consider the harm caused by petshops/fox rescue happens out in people's lives, not within the shop/shelter itself. I do not believe there has been any doubt expressed about their standards of care, so visiting the shelter would be rather pointless. If we look at the bigger picture of foxes in Australia and Australian culture and attitudes towards pet ownership we are able to gain a better understanding of the pros and cons of fox rescue. Do the people working with these animals have any qualification in zoology or animal behaviour or any other discipline that would give them a basis for understanding fox behavioural needs? No need to visit them or even any reason why we should listen to them unless they are experts in the field. I see too many problems occurring as a long-term consequence of foxes being marketed as pets in Australia. I can't see how it is appropriate for a wild animal with scent glands to be kept in a suburban domestic environment, there are no regulations or council guidelines that enforce the responsible keeping of foxes in a community. There is no support at all for a person who's pet fox escapes or behaves in a way that is harmful to the community. There can be no way of knowing how a particular wild animal will mature, whether it will be a good pet as an adult or not. There is no way of knowing when a person who is renting will be forced to move out, or if they will be able to find new accommodation for the fox. They are selling foxes on their website, trying to create a market niche which doesn't exist right now. We believe that with just the right amount of patience and TLC foxes can make a loving addition to any family...Foxes are beautiful creatures and we believe they can make loving pets.. I can imagine that anyone that they refused to supply a fox to might be tempted to just go out and find one themselves anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
*kirty* Posted February 23, 2013 Share Posted February 23, 2013 (edited) I can imagine that anyone that they refused to supply a fox to might be tempted to just go out and find one themselves anyway. People already can, and do, do this all the time. If its not illegal, and the people are responsible, who cares? Foxes are already here - just like feral cats and wild dogs, but nobody is banning them as pets. One escaped, desexed fox is going to do no more damage than the millions of other foxes out there already. As for scent glands, lots of animals have scent glands. As I said, a fox only releases its scent gland when it is frightened. There obviously is a niche for pet foxes, because they have already rehomed some. If it was legal here, I would have another one. They are amazing animals and can make fantastic pets. And just recently, someone was trying to get a permit to import silver foxes to sell as pets. Of course, the same principles apply as with any special needs animal - they must be in the right home. I can't see this group churning out hundreds of foxes and hopefully they will do the right thing by them. I know wild foxes are a problem, I know they can cause a lot of damage - but so do feral cats and wild dogs. So do rabbits, but you can keep them as pets. In the right situations foxes make beautiful, intelligent pets. Edited February 23, 2013 by *kirty* Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Weasels Posted February 23, 2013 Share Posted February 23, 2013 Foxes are already here - just like feral cats and wild dogs, but nobody is banning them as pets. One escaped, desexed fox is going to do no more damage than the millions of other foxes out there already.. just a note, there are a lot of restrictions on owning dingoes in most states, and recently there was a successful lobby to prevent the importation of "savannah cats" (a serval-domestic x) to Australia on the grounds of the potential for environmental devastation. So foxes aren't necessarily singled out among the feral predators here in terms of legislation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
*kirty* Posted February 23, 2013 Share Posted February 23, 2013 (edited) I know that, but unlike the Savannah cat, the fox is already here. I wonder if QLD has less wild rabbits than the other states, seeing as they ban the ownership of pet rabbits? I doubt it! ETA: I find a lot of this stuff highly amusing to be honest - quick, lets ban Savannah cats and foxes and whatever else because 'dey will kill all teh nature!!' Meanwhile, the government is happy to bulldoze whatever bushland and forest it can get its hands on... Edited February 23, 2013 by *kirty* Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greytmate Posted February 23, 2013 Share Posted February 23, 2013 I can imagine that anyone that they refused to supply a fox to might be tempted to just go out and find one themselves anyway. People already can, and do, do this all the time. If its not illegal, and the people are responsible, who cares? Foxes are already here - just like feral cats and wild dogs, but nobody is banning them as pets. One escaped, desexed fox is going to do no more damage than the millions of other foxes out there already. As for scent glands, lots of animals have scent glands. As I said, a fox only releases its scent gland when it is frightened. There obviously is a niche for pet foxes, because they have already rehomed some. If it was legal here, I would have another one. They are amazing animals and can make fantastic pets. And just recently, someone was trying to get a permit to import silver foxes to sell as pets. Of course, the same principles apply as with any special needs animal - they must be in the right home. I can't see this group churning out hundreds of foxes and hopefully they will do