Bull Mastiffs Attack Mother And Children In The Uk

[juice]

FFS, stop trying to make excuses for them!!!

I assume he was bred from aswell, i hope his offspring are not like him.

[Sandra777]

I agree. I think many top show dogs (and ppedigree pet dogs) in breeds with guarding or fighting in their breed histories could potentially end up in the same situation. I. Don't think BSL is the solution, but some measures to breed out aggressive tendencies in dogs for the general public, and regulate ownership for dogs with lethal potential is needed. Hard to do, given how badly governments do with dogs. But it would be good to have greater pressure for selection for temperament, and transparency about dogs whose temperament requires skilled handlers and good fencing.

Personally I don't think breeding aggressive tendencies out of specific breeds for "the general public" is the solution at all. Some breeds aren't suitable for ownership by "the general public" and breeders should man up and take responsibility for placing pups in suitable homes instead of being ruled by the all-mighty dollar and selling to anyone.

And part of the blame needs to land squarely at the feet of people who think they have the right to own whatever dog they want regardless of their ability to control and care for it properly.

[raineth]

I agree. I think many top show dogs (and ppedigree pet dogs) in breeds with guarding or fighting in their breed histories could potentially end up in the same situation. I. Don't think BSL is the solution, but some measures to breed out aggressive tendencies in dogs for the general public, and regulate ownership for dogs with lethal potential is needed. Hard to do, given how badly governments do with dogs. But it would be good to have greater pressure for selection for temperament, and transparency about dogs whose temperament requires skilled handlers and good fencing.

Personally I don't think breeding aggressive tendencies out of specific breeds for "the general public" is the solution at all. Some breeds aren't suitable for ownership by "the general public" and breeders should man up and take responsibility for placing pups in suitable homes instead of being ruled by the all-mighty dollar and selling to anyone.

And part of the blame needs to land squarely at the feet of people who think they have the right to own whatever dog they want regardless of their ability to control and care for it properly.

But in this case it does not apply at all. I don't think you could say a breeder and exhibitor could be classed as 'the general public'; as a breeder and exhibitor I really would expect her to be able to control and care for them better than almost anyone.

[disintegratus]

A terribly sad incident, for everyone involved.

I'm not meaning to start a riot here, but I'm completely ignorant when it comes to anything to do with showing. Doesn't temperament and behaviour feature greatly in a dog being judged at a show?? The little I have seen of shows indicates that the dogs have to stand there quietly while being poked and prodded etc. I don't see how a dog that's "dangerously out of control" would be able to be judged in a show ring? I know that on the street is a different time and place to a showring, but surely if a dog is as unpredictable as those mentioned, tendencies of that nature would have made themselves apparent, and the dog would not have been in a position to enter a show, let alone win anything??

On a side note, I understand fully why they were destroyed, and fair enough too, but god it's a shame, they're stunning dogs.

[Sandra777]

I agree. I think many top show dogs (and ppedigree pet dogs) in breeds with guarding or fighting in their breed histories could potentially end up in the same situation. I. Don't think BSL is the solution, but some measures to breed out aggressive tendencies in dogs for the general public, and regulate ownership for dogs with lethal potential is needed. Hard to do, given how badly governments do with dogs. But it would be good to have greater pressure for selection for temperament, and transparency about dogs whose temperament requires skilled handlers and good fencing.

Personally I don't think breeding aggressive tendencies out of specific breeds for "the general public" is the solution at all. Some breeds aren't suitable for ownership by "the general public" and breeders should man up and take responsibility for placing pups in suitable homes instead of being ruled by the all-mighty dollar and selling to anyone.

And part of the blame needs to land squarely at the feet of people who think they have the right to own whatever dog they want regardless of their ability to control and care for it properly.

But in this case it does not apply at all. I don't think you could say a breeder and exhibitor could be classed as 'the general public'; as a breeder and exhibitor I really would expect her to be able to control and care for them better than almost anyone.

