Fox Rescue

[Plan B]

I have a problem with a group who is out there marketing wild/feral animals as domestic pets.

And where exactly did you pull that from? It even says on their website:

What can I expect owning a fox?

First and foremost it is important to remember foxes from Fox Rescue Sydney are not pets, they are permanent wild rescues. The main difference here is that in an ideal world all foxes would be released. However this is not safe for either the foxes themselves who face trapping, baiting and being hunted or native wildlife who do not have natural defences against introduced species such as foxes. Fox Rescue Sydney does not ever release foxes.

[mita]

[ Wild animals are completely different. It is cruel to keep them in captivity where they cannot act according to their natural instincts.

'Natural instincts' driven by genotype. Foxes have been demonstrated to likely have phenotype for tameness potential. That research was only possible because it was possible to select foxes which, even tho undomesticated, showed behavioral signs of potential for tameness.

[Salukifan]

[ Wild animals are completely different. It is cruel to keep them in captivity where they cannot act according to their natural instincts.

'Natural instincts' driven by genotype. Foxes have been demonstrated to likely have phenotype for tameness potential. That research was only possible because it was possible to select foxes which, even tho undomesticated, showed behavioral signs of potential for tameness.

That study focussed on and selected from silver foxes. The coat colourings of the tamest foxes were even further removed from wild red fox colouring.

[mita]

These are first generation wild origin animals. Having a genotype for tameness will not be evident in many of these. That trait was linked to colours other than red. On every level that I can see, this is not a good idea.

How do you think the research was able to pick up on the potential for this trait in undomesticated foxes in the first instance? Those that showed the behavioral signs of potential for tameness.... were screened into the program to take them close to humans. Not all could be included. . Same with any species ... genetic expression varies within it.

And that likely phenotype for tameness in foxes, had not been triggered by their environment. Survival in the wild depended on other traits. But, as the science suggests, the phenotype was there, within the species, with some having more potential than others.

Which is why I've also added caveats about a fox rescue program ... by stressing that selecting on the basis of observed behaviour is critical.

[Salukifan]

These are first generation wild origin animals. Having a genotype for tameness will not be evident in many of these. That trait was linked to colours other than red. On every level that I can see, this is not a good idea.

How do you think the research was able to pick up on the potential for this trait in undomesticated foxes in the first instance? Those that showed the behavioral signs of potential for tameness.... were screened into the program to take them close to humans. Not all could be included. . Same with any species ... genetic expression varies within it.

And that likely phenotype for tameness in foxes, had not been triggered by their environment. Survival in the wild depended on other traits. But, as the science suggests, the phenotype was there, within the species, with some having more potential than others.

Which is why I've also added caveats about a fox rescue program ... by stressing that selecting on the basis of observed behaviour is critical.

Because the population observed and selected from was a captive one, in a fox farm in the former Soviet Union and observed on daily basis. The orignal study population comprised tamest foxes from fox farms across the Soviet Union. These weren't randomly acquired wild foxes.

Edited February 21, 2013 by Haredown Whippets

[mita]

Of course, it was a group that existed near humans.... on the margins. It was what enabled the researchers to screen out subtle signs of potential for tameness... and take the animals close to human so it could be developed further.. Extent of tameness & progeny trait changes were the key features.

The work has been picked up and extended beyond the original research environment. Durham University in the UK.... and also Germany (as indicated before). It has great significance for knowledge about all species that carry potential for tameness.

All of which is why I've said I'd like to see researchers keep an eye on programs such as the fox rescue... & inform them and mine data.

Edited February 21, 2013 by mita

[mita]

Double post.

Edited February 21, 2013 by mita

[Greytmate]

I have a problem with a group who is out there marketing wild/feral animals as domestic pets.

And where exactly did you pull that from?

I pulled it from the commonly accepted definitions for the word marketing and the word pet. The website is very similar to websites operated by canine rescues in their efforts to place dogs in homes. They use many of the familial terms reserved for pets and family members, such as adopt, foster carer, special needs, forever home.

I can look past what they say they are doing and why they are doing it to determine for myself what they are about. I will gauge the level of harm they might cause to others against the benefits they bring to foxes, fox owners and themselves.

Nobody has been able to explain why foxes are good pets compared to a domestic animal, or how a first generation fox can be trusted not to behave aggressively as an adult.

[Salukifan]

Of course, it was a group that existed near humans.... on the margins. It was what enabled the researchers to screen out subtle signs of potential for tameness... and take the animals close to human so it could be developed further.. Extent of tameness & progeny trait changes were the key features.