the right thing by them. I know wild foxes are a problem, I know they can cause a lot of damage - but so do feral cats and wild dogs. So do rabbits, but you can keep them as pets. In the right situations foxes make beautiful, intelligent pets. They are using emotional and persuasive language in their website to strongly encourage new people to consider a fox as a pet, and campaigning in the media for more exposure. They have no way of ensuring that the foxes will end up in the right homes. An escaped pet is going to cause distress to its owner regardless of species, but they can't expect any help with the recovery of a lost fox, and the pet fox is in more danger than if it had never been tamed. I don't think people should be considering foxes as a domestic pet, regardless of there being some examples of where it has worked. There is a lot of potential for things to go wrong that are less likely to happen with a domesticated breed like domestic rabbits, domestic ferrets, domestic cats etc. The foxes are wild, and have not been selected for traits that allow them to live closely and safely with people. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
*kirty* Posted February 23, 2013 Share Posted February 23, 2013 Why wouldn't they get help finding a lost fox? If this group are spreading the word about pet foxes, hopefully if a tame one turned up somewhere, the authorities could be called and the fox sent home. No, they don't have any guarantee of the fox ending up in the right home, but with the right screening of homes, they have the best chance of doing so. Look at some of the horror stories on here of breeders selling dogs to people who end up being dodgy. I completely agree that foxes are not for everyone, but I just wish people would stop writing it off before seeing it for themselves. I have spoken to several people who have kept pet foxes and all had the same experience as me. They were tame and friendly pets. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greytmate Posted February 23, 2013 Share Posted February 23, 2013 Why wouldn't they get help finding a lost fox? If this group are spreading the word about pet foxes, hopefully if a tame one turned up somewhere, the authorities could be called and the fox sent home. There is no authority over foxes. No fox control laws that work like dog control laws to deal with the collection, transport and impounding of lost foxes. Anyone has the right to trap a fox in a public place and take it to a vet for euthanasia. There is no protection of a procedure for declaring a fox dangerous, no regulation of suitable enclosure, it will just be seized and euthanized if a valid complaint is made to council about it. No, they don't have any guarantee of the fox ending up in the right home, but with the right screening of homes, they have the best chance of doing so. Look at some of the horror stories on here of breeders selling dogs to people who end up being dodgy. Yes there are numerous stories of people failing with pet ownership and selling animals not fit to be pets. Fortunately dogs are able to be resold as adults, and the laws are fairly clear about the responsibilities of dog owners. That is a reason why wild foxes should not be promoted as pets, not a reason why it should be done. Dogs are very resilient animals that can be rehomed as adults because of their selected traits to fit in with people. We do not know if foxes are able to cope with this. The best dog rescues are run in accordance with the best practice as advised by dog behaviour professionals. Where is this group getting guidance from to determine best practice for selecting and selling wild foxes? It sounds as though they are willing to rehoming any fox, regardless of its ability or willingness to live in a home as a pet. I completely agree that foxes are not for everyone, but I just wish people would stop writing it off before seeing it for themselves. I have spoken to several people who have kept pet foxes and all had the same experience as me. They were tame and friendly pets. No, not having foxes as pets is the default in Australia. There needs to be good reasons shown why it is beneficial to the Australian community and ecology to promote foxes as pets. Otherwise I don't see any reason why this group should be supported in their activities or fundraising. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
*kirty* Posted February 23, 2013 Share Posted February 23, 2013 I really don't want to argue with you, but I can't stop... :) They say on their website that foxes that are unsuitable for rehoming will be PTS. So no, they are not rehoming everything regardless of temperament. I would assume it would be in their best interests to only rehome friendly foxes if they want to build the reputation of foxes as pets. I am sure these people did not just find a fox and decide to rehome it. I wouldn't mind betting that they have raised several of them before deciding to try and market them as pets. And as I said earlier, there is a LOT of information about fox care and management on overseas websites. Why does it need to be 'beneficial to the community and ecology' to have a pet fox? What other pets are beneficial to our ecology? Nothing in life is black and white. Nobody is telling you to get a pet fox. You don't even live in the same state as this group, so you are in no danger of having a rescued fox for a neighbour. In NSW it is perfectly legal to keep a fox as a pet. I like unusual pets, and so do many other people. You probably don't want a pet rat or pet snake either, but lots of people do. How about we give this group a chance before tearing them to pieces. