Bull Mastiffs Attack Mother And Children In The Uk

[Ruin Maniac]

I'm still ignorant about shows myself.

The media will try and exaggerate the case, and the owner of the dogs will try to defend it. Without firsthand knowledge it's difficult to know where the truth lies between the two. This is nothing out of the ordinary. Charges have been laid, the animals destroyed, and more secure fencing is being built on the owner's property. I feel like this case has been handled well, though I hope the children involved are able to love good dogs in future.

[BlackJaq]

Is there somewhere where court documents can be viewed or is that not something that is done over there?

Edited February 22, 2013 by BlackJaq

[Plan B]

Sorry to disappoint you Plan B being as you just love to follow me all over DOL and attempt to demonstrate your assumed superior knowledge and experience of dogs.

Don't be hysterical. There are about three parts of DOL I participate in. This is one. Stop insinuating.

It never used to be such a terrible place to live with a dog as dogs were far more accepted in general by people than here in Australia and were mostly very loved and valued by their owners. People's first thoughts when looking for a new dog were to go to the RSPCA or a breeder. Puppy farms were pretty much unheard of as there was no need for them.

What era and where are you talking about here though? I'll assume you didn't live in every city or county in the UK. In my area, it wasn't as bad as most, but hop on a bus and rangers were seizing dogs left, right, and centre.

[Her Majesty Dogmad]

Sorry to disappoint you Plan B being as you just love to follow me all over DOL and attempt to demonstrate your assumed superior knowledge and experience of dogs.

Don't be hysterical. There are about three parts of DOL I participate in. This is one. Stop insinuating.

It never used to be such a terrible place to live with a dog as dogs were far more accepted in general by people than here in Australia and were mostly very loved and valued by their owners. People's first thoughts when looking for a new dog were to go to the RSPCA or a breeder. Puppy farms were pretty much unheard of as there was no need for them.

What era and where are you talking about here though? I'll assume you didn't live in every city or county in the UK. In my area, it wasn't as bad as most, but hop on a bus and rangers were seizing dogs left, right, and centre.

Not hysterical but you do like to portray yourself as someone with years of experience. You are not the only one. Your previous post suggested I hadn't lived in the UK and had no idea about it when in fact that's where I'm from and last lived there in the 1990s. I think it is a terrible place now for dogs and people.

And were you involved in rescue over there? Is that where you built up some of your experience? Perhaps you are older than I imagine.

[Tempus Fugit]

Interesting how these dog attack threads seem to go from maudlin expressions of grief to cat fights.

It appears some DOLers seem to have a romantic notion that dogs should have the characteristics of stuffed teddy bears, rather than being predatory carnivores. The incident is simply another example of the ease with which behaviour e.g. body language can cause a dog to go into a prey killing mode.

The dog that killed Ayen Chol was reported as having played with the people across the street from the Chol house just before the attack.

Then there are the neighbourhood barbies, with Blue, the family pet, who has never shown any aggression, and a bunch of kids playing. As kids are wont to do in play, they begin to yell and scream, suddenly Sally fromdown the road is being rushed to hospital to get a bite stitched while Blue is off to the vet for a green needle.

Out in the country there is Shep, the faithful working sheepdog, the kids' best friend. One night he gets out of his pen or slips his chain and comes across the neighbours wussy flock of merinos, unsuited to defending themselves. Result: multiple dead and dying sheep. If shep is lucky he might even get to join the feral pack in the nearby national park, using his innate prey hunting skills to survive.

If after thousands of years of domestication we still have humans attacking other humans, then we can hardly expect a domestic animal, inherently a predatory carnivore, to behave better.

The pity about 'dangerous dog' declarations is that probably at least half the dogs in the country would, at some point in their lives, do something that would violate the 'dangerous dog' criteria. Similar with temperament testing. Push the right buttons and you would probably elicit a 'dangerous'response such as prey hunting or defensive aggression from most dogs. If they are so successful, why don't we have temperament testing for humans, e.g. to reduce school bullying, and 'dangerous person' declarations for those found guilty of assaults and similar crimes?

For those who have seen the movie, "Life of Pi" orread the book, I think the romantics are those who would rather believe Pi's first version of events rather than the more plausible second. They should go and read William Golding's "Lord of the Flies", especially where the choir boys slip into cannibalism.

By the way, if Bullbreedlover's post of last Friday is correct, in respect of the dogs' owner's fence being vandalised, then I sympathise with her. I too have had panels in my backyard fence (where the dogs are) kicked in. Of course if I had millions of dollars swindled from NSW taxpayers like that dickhead now before ICAC, who brought in the stupid NSW dangerous dog laws when he was local government minister, then I might have been able to afford a thick masonry fence, complete with a topping of broken glass or razor wire.

[Ruin Maniac]

I don't disagree that dogs will behave that way at times. I don't disagree that no dog is immune to instinct.

However, the dangerous dog laws are not there to punish the dog for its instincts. Rather, they are there to punish the owner for not keeping it fully supervised ("Blue") and/or secured ("Shep"). I'm not saying the laws are efficient at correcting this problem, but that's another discussion.

