Fox Rescue

[Guest crickets]

I'm quite surprised there is a need for this rescue

There isn't - these people are creating something totally unnecessary. Foxes are a pest and if caught should be humanely euthanased.

this is exactly what I would have said too.

[Polecatty]

I know a fellow who had a fox for years and he reckoned it was an interesting, affectionate pet and that it would follow him around like a dog as he worked on his property. He got it as a young cub.

If what this rescue is doing is legal and they are meeting the needs of their foxes and rehoming responsibly -which they seem to be doing as indicated by their admittance that not all foxes are appropriate for a home environment- then I really don't understand why anyone would take exception to this.

Yes, foxes are pests when they kill native wildlife and stock and they do need to be controlled- however these foxes are doing neither and nor will they contribute to the wild population. I don't see the problem.

[Salukifan]

I'm quite surprised there is a need for this rescue but obviously there is so I'm glad someone's stepped up to the mark. Sounds like they are at least very responsible with what they do.

I'd prefer seeing them in this scenario than seeing a bus passenger's phone video of a fox being ripped apart by 6 Fox hounds on a hunt this week. A Fox hound was also killed as the poor fox and then the hounds ran onto a busy road and one hound was hit by a vehicle. It was in the Daily Mail yesterday - www.dailymail.co.uk - if anyone's interested. I HATE fox hunting with a passion.

I hate fox hunting with a passion too.

I also read about that incident with much sadness. The "whimpering" fox.. it broke my heart.

I at least hope it may be a tool used to ban the "sport".

Fox hunting with hounds is illegal here everywhere but Victoria and has been illegal in the UK since 2005.

What fox hunting has to do with this thread sure beats me. If you think Strychnine baiting or trapping is a "kinder" death, think again.

Quite a few dog owners struggle to contain their pet dogs. How fox owners would fare any better beats me.

How is denying a wild animal territory and social interaction with other foxes "kind"???

Edited February 21, 2013 by Haredown Whippets

[Clyde]

these foxes are doing neither and nor will they contribute to the wild population.

Fair call. I still don't like it though. Being rural and breeding chickens, foxes make my life a living hell. The only fox I like to see is a dead one.

I know I'll be flamed but whenever I see a road kill fox I do a silent cheer.

They are just such a pest around here.

They pretty much rule my day to day routine.

[juice]

I think its wrong.

We all jump up when Americans have tigers as pets, whats the difference?

I grew up in hunt country ( Warwickshire), i have seen many in the wild, where they should be.

I also used to get one regularly screaming on my front lawn here, and Appollo chased one down at the lake last year.

[mita]

I

Yes, foxes are pests when they kill native wildlife and stock and they do need to be controlled- however these foxes are doing neither and nor will they contribute to the wild population. I don't see the problem.

A fair call plus the fact that those foxes will then contribute to another way of life that Russian research showed they have genetic potential for. It was found that foxes likely have a collections of genes which confers a propensity for tameness ... a genotype that they share with any species that are able to be domesticated. Which allowed for the 'tamed' foxes in their research program .... which came to behave like companion dogs.

Also this OP 'fox rehoming' group is desexing the animals, so the population is actually being reduced by removing them from the wild. As demonstrated 'tameness potential' is the key trait, I'd expect those choosing the foxes are selecting on that behavioral basis.

Edited February 21, 2013 by mita

[Loving my Oldies]

I think its wrong.

We all jump up when Americans have tigers as pets, whats the difference?

I grew up in hunt country ( Warwickshire), i have seen many in the wild, where they should be.

I also used to get one regularly screaming on my front lawn here, and Appollo chased one down at the lake last year.

I do see your point, Juice, but have to add that "the wild" has virtually diappeared across the planet.

[Salukifan]

I

Yes, foxes are pests when they kill native wildlife and stock and they do need to be controlled- however these foxes are doing neither and nor will they contribute to the wild population. I don't see the problem.

A fair call plus the fact that those foxes will then contribute to another way of life that Russian research showed they have genetic potential for. It was found that foxes likely have a collections of genes which confers a propensity for tameness ... a genotype that they share with any species that are able to be domesticated. Which allowed for the 'tamed' foxes in their research program .... which came to behave like companion dogs.

