Figure 8

[paddles]

Hi, I have problems with the figure 8, milo tends to not swing on the left turns, let alone when we are swinging left around the "pole" can anyone give advice on training the figure 8, and what the judges look for, what I'm going to lose points on the figure 8?

thanks.

Edited February 13, 2013 by paddles

[Cleo's Corgwyn]

OK, a couple of quick suggestions. You work really well together, but he does seem to focus on your hands a lot, so figure out a position for your hands, and keep them there. Secondly, especially given his height and focus, think about using your body to telegraph your turns a bit; ie turn your shoulders in the direction you are about to turn. So if you are turning a tight circle to your left, twist your left shoulder back a bit so he can see that is where you are about to go.

I'm sure that you'll get plenty more good advice, but that is two things that have worked for us in trialling.

[paddles]

OK, a couple of quick suggestions. You work really well together, but he does seem to focus on your hands a lot, so figure out a position for your hands, and keep them there. Secondly, especially given his height and focus, think about using your body to telegraph your turns a bit; ie turn your shoulders in the direction you are about to turn. So if you are turning a tight circle to your left, twist your left shoulder back a bit so he can see that is where you are about to go.

I'm sure that you'll get plenty more good advice, but that is two things that have worked for us in trialling.

Hmmm, I'll try to telegraph my moves more, he's focused on my hands cause there is food in them.. lol.

a question, (particularly if someone can link a video???) when we do a tight left turn (not an about turn) should his hindquarters swing? or should he "walk" the turn???

[wuffles]

There are quite a lot of components to a Fo8 so they need separate training from plain heelwork.

Have you done any rear end awareness work with Milo, for example platform work? For Fo8 the dogs (especially big dogs) really need to understand that both their front and rear ends need to stay in heel position, so they need some rear end awareness. That would be my first point of call :)

I started off as Cleo says, telegraphing my moves in a huge way - then phase out the telegraphing as you cannot do it in trials (although I still make sure my shoulders turn with my body).

When a dog is on the outside, they need to speed up, and when on the inside, they need to slow down (and to complicate matters, we need to stay at the same speed!). So I also trained an exaggerated speed up/slow down. I would speed up when the dog was on the outside and throw rewards forward to encourage faster movement, then slow down with the dog on the inside and reward in position or slightly behind the dog. Of course once again, I then needed to phase out my speed differences.

Also, practice Fo8 without the dog. Make sure your speed is constant, your hands stay in the same place, your eyes are focussed on where you are going and your shoulders move correctly with the rest of your body. Video yourself if you can and be surprised at how you look :laugh:

And just one more tip re: the food in the hands... if you haven't already, start doing some training with remote rewards (eg. in a container in your bag, sending him to them) so that he gets the hint that he can still get rewarded without the food being right there in your hands ;)

[Cala]

There are quite a lot of components to a Fo8 so they need separate training from plain heelwork.

Have you done any rear end awareness work with Milo, for example platform work? For Fo8 the dogs (especially big dogs) really need to understand that both their front and rear ends need to stay in heel position, so they need some rear end awareness. That would be my first point of call :)

I started off as Cleo says, telegraphing my moves in a huge way - then phase out the telegraphing as you cannot do it in trials (although I still make sure my shoulders turn with my body).

When a dog is on the outside, they need to speed up, and when on the inside, they need to slow down (and to complicate matters, we need to stay at the same speed!). So I also trained an exaggerated speed up/slow down. I would speed up when the dog was on the outside and throw rewards forward to encourage faster movement, then slow down with the dog on the inside and reward in position or slightly behind the dog. Of course once again, I then needed to phase out my speed differences.

Also, practice Fo8 without the dog. Make sure your speed is constant, your hands stay in the same place, your eyes are focussed on where you are going and your shoulders move correctly with the rest of your body. Video yourself if you can and be surprised at how you look :laugh:

And just one more tip re: the food in the hands... if you haven't already, start doing some training with remote rewards (eg. in a container in your bag, sending him to them) so that he gets the hint that he can still get rewarded without the food being right there in your hands ;)

[Cala]

There are quite a lot of components to a Fo8 so they need separate training from plain heelwork.

Have you done any rear end awareness work with Milo, for example platform work? For Fo8 the dogs (especially big dogs) really need to understand that both their front and rear ends need to stay in heel position, so they need some rear end awareness. That would be my first point of call :)

I started off as Cleo says, telegraphing my moves in a huge way - then phase out the telegraphing as you cannot do it in trials (although I still make sure my shoulders turn with my body).

When a dog is on the outside, they need to speed up, and when on the inside, they need to slow down (and to complicate matters, we need to stay at the same speed!). So I also trained an exaggerated speed up/slow down. I would speed up when the dog was on the outside and throw rewards forward to encourage faster movement, then slow down with the dog on the inside and reward in position or slightly behind the dog. Of course once again, I then needed to phase out my speed differences.

Also, practice Fo8 without the dog. Make sure your speed is constant, your hands stay in the same place, your eyes are focussed on where you are going and your shoulders move correctly with the rest of your body. Video yourself if you can and be surprised at how you look :laugh:

And just one more tip re: the food in the hands... if you haven't already, start doing some training with remote rewards (eg. in a container in your bag, sending him to them) so that he gets the hint that he can still get rewarded without the food being right there in your hands ;)

Feed from your left hand. Have food in left pocket. Do not look at the dog when walking, when you do that the left shoulder drops and the dog will anticipate your next move and be lagging back awaiting a turn. Practice when the dog is on the outside going around the post ( I use the garbage bins) at a quicker pace, dog on the inside go a bit slower. Try and taper off the rewards. Reward at the end for a good try.