It is incredibly unfortunate (and I personally find it somewhat sickening) that the fence was sabotaged. However, the owner of these dogs is said to be building more secure fences. It shouldn't have to be this way, but because we accept that there are terrible people out there who will set dogs loose, perhaps those reinforced fences/runs should have been built sooner. I personally supervise my dog in the yard, and he's otherwise behind locked doors inside the house. I trust some of the locals less than I trust the local wildlife, including our very territorial monster of a brushtail.

[mantis]

Interesting how these dog attack threads seem to go from maudlin expressions of grief to cat fights.

It appears some DOLers seem to have a romantic notion that dogs should have the characteristics of stuffed teddy bears, rather than being predatory carnivores. The incident is simply another example of the ease with which behaviour e.g. body language can cause a dog to go into a prey killing mode.

The dog that killed Ayen Chol was reported as having played with the people across the street from the Chol house just before the attack.

Then there are the neighbourhood barbies, with Blue, the family pet, who has never shown any aggression, and a bunch of kids playing. As kids are wont to do in play, they begin to yell and scream, suddenly Sally fromdown the road is being rushed to hospital to get a bite stitched while Blue is off to the vet for a green needle.

Out in the country there is Shep, the faithful working sheepdog, the kids' best friend. One night he gets out of his pen or slips his chain and comes across the neighbours wussy flock of merinos, unsuited to defending themselves. Result: multiple dead and dying sheep. If shep is lucky he might even get to join the feral pack in the nearby national park, using his innate prey hunting skills to survive.

If after thousands of years of domestication we still have humans attacking other humans, then we can hardly expect a domestic animal, inherently a predatory carnivore, to behave better.

The pity about 'dangerous dog' declarations is that probably at least half the dogs in the country would, at some point in their lives, do something that would violate the 'dangerous dog' criteria. Similar with temperament testing. Push the right buttons and you would probably elicit a 'dangerous'response such as prey hunting or defensive aggression from most dogs. If they are so successful, why don't we have temperament testing for humans, e.g. to reduce school bullying, and 'dangerous person' declarations for those found guilty of assaults and similar crimes?

For those who have seen the movie, "Life of Pi" orread the book, I think the romantics are those who would rather believe Pi's first version of events rather than the more plausible second. They should go and read William Golding's "Lord of the Flies", especially where the choir boys slip into cannibalism.

By the way, if Bullbreedlover's post of last Friday is correct, in respect of the dogs' owner's fence being vandalised, then I sympathise with her. I too have had panels in my backyard fence (where the dogs are) kicked in. Of course if I had millions of dollars swindled from NSW taxpayers like that dickhead now before ICAC, who brought in the stupid NSW dangerous dog laws when he was local government minister, then I might have been able to afford a thick masonry fence, complete with a topping of broken glass or razor wire.

[megan_]

I don't believe that dogs are Teddy bears but I doubt very much my dogs would kill someone because of their body language.

[Her Majesty Dogmad]

I don't believe that dogs are Teddy bears but I doubt very much my dogs would kill someone because of their body language.

Nor mine, I can give you a bullet proof guarantee that none of my dogs would hurt another, even under duress. It would be a different story if my Jack Russell met a cat however and for those reasons she is safely contained within my yard, she does not go off leash down the road - ever, nor does she get taken anywhere near cats.

[Red Fox]

Interesting how these dog attack threads seem to go from maudlin expressions of grief to cat fights.

It appears some DOLers seem to have a romantic notion that dogs should have the characteristics of stuffed teddy bears, rather than being predatory carnivores. The incident is simply another example of the ease with which behaviour e.g. body language can cause a dog to go into a prey killing mode.

The dog that killed Ayen Chol was reported as having played with the people across the street from the Chol house just before the attack.

Then there are the neighbourhood barbies, with Blue, the family pet, who has never shown any aggression, and a bunch of kids playing. As kids are wont to do in play, they begin to yell and scream, suddenly Sally fromdown the road is being rushed to hospital to get a bite stitched while Blue is off to the vet for a green needle.

Out in the country there is Shep, the faithful working sheepdog, the kids' best friend. One night he gets out of his pen or slips his chain and comes across the neighbours wussy flock of merinos, unsuited to defending themselves. Result: multiple dead and dying sheep. If shep is lucky he might even get to join the feral pack in the nearby national park, using his innate prey hunting skills to survive.

If after thousands of years of domestication we still have humans attacking other humans, then we can hardly expect a domestic animal, inherently a predatory carnivore, to behave better.

The pity about 'dangerous dog' declarations is that probably at least half the dogs in the country would, at some point in their lives, do something that would violate the 'dangerous dog' criteria. Similar with temperament testing. Push the right buttons and you would probably elicit a 'dangerous'response such as prey hunting or defensive aggression from most dogs. If they are so successful, why don't we have temperament testing for humans, e.g. to reduce school bullying, and 'dangerous person' declarations for those found guilty of assaults and similar crimes?