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greytmate Posted February 23, 2013 Share Posted February 23, 2013 (edited) I really don't want to argue with you, but I can't stop... :) I'm happy to debate this subject. They say on their website that foxes that are unsuitable for rehoming will be PTS. So no, they are not rehoming everything regardless of temperament. I would assume it would be in their best interests to only rehome friendly foxes if they want to build the reputation of foxes as pets. There are things on their website which cause me to doubt this. Here is a description of a fox they were advertising for sale. It doesn't particularly sound like an animal that is friendly, but rather one that will just tolerate humans. Ally loves the outdoors and would not be suitable as an indoor pet. ...Temperament: Ally is cautious around humans he doesn't know but not at all aggressive and has made significant progress in the past month. He can be held and petted by his carers and loves playing with toys and accepting treats from hands. Ally is not keen on baths and has not spent any time on a leash at this stage. He is happy wearing collars and easy to handle when it comes to taking him to and from his pen. Overall Ally is a very sweet fox and in time we believe with a lot of TLC Ally could become a loving member of any family. And there is this life for foxes who are unable to tolerate people. *Less sociable foxes who do not meet behaviour requirements for normal-adoption will stay with a suitable foster carer until an appropriate forever home can be found that understands their special needs. Fox Rescue Sydney understands that not all foxes are suited to life as a house pet and that some foxes may be happiest in an outdoor run with minimal human interaction. I am sure these people did not just find a fox and decide to rehome it. I wouldn't mind betting that they have raised several of them before deciding to try and market them as pets. And as I said earlier, there is a LOT of information about fox care and management on overseas websites. The person running the rescue is only 23. How many years have they been learning about and working with foxes to be able to learn how to assess them properly? Are they doing anything to properly assess the success of their program in a local context? Why does it need to be 'beneficial to the community and ecology' to have a pet fox? What other pets are beneficial to our ecology? Everything has pros and cons, but overall, what good is anything unless the benefit outweighs the harm. It's not good to cause harm at all. Cat ownership in Australia has pros and cons, but overall our community accepts that the benefit cats bring to people outweighs the harm they cause to ecology. It's because we have a long cultural association with domestic cats and they have been domesticated to an extent that they can be confined and kept without annoyance to others that we are able to tolerate them. So if fox rescue is to be supported, it is up to them to promote the benefits of keeping foxes as pets to the whole community instead of focussing on using emotional language and images to manipulate individuals to want to donate or buy a fox. Nothing in life is black and white. Nobody is telling you to get a pet fox. You don't even live in the same state as this group, so you are in no danger of having a rescued fox for a neighbour. In NSW it is perfectly legal to keep a fox as a pet. I like unusual pets, and so do many other people. You probably don't want a pet rat or pet snake either, but lots of people do. How about we give this group a chance before tearing them to pieces. No it's not black and white. I would love a pet cheetah, and there are many people around the world who do this and can provide care instructions for me on the internet. I could even buy one if if I was able to get a permit. Imagine how special I would be, parading around with my unusual exotic pet. But being a pet is not necessarily in the best interests of a wild animal. And wild animals can be unpredictable in behaviour, they have not been selected for their ability to thrive domestically. A wild animal is a risky proposition as a pet where as domesticated species are much more likely to behave in a pet-like way. So I choose just to keep dogs instead. I am happy for the group to try to convince me why promoting foxes as pets is a good idea for the people of NSW. . But as they have failed to provide any evidence that they have looked at it objectively, and have chosen to use words like 'fur-ever home' on their website, it seems to be an ill-conceived idea to me. Edited February 23, 2013 by Greytmate Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WreckitWhippet Posted February 23, 2013 Share Posted February 23, 2013 Yep it does appear to be an ill-conceived idea and one that I will be encouraging the DPI to put a stop to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