[Tassie]

OK, a couple of quick suggestions. You work really well together, but he does seem to focus on your hands a lot, so figure out a position for your hands, and keep them there. Secondly, especially given his height and focus, think about using your body to telegraph your turns a bit; ie turn your shoulders in the direction you are about to turn. So if you are turning a tight circle to your left, twist your left shoulder back a bit so he can see that is where you are about to go.

I'm sure that you'll get plenty more good advice, but that is two things that have worked for us in trialling.

Hmmm, I'll try to telegraph my moves more, he's focused on my hands cause there is food in them.. lol.

a question, (particularly if someone can link a video???) when we do a tight left turn (not an about turn) should his hindquarters swing? or should he "walk" the turn???

Ideally, he will be parallel to you the whole time he's heeling - so he's alongside you, facing the direction you're going. So that means yes, for U left about turns, and for and left turn and for FO8, he will need to move his butt to keep/get himself in line with you.

Hence what wuffles was saying about rear-end awareness/perch box work - dog has front feet on raised platform (large book or something will do) and learns to move around by moving his back legs sideways. This is a really good thing to do anyway for their general fitness and flexibility. I'm sure kikopup (Emily Larlham) has a U tube clip showing it, but there are others. Make sure you keep the dog balanced by working both directions - you'kll find one is easier for the dog -they are 'handed' too.

The other component, as has been said - is your smooth footwork. I find it easier to concentrate primarily on the crossing point, (works for Rally too :D ) and then work out the loops at each end - not too close to the "posts". Practising at home -youfirst without the og - but remember to leave room for the dog :laugh: - use a couple of stakes or something at each end, so that you can make them as wide as the 'person'.

[The Spotted Devil]

As mentioned, circle work (reward when changing direction as well), good footwork and rear end awareness can all help. Video if you can. Here's a video of my 2 renegades doing the latter - you can see my Dally struggles more than my Springer although they have both improved a lot since then...hope it helps :)

[Weasels]

We tried some perch work on a phone book the other day, now that Weez has started Rally. We encountered some unanticipated setbacks O.o

Hope it goes better for you Paddles!

[RubyStar]

TheLBD. We use an upside down cake tin here, indestructable! Well, at least for my dogs :p

[paddles]

Ok, it's not brilliant video, but gives an idea... we've had issues trying to turn this, into the really smart, fast moves, sit to sit.. due to lack of knowledge on my behalf, I don't know how to.. I did a little without the block, but it looked even crappier (is that a word) but you get the idea. It took a LOT of work to get milo to swing his rear end at all.

[paddles]

As mentioned, circle work (reward when changing direction as well), good footwork and rear end awareness can all help. Video if you can. Here's a video of my 2 renegades doing the latter - you can see my Dally struggles more than my Springer although they have both improved a lot since then...hope it helps :)

How did you insert the video like that??

[Tassie]

TSD - now we want to see perch work with the Supervisor Cat :laugh: .

Paddles - don't kow about others, but when I do perch work, I'm not incorporating sits. For me it's about the dog understanding that he can use his rear end to drive his body - that's the understanding he needs to have for good turns. Biomechanically, I'm not sure that the dog can get that understanding if he's also using his thigh muscles and leg joints to come essentially forward sit to stand, stand to sit.

When you look at TSD's vid, you'll see she's clicking the sideways movement. When I'm teaching this to puppy class people, I have them start slowly, and concentrate on marking/clicking and rewarding the sideways movement of the relevant back leg - the one the dog needs to execute the manoeuvre - so right hind for counter clockwise, left hind to move clockwise. And then progressively raise the criteria to get more steps. Because I'm impatient, I lure the movement, but pretty soon, when the dog gets it, I can just go to hand signals, and work towards standing away from the dog and having him drive around the box, so at part of the circle he comes between me and the box. All the time the front feet will be staying on the box. So the hind legs are doing the work.

Then you can also use the perch the way you're doing - stepping away from the dog going counter clockwise, so that he is coming into heel position, lining up with you - that's the mark/reward point.

I would be working fast sits as a completely separate exercise.

Not sure if any of that makes sense :laugh:

ETfix typose (as usual :D )

Edited February 15, 2013 by Tassie

[The Spotted Devil]

:laugh: Tassie, isn't he a scream! He's so food motivated too (this is a cat that eats raw pumpkin and resource guards toys!) I love how he stands on the phone book waiting for the treats to appear - I had no idea this was all going on until I looked at the video. Damn I miss them so much - can't wait to get home!!!

But yes, agree with Tassie - break it down - work on fast sits as a completely different exercise. I didn't get a chance to look at your video as I'm at LAX and my internet is a bit slow. But based on Tassie's reply I agree you can lure or shape. I love shaping this exercise because it's such a fun way to teach the dog about shaping - but there's nothing wrong with luring either. Getting the timing right on the click is HARD. Make sure you can click with good timing before you launch into it - try it when you're watching sport on TV and click when the ball (whatever shape) is at the top of the arc.