Not referring to this specific case :)

[raineth]

I agree. I think many top show dogs (and ppedigree pet dogs) in breeds with guarding or fighting in their breed histories could potentially end up in the same situation. I. Don't think BSL is the solution, but some measures to breed out aggressive tendencies in dogs for the general public, and regulate ownership for dogs with lethal potential is needed. Hard to do, given how badly governments do with dogs. But it would be good to have greater pressure for selection for temperament, and transparency about dogs whose temperament requires skilled handlers and good fencing.

Personally I don't think breeding aggressive tendencies out of specific breeds for "the general public" is the solution at all. Some breeds aren't suitable for ownership by "the general public" and breeders should man up and take responsibility for placing pups in suitable homes instead of being ruled by the all-mighty dollar and selling to anyone.

And part of the blame needs to land squarely at the feet of people who think they have the right to own whatever dog they want regardless of their ability to control and care for it properly.

But in this case it does not apply at all. I don't think you could say a breeder and exhibitor could be classed as 'the general public'; as a breeder and exhibitor I really would expect her to be able to control and care for them better than almost anyone.

Not referring to this specific case :)

Oh

[Aphra]

I'm not sure how you could go about breeding "aggression" out of dogs. Aggression is a fundamental drive in most animals, including humans, to get resources and to protect resources including their own lives. Aggression is a behavioural expression, not a thing of itself. That expression may be more or less severe (a dog might just growl at another dog looking at it's bone, or it might start a full-on attack). Calling a dog aggressive tells you about its behaviour, but not what is the cause of the behaviour.

Clearly there was something at fault with the way these dogs were in terms of behaviour and management, but just calling them aggressive doesn't help explain an awful incident, nor help prevent it another time. It's really easy to fall back on breed as an explanation, once again, ignoring the fact that hundreds of Bullmastiffs go about their business every day without causing any harm.

I think this is a really relevant article in this context.

http://notesfromadogwalker.com/2012/11/20/its-not-how-theyre-raised/

I think that dogs are only as successful and safe as humans set them up to be – no matter what their past may be. When a dog gets in trouble or acts dangerously, somewhere along the line, a person has failed to make the right choice. But that’s not the same as “how they were raised”.

How they’re raised may be one factor that influences dogs, but it doesn’t determine the whole being of a dog. Perpetuating this idea only winds up hurting dogs with less than perfect pasts and shaming people who own dogs they’ve had since puppyhood.

The truth is that it’s how we currently manage dogs that determines how any dog interacts with the world. When we focus on managing them in the present, based on their individual needs, we can set dogs up for success despite what may have happened to them in the past.

, but some measures to breed out aggressive tendencies in dogs for the general public, and regulate ownership for dogs with lethal potential is needed. Hard to do, given how badly governments do with dogs. But it would be good to have greater pressure for selection for temperament, and transparency about dogs whose temperament requires skilled handlers and good fencing.

[Rebanne]

A terribly sad incident, for everyone involved.

I'm not meaning to start a riot here, but I'm completely ignorant when it comes to anything to do with showing. Doesn't temperament and behaviour feature greatly in a dog being judged at a show?? The little I have seen of shows indicates that the dogs have to stand there quietly while being poked and prodded etc. I don't see how a dog that's "dangerously out of control" would be able to be judged in a show ring? I know that on the street is a different time and place to a showring, but surely if a dog is as unpredictable as those mentioned, tendencies of that nature would have made themselves apparent, and the dog would not have been in a position to enter a show, let alone win anything??

On a side note, I understand fully why they were destroyed, and fair enough too, but god it's a shame, they're stunning dogs.

someone has already explained how differences can occur. In the ring they are on a lead and shown by someone who knows how to handle them.

Get stirred up at home, break down a fence, emotions are higher, different triggers etc. But to rip into people, no matter what the trigger/excitement levels are is totally not acceptable. The dogs deserved to be put down.

[Bullbreedlover]

This is an article from Jemima Harrison in Pedigree Dogs Exposed

Now call me petty, but I don't think we should be breeding show dogs that attack children or rewarding breeders that breed them.