The work has been picked up and extended beyond the original research environment. Durham University in the UK.... and also Germany (as indicated before). It has great significance for knowledge about all species that carry potential for tameness.

All of which is why I've said I'd like to see researchers keep an eye on programs such as the fox rescue... & inform them and mine data.

Sorry Mita but I fail to see how a rescue program from which not one single fox will be bred will inform the researchers of anything.

[Salukifan]

I have a problem with a group who is out there marketing wild/feral animals as domestic pets.

And where exactly did you pull that from?

I pulled it from the commonly accepted definitions for the word marketing and the word pet. The website is very similar to websites operated by canine rescues in their efforts to place dogs in homes. They use many of the familial terms reserved for pets and family members, such as adopt, foster carer, special needs, forever home.

The newspaper article in the first post of this thread talks about the fox rescue encouraging people to "open homes and hearts to a different kind of furry friend". If that's not pet language then I don't know what is.

We need only look overseas to learn that it doesn't matter how long you keep a wild animal in your back yard. It's still wild. And, in certain circumstances, its a risk to your family.

Edited February 21, 2013 by Haredown Whippets

[Plan B]

I pulled it from the commonly accepted definitions for the word marketing and the word pet.

No, what you have done is interpreted something, based on very little fact.

What this group is doing is marketing themselves and what they do. Any group that wants to be successful needs to the do the same. But when that group is actively saying that their position on the subject is that foxes are not pets, all you are doing is twisting it to suit your opinion.

The website is very similar to websites operated by canine rescues in their efforts to place dogs in homes. They use many of the familial terms reserved for pets and family members, such as adopt, foster carer, special needs, forever home.

I can look past what they say they are doing and why they are doing it to determine for myself what they are about. I will gauge the level of harm they might cause to others against the benefits they bring to foxes, fox owners and themselves.

Yeah, I see a lot of 'looking past' stuff on here. Maybe just look at instead? What you are doing is making assumptions. A lot of ifs and maybes but seemingly no real attempt to look into it.

Nobody has been able to explain why foxes are good pets compared to a domestic animal, or how a first generation fox can be trusted not to behave aggressively as an adult.

Oh, did the group not reply to your email you sent to them? I just assume you did send them one because they would be better suited to answer everything you have asked here - and have a chance to quell any of your fears.

[Plan B]

The newspaper article in the first post of this thread talks about the fox rescue encouraging people to "open homes and hearts to a different kind of furry friend". If that's not pet language then I don't know what is.

Yes. I'm sure the newspaper had them write its own headline. :)

[Salukifan]

The newspaper article in the first post of this thread talks about the fox rescue encouraging people to "open homes and hearts to a different kind of furry friend". If that's not pet language then I don't know what is.

Yes. I'm sure the newspaper had them write its own headline. :)

You might be amazed at just how often press releases are printed verbatim. :)

But point taken. I still think the idea is fraught with issues for both foxes and the community. I note the website discusses leash walking your fox. I think that would place the animals at serious risk of aggression from quite a few dogs.

Edited February 21, 2013 by Haredown Whippets

[Plan B]

But point taken. I still think the idea is fraught with issues for both foxes and the community. I note the website discusses leash walking your fox. I think that would place the animals at serious risk of aggression from quite a few dogs.

I guess what I'm trying to say is, this group has most likely thought about a lot of what is being asked here, worst case scenarios, the what ifs and maybes, etc. As I'd imagine most rescue groups do (yes, I know not all do, sadly). What's in the media isn't always necessarily going to be the full extent of what they're about and how they go about it.

From reading their website, it's already much better than I had anticipated. Especially the fact that they do repeat on there that foxes are wild animals, not domesticated but tamed, etc etc. I would imagine that they screen extremely thoroughly and drill this into heads as much as possible too.

[Greytmate]

I pulled it from the commonly accepted definitions for the word marketing and the word pet.

No, what you have done is interpreted something, based on very little fact.

What this group is doing is marketing themselves and what they do. Any group that wants to be successful needs to the do the same. But when that group is actively saying that their position on the subject is that foxes are not pets, all you are doing is twisting it to suit your opinion.

The website is very similar to websites operated by canine rescues in their efforts to place dogs in homes. They use many of the familial terms reserved for pets and family members, such as adopt, foster carer, special needs, forever home.

I can look past what they say they are doing and why they are doing it to determine for myself what they are about. I will gauge the level of harm they might cause to others against the benefits they bring to foxes, fox owners and themselves.

Yeah, I see a lot of 'looking past' stuff on here. Maybe just look at instead? What you are doing is making assumptions. A lot of ifs and maybes but seemingly no real attempt to look into it.

