SkySoaringMagpie Posted February 15, 2013 Share Posted February 15, 2013 Considering a mating, everything is otherwise fine but I'm tossing up how to deal with something you can't directly test for. I'm not identifying the sexes deliberately because ours is a relatively small breed and I can live without the chit chat. Dog A has a cousin that had AIHA and recovered. No other instances known of. Dog B has an aunt and a sister that had AIHA, one recovered, one didn't. No other instances known of. Thyroid panels of both dogs are normal. Neither of the dogs are heavily line bred Noting that everything else looks great, would you a) Rule it out immediately b) Do more research (and what kind). c) Do it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cowanbree Posted February 15, 2013 Share Posted February 15, 2013 I don't know a great deal about AIHA. Is it just a breed disposition or is it known to be hereditary? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SkySoaringMagpie Posted February 15, 2013 Author Share Posted February 15, 2013 I don't know a great deal about AIHA. Is it just a breed disposition or is it known to be hereditary? in some breeds it's a disposition, but not in this one. The mode of inheritance isn't known. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cowanbree Posted February 15, 2013 Share Posted February 15, 2013 I don't know a great deal about AIHA. Is it just a breed disposition or is it known to be hereditary? in some breeds it's a disposition, but not in this one. The mode of inheritance isn't known. Is it common in the breed or relatively rare? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Salukifan Posted February 15, 2013 Share Posted February 15, 2013 AIHA has a range of causes and not all of them have genetic components. My friend's dog got it from a rare parasite. Not withstanding that, if there's a line with multiple incidences, I'd be inclined to avoid any mating with another affected line if I could. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dancinbcs Posted February 15, 2013 Share Posted February 15, 2013 (edited) I don't know a great deal about AIHA. Is it just a breed disposition or is it known to be hereditary? in some breeds it's a disposition, but not in this one. The mode of inheritance isn't known. According to my vets they are seeing a lot more AIHA in all purebreds, crossbreds and mutts. No one knows why or what is causing it. They have no info to indicate that it is hereditary. Did the two cases related to dog B live together? Could it be an environmental cause? Edited February 15, 2013 by dancinbcs Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
espinay2 Posted February 15, 2013 Share Posted February 15, 2013 Do you know when the dogs were vaccinated in relation to the occurrences? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christina Posted February 15, 2013 Share Posted February 15, 2013 a) I wouldn't do it. If it is hereditary, even though its not thought to be, you have increased the chances of it rearing its obscure head with it on both sides. Safer to do a mating without any in the line but you are relying totally on breeders honesty & knowledge of the lines as there is no test. I had to google to find out what this was. I think this is what my friends daughters Malamute has got. The dog has to have blood transfusions. The levels go back to normal & then it recurs spasmodically so more transfusions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SkySoaringMagpie Posted February 16, 2013 Author Share Posted February 16, 2013 Safer to do a mating without any in the line but you are relying totally on breeders honesty & knowledge of the lines as there is no test. This is the real problem, at least in the case I am considering I have good information. Most of the time in our breed you don't have good information so I don't want to fall into the trap of rejecting the responsible and believing someone else's lies and ending up with the same result! It has popped up from time to time in other major lines in Australia. Re "seeing it more", we are doing things as a population that are disrupting dogs' endocrine systems and I know common household products like fire-retardant in carpets have been linked to, for example, hyperthyroidism in cats. However, I also think part of it with AIHA that it is being accurately diagnosed better than it once was. It is one of those things you only get to after ruling out a bunch of other stuff and you have to do it quickly before the dog dies. With vaccinations, even if it was a vaccine reaction, I would still be inclined to steer clear as for me it indicates an underlying vulnerability. Re whether it is common, it appears often enough that it worries me but I am a worrier ;) I can think of 6 cases immediately in the last 5 years, but I'm sure I don't know about all of them. As that's a national figure, it's hardly an epidemic, but we are also not a huge breed. There is a very good chance that in the case of Dog A and the cousin, if it is inherited, it comes from lines totally unrelated to Dog A as they are both outcrosses. However, if I find it in the cousin's lines through research, that doesn't necessarily prove it's not also elsewhere in Dog A's pedigree. I'm beginning to decide that what is more significant is it appearing twice in the one family rather than anything specific to Dog A or the combination. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