The Daily Mail today carries the story of how the current UK Bullmastiff of the Year 2012, H######### got loose from his pen with another dog last March and attacked a woman and three children walking along a pavement.

Breeder Julie Lindley quickly destroyed both dogs and is, the court heard, full of remorse. I am sure she is. But how on earth did she come to have dogs with such a dangerous temperament? That kind of behaviour simply doesn't come out of nowhere.

Now the Bullmastiff is a guard dog and is bred to defend its territory. But "a serious and sustained" attack of three children off their own territory?

The KC breed description describes the Bullmastiff as "makes a happy companion who is totally reliable both physically and mentally". Clearly these dogs were not. And although it's clear there were some mitigating circumstances here (it's thought the dogs had been let out by someone trying to steal them) the dogs still bit three children and according to evidence in court shook them "like dolls".

Now temperament is paramount for many breeders - but not all. And it's possible to get away with a poor temperament within in a system that is still focused primarily on looks. Sure, the show-ring conditions dogs to trot round a ring without attacking other dogs and it teaches them to be fondle-friendly enough for a judge to grab their testicles and not have their faces bitten off. But often not much else. Indeed, in attempting to maintain some semblance of the dogs' original qualities without the true test of actually doing the job properly (whether guarding or herding or retrieving or going to ground) the danger is that showdogs can end up with less stable temperaments than their working cousins.

With new calls by MPs to extend the breed ban to more breeds, I suggest the Kennel Club acts quickly to introduce a temperament test for breeds such as the Bullmastiff. They might want to have a word with breeder Julie Hindley too, and suggest she removes the YouTube videos celebrating the dog's big win last year - and the glowing reports of the dog on her website, where she is still advertising the dog at stud.

Part of the blurb there reads: "Theo is very exciting dog he is such a showman he never lets me down and is very hard to ignore in the ring We can only dream of what else is to come from this boy."

Edited 21/2/13.

These are comments made from a Bullmastiff Breeder and others in response to the article

Anonymous21 February 2013 12:58

Lets be honest here JH you only picked this up because of the word 'CRUFTS' appearing in the title of the article. You hate crufts that much you will use anything you can against it and you do!

I knew this dog, i had judged him previously and given him best of breed,his temperament was A1! I saw him at many shows including on the continent and his behaviour around people, children and other dogs was exemplary!

what happened that day should be something we all learn from .. it could happen to anyone of us who have dogs no matter what the breed ! the dogs were let out to the garden, there were 3 dogs Theo, his 8 year old grandmother and a young 4 month old pup .. do you think if his temperament was suspect he would be with an oldie and a young pup ? the two adult dogs left the garden through a gap in the fence that had occurred because a third party had removed a fence panel, perhaps to steal the pup ?? we shall never know (incedentally the pup was found hiding in the garden, trembling laying in her own urine! which certainly paints a picture that something had occurred to frighten her to that degree ) .. what we do know is the 2 adults ran down a gulley behind the house, building up speed as they went ..perhaps chasing the perpetrator?? when they reached an opening onto a field area, school children were walking by on their way home from school .. the parents and children were frightened to see 2 large imposing dogs running towards them ..who wouldn't have been ? .. they screamed, the children screamed they shook their arms around and theo jumped up at them, the old girl did nothing at all .. the injuries the 2 children received were bite marks one to the hand and another to the leg ..(bite and release wounds not shaking, tearing wounds) the mark on the back of the neck was a scratch sustained from a claw, not teeth! .. dogs are prey driven by nature .. they had been given freedom by someone unknown .. given chase to someone unkown and then met with people and children unknown to them .. their blood is up from the run down the gulley .. what happened next was very sad for everyone concerned, but lets be honest here .. two adult bullmastiffs could have killed those children .. the wounds were superficial not life threatening !! these are the facts .. sadly the way the law is written at this time no matter that a third party had been involved mrs lindley had to be found guilty as the garden was not secure in the eyes of the law.. a campaign will follow to try and change the wording to this law! .. how can someone be held responsible for anothers act ? these are the facts .. the judge had the power to give mrs lindley 2 years imprisonment a 20 thousand pound fine and ban her from keeping dogs .. the sentence was 3 months suspended and a 1 thousand pound fine .. i think that speaks volumes! the children suffered and the dogs suffered as a result of someone elses actions .. mrs lindley being the owner of those dogs did the right thing and put them to sleep immediately. what more could she have realistically done to prevent this ? i would suggest that all of you dog owners every time you let your dogs into your garden you check the perimeter of your fence as there for the grace of god could go you !!!