What I am doing is critically analysing the site, along with the media appearance. I'm not interested in blindly accepting what they say, I can see what they are doing with the emotive language and images they chose to use. They are creating a perception that these animals are suitable to be kept as pets, even if they cover themselves by denying it in the fine print.

Nobody has been able to explain why foxes are good pets compared to a domestic animal, or how a first generation fox can be trusted not to behave aggressively as an adult.

Oh, did the group not reply to your email you sent to them? I just assume you did send them one because they would be better suited to answer everything you have asked here - and have a chance to quell any of your fears.

As I said, I am not interested in asking them questions, as the website and media article convey a message I disagree with. Perhaps you could think about how the average person might perceive that website.

[Salukifan]

But point taken. I still think the idea is fraught with issues for both foxes and the community. I note the website discusses leash walking your fox. I think that would place the animals at serious risk of aggression from quite a few dogs.

I guess what I'm trying to say is, this group has most likely thought about a lot of what is being asked here, worst case scenarios, the what ifs and maybes, etc. As I'd imagine most rescue groups do (yes, I know not all do, sadly). What's in the media isn't always necessarily going to be the full extent of what they're about and how they go about it.

From reading their website, it's already much better than I had anticipated. Especially the fact that they do repeat on there that foxes are wild animals, not domesticated but tamed, etc etc. I would imagine that they screen extremely thoroughly and drill this into heads as much as possible too.

I hope you're right. I just worry about a bunch of starry eyed fox fans biting off more than they can chew in terms of rescue, rehoming and ownership. Let's hope not.

[Loving my Oldies]

I just worry about a bunch of starry eyed fox fans biting off more than they can chew in terms of rescue, rehoming and ownership. Let's hope not.

This, of course, is the overriding concern and it would appear that the rescuers are quite cognisant of all these issues.

[*kirty*]

Hopefully I won't get shot down in flames, but I'd like to share my experience. I took on a 3-4 week old fox cub. She settled with us within 24hrs. She bonded with my cats and my dogs, but she was *my* girl. She was very affectionate, very playful and of course totally beautiful. I loved her like mad. I had her for almost a year and she was safely contained in the house or her enclosure all that time. Unfortunately a neighbour spotted her through the window one day and called the DSE. The people I dealt with there were extremely kind and understanding but I had to have her PTS. I was lucky to avoid a fine and I know it was silly to take her on, but she was honestly an amazing pet. I loved her to bits and I admit I bawled my eyes out when I saw this post yesterday.

People take on special needs pets all the time. People adopt demanding, higher-risk dogs all the time. If the homes are screened thoroughly then I don't see a problem.

[Her Majesty Dogmad]

Hopefully I won't get shot down in flames, but I'd like to share my experience. I took on a 3-4 week old fox cub. She settled with us within 24hrs. She bonded with my cats and my dogs, but she was *my* girl. She was very affectionate, very playful and of course totally beautiful. I loved her like mad. I had her for almost a year and she was safely contained in the house or her enclosure all that time. Unfortunately a neighbour spotted her through the window one day and called the DSE. The people I dealt with there were extremely kind and understanding but I had to have her PTS. I was lucky to avoid a fine and I know it was silly to take her on, but she was honestly an amazing pet. I loved her to bits and I admit I bawled my eyes out when I saw this post yesterday.

People take on special needs pets all the time. People adopt demanding, higher-risk dogs all the time. If the homes are screened thoroughly then I don't see a problem.

How very sad and she did nothing to deserve that.

I'd have been less worried by your fox that by the lady I met on Saturday who lives round the corner from me. She had a Staffy that "used to get out all the time" - he was dog aggressive but good with her cat. He died suddenly and so now she has purchased 2 Amstaffs who want to kill her cat. I just hope to God they don't get out, she seemed completely clueless.

[Polecatty]

these foxes are doing neither and nor will they contribute to the wild population.

Fair call. I still don't like it though. Being rural and breeding chickens, foxes make my life a living hell. The only fox I like to see is a dead one.

I know I'll be flamed but whenever I see a road kill fox I do a silent cheer.

They are just such a pest around here.

They pretty much rule my day to day routine.

I totally understand- foxes in those situations should definitely be removed one way or another. I have a fox body count to my name also, and seeing them on the road or on fences is not an unwelcome sight. The impact of feral cats is also dreadful...but as long as people keep their cats contained and prevent them from impacting upon people and other animals I would not begrudge them. :)

From what I can tell this fox rescue group is infinitely more responsible [in regards to the impact upon wildlife, stock and people]than the vast majority of cat owners who allow their animals to wander and do as they please.