becks Posted February 16, 2013 Share Posted February 16, 2013 I wouldn't want to use dog B but would think about dog A (as in proceed with caution) if the mate is considered to be from clear lines. trouble is, you can go to a 'safe' line and have it pop up for the first time anyway, such if life! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Posted February 16, 2013 Share Posted February 16, 2013 As long as the dog you are intending to use has never had any sign or symptom of anything that might even remotely be associated with immunity most canine immunologists would likely tell you to go ahead. Jean Dodds advice when we met with her was to avoid any dog which showed symptoms but to select its sibling which had never had symptoms for breeding. You dont have enough information to be more sure of one or the other and based on only what you have here I cant see any real reason for not going ahead with either of them as long as there has never been anything ever that they have never remotely shown signs any thing no matter how small going on with their immunity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dogsfevr Posted February 16, 2013 Share Posted February 16, 2013 Have either dog been used at stud already ?? I guess the issue you have in small breed is weighing up the evils in health but then if 3 you now of have had it then yes we would have to consider the risks & then weigh up what these dogs have over other males & why the risk is worth it in what i gather is a small breeding option Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
temperamentfirst Posted February 16, 2013 Share Posted February 16, 2013 I wouldn't do it unless you have no alternative dog available. Apart from concerns re the pups themselves, if you knowingly mate two lines where the condition is known to exist, and a pup subsequently is affected ... a nasty puppy owner could make your life hell. Sad reflection on our times. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
becks Posted February 18, 2013 Share Posted February 18, 2013 Twenty years ago, this author began studying families of dogs with an apparent increased frequency of immune-mediated hematological disease (i.e., AIHA, ITP, or both) (12). Among the more commonly recognised predisposed breeds were the Akita, American Cocker Spaniel, German Shepherd Dog, Golden Retriever, Irish Setter, Great Dane, Kerry Blue Terrier and all Dachshund and Poodle varieties; but predisposition was found especially in the Standard Poodle, Long-Haired Dachshund, Old English Sheepdog, Scottish Terrier, Shetland Sheepdog, Shih Tzu, Vizsla, and Weimaraner, as well as breeds of white or predominantly white coat color or with coat color dilution (e.g., blue and fawn Doberman Pinschers, the merle Collie, Australian Shepherd, Shetland Sheepdog, and harlequin Great Dane) (1-3). Recently, other investigators have noted the relatively high frequency of AIHA, ITP or both in American Cocker Spaniels (10) and Old English Sheepdogs (13). interesting it mentions white dogs and dilutes too from http://www.canine-health-concern.org.uk/VaccineProtocols.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SkySoaringMagpie Posted February 19, 2013 Author Share Posted February 19, 2013 Thanks becks. That person seems to be anti-vaccination, and I can't rely on the research of anyone prepared to recommend homeopathic vaccination. AIHA isn't good, but neither is Parvo and the latter is far more of a risk. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Starkehre Posted February 19, 2013 Share Posted February 19, 2013 I have had 2 bitches with IMT which is so close to AIHA it is ridiculous. They are both deadly idiopathic immune mediated dieseases. As you can imagine I have studied a lot and learnt a lot about immune mediated disease and according to all the specialist I dealt with (and these are the best in their field) they all believe there is a genetic predisposition in dogs that get it. We believe one of mine contracted it from Stibestrol and the other from Rimodyl. Of course we have no proof of this, but everything points to it. One of my bitches died, the other (much to the almost disbelief of the specialists) lived and is still with us, thankfully. We desexed her after this, even though she was intended to be our foundation bitch. At one stage I considered using one of her sons (born prior to her illness as her breeder's litter) over a completely unrelated bitch, but decided the risk was just not worth it. He has still never had a sick day in his life. Personally, I would not do it. I could not live with myself if a puppy person rang to tell me that their dog had contracted IAHA or IMT. I wouldn't lie, but telling someone you bred knowing these diseases are existing in the line would make me feel like the worst person... but that's just me and I don't judge others. For me there are enough unknown issues that can and do occur in breeding that I would not tempt fate with what I know is already there. I wish you all the best with your dilemma :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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