Also this OP 'fox rehoming' group is desexing the animals, so the population is actually being reduced by removing them from the wild. As demonstrated 'tameness potential' is the key trait, I'd expect those choosing the foxes are selecting on that behavioral basis.

The Russian "reseach" was a byproduct of farming foxes for their pelts. Those genes can only be exploited by generations of breeding. They were also linked to dilute coat colours such as blue.

These foxes are first generation kits from wild parents or wild born themselves. They will not be bred for tameness.

I agree that there is no place in Australian society for exotic pets. If you want a fox as a pet get one of these.

Or these

Edited February 21, 2013 by Haredown Whippets

[Trisven13]

whenever I see a road kill fox I do a silent cheer.

Yep! Never had this view of foxes until I lived rurally and saw the carnage they leave behind. Yes humans brought them here and they were bloody idiots to do it but simply because humans created the problem doesn't mean I have to nice feelings towards them. I have the same view of the GSD that visits my neighbours and killed one of my chooks on Christmas Day (anger at the humans who own it but also pissed off at the dog).

[mita]

i have no problem with the OP fox program, so long as the animals are desexed and they are selected for behaviours that indicate strong 'potential for tameness'. And strict rehoming standards are adhered to.

In fact, I hope they're keeping case records. While their program is not set up as piece of scientific research, there's case study data to be mined.

The Russian work on the likely genotype for tameness that foxes share with all species capable of being domesticated, is being continued at the Dpt of Evolutionary Genetics at the Max Palnck Institute in Germany. Considered absolutely to understanding the process of domestication in species ... including dogs.

Edited February 21, 2013 by mita

[Loving my Oldies]

Yes, foxes are pests when they kill native wildlife and stock and they do need to be controlled- however these foxes are doing neither and nor will they contribute to the wild population. I don't see the problem.

Dogs were originally in the wild too

If only responsible people who care solely for the animal and not for status symbols adopt a fox, there probably isn't a problem.

However, see the thread "Red Dog Driving Kelpie Dumping" .

[Horsegal98]

I'm quite surprised there is a need for this rescue but obviously there is so I'm glad someone's stepped up to the mark. Sounds like they are at least very responsible with what they do.

I'd prefer seeing them in this scenario than seeing a bus passenger's phone video of a fox being ripped apart by 6 Fox hounds on a hunt this week. A Fox hound was also killed as the poor fox and then the hounds ran onto a busy road and one hound was hit by a vehicle. It was in the Daily Mail yesterday - www.dailymail.co.uk - if anyone's interested. I HATE fox hunting with a passion.

I hate fox hunting with a passion too.

I also read about that incident with much sadness. The "whimpering" fox.. it broke my heart.

I at least hope it may be a tool used to ban the "sport".

Fox hunting with hounds is illegal here everywhere but Victoria and has been illegal in the UK since 2005.

What fox hunting has to do with this thread sure beats me. If you think Strychnine baiting or trapping is a "kinder" death, think again.

Quite a few dog owners struggle to contain their pet dogs. How fox owners would fare any better beats me.

How is denying a wild animal territory and social interaction with other foxes "kind"???

I really like foxes (as animals, they are beautiful to watch) but I am not anti fox hunting. I do think that ethical hunt clubs in the past did a better job managing fox populations than we do today.

[Weasels]

I agree that there is no place in Australian society for exotic pets. If you want a fox as a pet get one of these.

Or these

Or these :)

[Sera]

I'm quite surprised there is a need for this rescue but obviously there is so I'm glad someone's stepped up to the mark. Sounds like they are at least very responsible with what they do.

I'd prefer seeing them in this scenario than seeing a bus passenger's phone video of a fox being ripped apart by 6 Fox hounds on a hunt this week. A Fox hound was also killed as the poor fox and then the hounds ran onto a busy road and one hound was hit by a vehicle. It was in the Daily Mail yesterday - www.dailymail.co.uk - if anyone's interested. I HATE fox hunting with a passion.

I hate fox hunting with a passion too.

I also read about that incident with much sadness. The "whimpering" fox.. it broke my heart.

I at least hope it may be a tool used to ban the "sport".

Fox hunting with hounds is illegal here everywhere but Victoria and has been illegal in the UK since 2005.

What fox hunting has to do with this thread sure beats me. If you think Strychnine baiting or trapping is a "kinder" death, think again.