For those who have seen the movie, "Life of Pi" orread the book, I think the romantics are those who would rather believe Pi's first version of events rather than the more plausible second. They should go and read William Golding's "Lord of the Flies", especially where the choir boys slip into cannibalism.

By the way, if Bullbreedlover's post of last Friday is correct, in respect of the dogs' owner's fence being vandalised, then I sympathise with her. I too have had panels in my backyard fence (where the dogs are) kicked in. Of course if I had millions of dollars swindled from NSW taxpayers like that dickhead now before ICAC, who brought in the stupid NSW dangerous dog laws when he was local government minister, then I might have been able to afford a thick masonry fence, complete with a topping of broken glass or razor wire.

Well said.

[raineth]

I don't believe that dogs are Teddy bears but I doubt very much my dogs would kill someone because of their body language.

Exactly.

I think it's a real problem to be breeding dogs that have very low thresholds to aggression.

[Bullbreedlover]

I don't believe that dogs are Teddy bears but I doubt very much my dogs would kill someone because of their body language.

Exactly.

I think it's a real problem to be breeding dogs that have very low thresholds to aggression.

Raineth are you talking Breed Specific or dogs in general??? Please elaborate.

If you are talking breed specific are you aware of the Breeds exact purpose and what they were bred for.(and before anyone jumps up and says the Bullmastiff was only breed to pin and hold their prey then I suggest you research the breed carefully)

If you are talking dogs in general then once again please elaborate.

I do not condone any action that these dogs have performed but I think people need to be aware of what they are saying before they say it. Any dog can have aggression. ANY DOG(not breed) CAN HAVE ENOUGH AGGRESSION TO SERIOUSLY HARM A PERSON.

[Ruin Maniac]

I am quite certain she means any dog. Breeding two parents or even one that is extremely and aggressively reactive is indeed a bad plan.

Furthermore, I don't particularly understand breeding for a temperament or physical feature required for a specific kind of work if the dog and its progeny do not engage in said work. I've heard people say it's a disservice to the animals even if they aren't intended to fulfil that purpose. Can anyone explain to me why that is? I'm new to this.

[sandgrubber]

1362043532[/url]' post='6137221']

1362016944[/url]' post='6136802']

1361695726[/url]' post='6133369']

I don't believe that dogs are Teddy bears but I doubt very much my dogs would kill someone because of their body language.

Exactly.

I think it's a real problem to be breeding dogs that have very low thresholds to aggression.

Raineth are you talking Breed Specific or dogs in general??? Please elaborate.

If you are talking breed specific are you aware of the Breeds exact purpose and what they were bred for.(and before anyone jumps up and says the Bullmastiff was only breed to pin and hold their prey then I suggest you research the breed carefully)

If you are talking dogs in general then once again please elaborate.

I do not condone any action that these dogs have performed but I think people need to be aware of what they are saying before they say it. Any dog can have aggression. ANY DOG(not breed) CAN HAVE ENOUGH AGGRESSION TO SERIOUSLY HARM A PERSON.

Some dogs would have to be pushed to rediculous extremes to attack a person. Others will 'go' if someone pushes the wrong button. These things are not breed specific, but do have breed tendencies.

There are legit reasons to breed dogs that will attack. What good is a guard dog without teeth? Or a guard dog that offers its tummy to strangers? As I see it, the problem here was not the dogs, it was the fence and the owners lack of adequate precautions. If you live in city or suburbs or are likely to have people walking by your property, and have 50 kg dogs with guarding tendencies that are easily triggered, you MUST have fencing that is beyond sabotage. You should have double gates, too. And if you fail to install adequate precautions, you should be criminally liable, as well as vulnerable to large civil lawsuits.

Edited February 28, 2013 by sandgrubber

[BlackJaq]

Furthermore, I don't particularly understand breeding for a temperament or physical feature required for a specific kind of work if the dog and its progeny do not engage in said work. I've heard people say it's a disservice to the animals even if they aren't intended to fulfil that purpose. Can anyone explain to me why that is? I'm new to this.

I've thought about this a lot. The average person just wants a dog of a look that appeals to them, but most do NOT want the breed specific temperament to go with it. Most want a friendly dog, pretty much typical lab temperament, but different look. What I think we are going to end up with, eventually, is a lot of different "looks" to choose from (looks = breeds) but pretty much one universal temperament. The reason I say this is because a lot of working temperaments are simply not suitable as pets for the average pet owner. A rapidly shrinking number of dogs actually get to do the job they were initially intended for. Really, there is no reason to keep breeding for those correct (but not suitable to be pets only) temperaments when you run out of homes to place puppies in.

It is sad, and I hate the idea, but with the way dog ownership, BSL and the public mind are developing, it seems only a matter of time to me.

That being said, I think selection purely for show purposes, rather than working ability (let's face it, most dogs are not tested for the working ability the breed initially had, before breeding) are already causing some poor (i.e. overly aggressive, nervous, timid etc) temperaments. There is no way to properly select for a working temperament when the dog does not actually do the work and pass working tests.

*Dons flame suit* lol

Edited March 1, 2013 by BlackJaq