ReplyDelete

RepliesMary21 February 2013 13:35

Thank you for the facts, Anonl it certainly paints a vry different picture to the one implied by the DM and picked up and exaggerated by Jemima. Knowing the reason behind the result makes for a balanced view.

There's no doubt that what happened to the children shouldn't have happened, and no belittling that at all, but the dogs certainly don't seem to be 'vicious', but victims of modern anti-dog society as much as the children.

Delete

Beth21 February 2013 15:23

Anon, if your story is the complete version (and it sounds very detailed) than that is very sad and I agree almost any dog could be in that situation. How many people have been bitten by a totally bomb-proof dog if they tried to separate a dog fight, for instance? A loose dog in pursuit of someone it saw as an invader who comes into the open and finds someone screaming and jumping (understandably so) in front of it can behave in totally unpredictable ways.

That said, people who own large protection breeds bear extra responsibility in ensuring their dogs remain secure.

I feel bad for all involved. What a horrifying experience.

Delete

Jemima Harrison21 February 2013 18:18

Thank you for the extra info. It *does* throw a different light on what happened.

I agree that a Bullmastiff intent on an attack would do a lot more damage than appears to have happened in this case - although "shaking like a doll" (and that's from the court evidence, not Daily Mail hyperbole) is clearly more than jumping up and mouthing.

I would like to ask why Theo's grandmother was PTS if she didn't do anything? And if the attack was as minor as being inferred here, I'm also a little surprised that Mrs Lindley put Theo himself to sleep, although I understand that she may have thought that was the most responsible thing to do given the circumstances. I was touched by the story of him giving a paw to a passer-by who held him.

Jemima

I wasnt going to post on here because it seems to be turning into a witch hunt against these dogs(even though this happened ast year and the dogs are dead) and the breed will suffer as a result. No dog should ever do what has been done but there are always two sides to the story.

Edited February 22, 2013 by Bullbreedlover

[frufru]

Sorry, but this letter reads like a Tabloid newspaper for the defence..

[BlackJaq]

Interesting. Certainly puts things in perspective.

If injuries were indeed minor (the article implied missing limbs and guts spilling out) and the circumstances were such as described above, I expect that many large dogs, pure bred or indeterminable breeding may have acted similarly.

I must agree, not every dog is suited to every Joe Public and people need to review this "I am entitled to own whatever dog I like" attitude if we want to stop further BSL being brought forward.

I feel terrible for those who have been attacked as well as the dogs and the owner. I must admit I did recoil a little at people's attitude towards the dogs, especially if wounds were, as has been said, very minor and the circumstances were as described above.

[Her Majesty Dogmad]

I don't believe, if the incident was as minor as someone is claiming in their letter, that the case would have gone to court.

Dogs in the UK get away with all sorts - there are horrific cases over there where dogs have killed people/children and the dogs don't even have to be euthanased.

[Bullbreedlover]

I don't believe, if the incident was as minor as someone is claiming in their letter, that the case would have gone to court.

Dogs in the UK get away with all sorts - there are horrific cases over there where dogs have killed people/children and the dogs don't even have to be euthanased.

Why dont you google Pedigree Dogs Exposed the blog and see what else has been written.

[Plan B]

Dogs in the UK get away with all sorts - there are horrific cases over there where dogs have killed people/children and the dogs don't even have to be euthanased.

Because you've lived there and seen it first hand?

There are different laws in the UK involving where an incident takes place.