*kirty* Posted February 23, 2013 Share Posted February 23, 2013 Oh, come on. A Cheetah is hardly in the same realm as a fox. We don't already have Cheetahs roaming the streets of Australia. A fox isn't going maul its owner to death. Foxes have lived alongside humans for centuries. Did you know that there are something like 10-15 foxes per square km in suburban Melbourne?? That's about triple the number living in rural or remote areas. They are used to being around people. They are used to the hustle and bustle. Even wild foxes become unafraid of humans when living so close to them. I was out on my front lawn one night when a fox just wandered past on the footpath. He looked up and noticed me, then kept on walking. So taking an infant fox and raising it with people and pet dogs is not that difficult. Of course, taking on adult fox from the wild is an entirely different kettle of fish and not something that would be kind to the fox. As for cats, there are a HUGE number of people in this country who hate cats and think they should not be kept in Australia. But people do anyway and what's more, its perfectly legal to let your cat wander the street and kill things! Pet cats who are allowed to roam cause more damage to native birdlife than foxes ever will! I don't believe that ANY pet should be allowed to roam, especially cats. I own 11 cats and am proud to say that between them they have never killed a single thing because they are safely confined to my property. If people can't contain their animals, they shouldn't have them - regardless of species. Pet foxes won't be allowed to roam anyway - they are to be contained. I think you are being rather harsh by judging the type of people who want to own an exotic pet. Not everyone wants one just to gloat about it. I personally just like unusual animals. I'd love lots of different species if I could. It's not about showing off, it's about appreciating all kinds of animals. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
*kirty* Posted February 23, 2013 Share Posted February 23, 2013 Yep it does appear to be an ill-conceived idea and one that I will be encouraging the DPI to put a stop to. See and that annoys me. Why should you care? Nobody is forcing you to own one. Why can't people mind their own business! If it doesn't affect you, leave it be!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WreckitWhippet Posted February 23, 2013 Share Posted February 23, 2013 Yep it does appear to be an ill-conceived idea and one that I will be encouraging the DPI to put a stop to. See and that annoys me. Why should you care? Nobody is forcing you to own one. Why can't people mind their own business! If it doesn't affect you, leave it be!! Because anyone that encourages people not to euth a pest, should be shot in my opinion. These animals are rehomed without any vet work being carried out. They are not suitable pets and keeping one should not be encouraged. I will be writing to the DPI this week and I will request that they take action to shut these people down. Further to that I will push for the local member and the DPI to make it illegal to release one back into the wild or to keep one as a pet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greytmate Posted February 23, 2013 Share Posted February 23, 2013 (edited) Yep it does appear to be an ill-conceived idea and one that I will be encouraging the DPI to put a stop to. See and that annoys me. Why should you care? Nobody is forcing you to own one. Why can't people mind their own business! If it doesn't affect you, leave it be!! These people are trying to exert cultural influence by promoting foxes as pets.They have received national media attention. Given the amount of damage caused by foxes to the ecology, it could be seen as highly irresponsible to emotionally manipulate more people in favour of an animal that is subject to eradication or culling programs. It is quite valid for people to have concerns about things outside their own backyard. Zoos in Australia have come a long way with responding to cultural concerns about keeping wild animals in captivity. Encouraging unregulated backyard keeping of wild animals in captivity seems pretty regressive. Just because something has never been legislated against doesn't mean it is a good thing for people. Wreckit should be able to speak to her local member and the DPI about her concerns. Edited February 23, 2013 by Greytmate Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Her Majesty Dogmad Posted February 23, 2013 Share Posted February 23, 2013 I can't believe that noone has clamped down on ferrets .... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Polecatty Posted February 23, 2013 Share Posted February 23, 2013 Yep it does appear to be an ill-conceived idea and one that I will be encouraging the DPI to put a stop to. See and that annoys me. Why should you care? Nobody is forcing you to own one. Why can't people mind their own business! If it doesn't affect you, leave it be!! Because anyone that encourages people not to euth a pest, should be shot in my opinion. These animals are rehomed without any vet work being carried out. They are not suitable pets and keeping one should not be encouraged. I will be writing to the DPI this week and I will request that they take action to shut these people down. Further to that I will push for the local member and the DPI to make it illegal to release one back into the wild or to keep one as a pet. How can these foxes be pests if they are not doing any of the things that make them detrimental to our environment and livestock, though? And I do believe they have vet work carried out before being sold. From their site: 'All foxes are desexed and vaccinated prior to rehoming' 'An adoption fee of $250-350 applies per fox. This is to cover the cost of desexing, vaccinations, worming and flee treatments, it may also include mange treatment and a course of antibiotics if necessary.' They aren't suitable for all or even most people, however they are suitable for some. There sure are some miserable people in this world. :laugh: Talk about making a mountain out of a mole hill! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Polecatty Posted February 23, 2013 Share Posted February 23, 2013 I can't believe that noone has clamped down on ferrets .... Why? Ferrets are notoriously terrible at forming feral populations in Australian conditions. They are illegal to own in Queensland and the Northern Territory. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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