Quite a few dog owners struggle to contain their pet dogs. How fox owners would fare any better beats me.

How is denying a wild animal territory and social interaction with other foxes "kind"???

I'm against any form of sport hunting, whether foxes or other animals, whether with hounds or without.

As far as fox hunting with hounds however, a couple years ago I heard of it still being practiced in SA on a private property in the hills. However the article in question (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2281005/Horror-bus-passengers-pack-hounds-rip-fox-pieces-breach-hunting-ban.html#ixzz2LNVwjItH) was relating to the UK, where it still happens, even with hounds and despite being illegal.

The illegal part is meant to be allowing the hounds to kill the fox however, it is still legal to flush foxes out with them.

Fox hunting was brought up by Dogmad, so while I cannot speak for him "I'd prefer seeing them in this scenario than" answers how it fit in the conversation; I myself was relieved for once to hear of people with a penchant for foxes, especially in Australia, rather than a penchant for exterminating them.

The foxes in question are already out there, they are not being bred for pet ownership; so if they end up escaping they are returning to where they were originally found, therefore not adding to a population problem. In addition to this - and more importantly - they would be neutered and unable to reproduce therefore turning it into a trap-nueter-release incident, so still a benefit and improvement from the original situation.

How is killing an animal kind? What do you suggest as a kind alternative?

Dogs and cats are domesticated and yet in a sense are still deprived their freedom and live lives catered to our desires of them. All animals whether wild or domesticated should not be denied their chosen territories or social interactions yet it's what we do with both, with domestic animals by ownership, however loving, and with wild animals with loss of habitat, culling, etc. Or how about farmed animals? The animals you eat are deprived of more than any other animal is, what about their welfare?

Considering how things are set up it seems it's always about trying to find the lesser evil. I believe trap-neuter-release to be the best option but it is illegal to release a fox once caught, if the fox can live a happy life integrating with a family and their other animals I prefer that - and deem it a kinder alternative - than killing in whatever form, and however "humane". If. And judging by the accounts and photos and videos I saw it seemed they integrated well, or a well as any cat and dog does.

[Greytmate]

I have a problem with a group who is out there marketing wild/feral animals as domestic pets.

Domestic animals took many generations of domestication to adapt to a domestic lifestyle. These baby foxes could have all sorts of temperament 'flaws' that socialisation cannot override. Luck would play a big part about what the animal will be like when mature.

And nobody has put up a reason why a fox is so good as a pet, except to say that some are dog-like. So get a dog.

[Sera]

I have a problem with a group who is out there marketing wild/feral animals as domestic pets.

Domestic animals took many generations of domestication to adapt to a domestic lifestyle. These baby foxes could have all sorts of temperament 'flaws' that socialisation cannot override. Luck would play a big part about what the animal will be like when mature.

And nobody has put up a reason why a fox is so good as a pet, except to say that some are dog-like. So get a dog.

I truly believe these people just want to protect them, since neutering and releasing is illegal they are just trying to spare these animals death by rehoming them. It's not about finding the joys of a new pet type, they don't want to market these animals, just spare them.

[mita]

I

And nobody has put up a reason why a fox is so good as a pet, except to say that some are dog-like. So get a dog.

Not much point adding to an already polarised thread... but the reason why a (selected) fox can make a pet which behaves like a domesticated companion animal, is that it's been demonstrated that it can, because it likely has the genotype for tameness. Over time, an array of animals have been domesticated ...because of that underlying genotype. Not only dogs.

Foxes have been added to that list of domesticated animals. So a pet fox would be a pet fox, like a pet cat is a pet cat, as a pet pig is a pet pig ... Can't see people rushing out to acquire a pet fox, just as people don't exactly rush out to get a pet pig. Dogs & cats have the long history & the numbers. But it's still a possibility of acquiring a pet fox (in fact, as I've said, I'd like science to keep an interested eye on such efforts).

Foxes have been demonstrated to have a potential which modifies considerably a description of 'wild' animal. Likely genotype for tameness. Interesting how it develops over generations. Raise a tiger so it's intimately & atypically 'close' to humans .... but its offspring will have all the 'wild' predispositions. Not so, for the fox...tameness' was expressed & enhanced as a trait over generations.

Edited February 21, 2013 by mita

[Salukifan]

I have a problem with a group who is out there marketing wild/feral animals as domestic pets.