But don't for one second think dogs get away with anything. When and if they can kill a dog of type, they absolutely will. Having lived twenty years in the UK, it is a terrible place to be with a dog.

[sandgrubber]

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1361466615[/url]' post='6130919']

I agree. I think many top show dogs (and ppedigree pet dogs) in breeds with guarding or fighting in their breed histories could potentially end up in the same situation. I. Don't think BSL is the solution, but some measures to breed out aggressive tendencies in dogs for the general public, and regulate ownership for dogs with lethal potential is needed. Hard to do, given how badly governments do with dogs. But it would be good to have greater pressure for selection for temperament, and transparency about dogs whose temperament requires skilled handlers and good fencing.

Personally I don't think breeding aggressive tendencies out of specific breeds for "the general public" is the solution at all. Some breeds aren't suitable for ownership by "the general public" and breeders should man up and take responsibility for placing pups in suitable homes instead of being ruled by the all-mighty dollar and selling to anyone.

And part of the blame needs to land squarely at the feet of people who think they have the right to own whatever dog they want regardless of their ability to control and care for it properly.

If the general public is generally ignorant, your placement of blame will logically lead to BSL, to protect people from their...and their neighbors....ignorance.

[juice]

If the injuries were minor, why did they say the child needed surgery?

I think you will find Dogmad did live in the uk. :)

Edited February 22, 2013 by juice

[Sandra777]

If the injuries were minor, why did they say the child needed surgery?

I think you will find Dogmad did live in the uk. :)

To the tabloid's "surgery" can include the application of a sticky plaster if that's the spin they choose to put on it.

Not implying this is the case here.

[Her Majesty Dogmad]

Dogs in the UK get away with all sorts - there are horrific cases over there where dogs have killed people/children and the dogs don't even have to be euthanased.

Because you've lived there and seen it first hand?

There are different laws in the UK involving where an incident takes place.

But don't for one second think dogs get away with anything. When and if they can kill a dog of type, they absolutely will. Having lived twenty years in the UK, it is a terrible place to be with a dog.

Sorry to disappoint you Plan B being as you just love to follow me all over DOL and attempt to demonstrate your assumed superior knowledge and experience of dogs.

For your information, not that it is any of your business but I'm from the UK and have lived there a lot longer than you it seems, not that it is a competition. I read the newspapers daily and have family and friends over there, one of whom is actually a dog trainer.

I've actually posted another article on a dog attack that states "prosecutions are rare" in reference to dog attacks. This teaches people nothing except they can get away with irresponsible behaviour causing immense suffering to people and their animals.

It never used to be such a terrible place to live with a dog as dogs were far more accepted in general by people than here in Australia and were mostly very loved and valued by their owners. People's first thoughts when looking for a new dog were to go to the RSPCA or a breeder. Puppy farms were pretty much unheard of as there was no need for them.

Now the shelters are full, things are not so great over there, some of which can be blamed on the economy and sadly, changing attitudes towards responsible pet ownership. Dumped staffies and staffy crosses are common. I visited shelters and contacted rescue groups all over the UK when I last visited in 2010.

I found the Australian attitude towards dogs to be extremely different when I first came here. Things have improved but it still has some way to go.

Edited February 22, 2013 by dogmad

[Her Majesty Dogmad]

I don't believe, if the incident was as minor as someone is claiming in their letter, that the case would have gone to court.

Dogs in the UK get away with all sorts - there are horrific cases over there where dogs have killed people/children and the dogs don't even have to be euthanased.

Why dont you google Pedigree Dogs Exposed the blog and see what else has been written.

I read it, sounds like the owner defending themselves - which isn't against the law and they did have their day in court. I'll go with the Judge's opinion - evidence presented in court by the victims and the owner - on this one rather than a DOL post by someone with a bias.

Edited February 22, 2013 by dogmad

[Chezy]

my sister used to breed and show chi's, she had a nasty lil chi that was in no way freindly with anyone it didnlt know , but when it was in the ring , the perfect dog a cherub, so saying it temp in ring was good, so it was a good dog , doesn;t really hold much with me .