Domestic animals took many generations of domestication to adapt to a domestic lifestyle. These baby foxes could have all sorts of temperament 'flaws' that socialisation cannot override. Luck would play a big part about what the animal will be like when mature.

And nobody has put up a reason why a fox is so good as a pet, except to say that some are dog-like. So get a dog.

I truly believe these people just want to protect them, since neutering and releasing is illegal they are just trying to spare these animals death by rehoming them. It's not about finding the joys of a new pet type, they don't want to market these animals, just spare them.

Spare them from what? I, like many other people do not consider humane euthanasia as the worst possible fate for an animal.

Google "keeping fox as pet" or similar and read about the myriad of difficulties the idea raises. It seems most people consider the idea, ESPECIALLY in sububia, a bad one.

A sample of the advice available:

In his Urban Fox Ecology web site, T. Susman outlines several reasons why the average person should not attempt to keep a fox. Some of the reasons I´ve heard of to steer clear include:1) Foxes aren´t especially sociable. They may allow petting and brushing from people they are familiar with, and some owners claim they are capable of showing affection. Nevertheless they don´t accept a great deal of cuddling, and don´t like being picked up. They can be potentially vicious to strangers, especially children.2) Foxes can be destructive. Apparently, they love digging up yards or through floors and walls, and are perfectly capable of shredding furniture and other household items.3) Foxes can smell bad. Neutering the animal and removing it´s scent glands does nothing about the powerful odour from their urine. They´re also virtually impossible to house train, so the odour is going to be everywhere.4) Foxes are hyper. To keep one happy and healthy, a large outdoor enclosure will be needed. The fencing for this enclosure is also going to have to be buried deep to prevent escape through digging, and also be quite high (2m+) or include a roof to prevent jumping.5) Finding appropriate veterinary care is difficult as very few vets have cause to treat foxes. As you will be required to vaccinate the animal, finding a vet is absolutely necessary.6) It´s probably illegal for you to keep one. In Canada, it´s unlawful to keep a wild animal without a permit. Individual communities also place restrictions on exotic pets.

And what happens if it all doesn't go to plan and Foxy needs to find a new home? The RSPCA has already condemned any notion of having foxes as pets. Will this rescue be taking back every fox it places? Or will shelters be expected to pick up the pieces and PTS? God forbid owners release their pets into the wild. Many will die a slow death.

People need to get past the cute looks and realise they are dealing with a WILD animal and a feral pest at that. I love foxes but they have no place in this country and even less place in suburban homes.

Edited February 21, 2013 by Haredown Whippets

[Greytmate]

I truly believe these people just want to protect them, since neutering and releasing is illegal they are just trying to spare these animals death by rehoming them. It's not about finding the joys of a new pet type, they don't want to market these animals, just spare them.

They are marketing them if they are on the front page of the paper. A good death may be preferable to living in an unsuitable environment. We know that dogs are highly adaptable to various domestic lifestyles and people can make an informed choice about what sort/breed of dog they need. Wild animals are completely different. It is cruel to keep them in captivity where they cannot act according to their natural instincts.

[Salukifan]

I

And nobody has put up a reason why a fox is so good as a pet, except to say that some are dog-like. So get a dog.

Not much point adding to an already polarised thread... but the reason why a (selected) fox can make a pet which behaves like a domesticated companion animal, is that it's been demonstrated that it can, because it likely has the genotype for tameness. Over time, an array of animals have been domesticated ...because of that underlying genotype. Not only dogs.

Foxes have been added to that list of domesticated animals. So a pet fox would be a pet fox, like a pet cat is a pet cat, as a pet pig is a pet pig ... Can't see people rushing out to acquire a pet fox, just as people don't exactly rush out to get a pet pig. Dogs & cats have the long history & the numbers. But it's still a possibility of acquiring a pet fox (in fact, as I've said, I'd like science to keep an interested eye on such efforts).

Dogs and cats have also been selectively bred for generations to live with humans. In dogs we've bred for bite inhibition, people focus, sociability with dogs and others etc etc.

These are first generation wild origin animals. Having a genotype for tameness will not be evident in many of these. That trait was linked to colours other than red. On every level that I can see, this is not a good idea.

Edited February 21, 2013 by Haredown Whippets