RedKelpie Posted February 10, 2013 Share Posted February 10, 2013 Hi guys, i finally got my kelpie pup and she is goregous! I cant complain with her at all she is everything i want :) Only downer is i think she is showing early signs of aggression.. When i play fight with her she gets very angry after about 2 mins and full on bites and does a very narky growl (one of those dont ** with me growls).. She has only been socialised properly with myself, my partner and his other 2 dogs (one of which is a good guard dog but not necessarily aggressive). The dogs all play together nicely but she lets the bigger ones know when shes had enough.. My question is, is this behaviour normal? I mean if she was a big dog doing this id probably crap myself and run lol.. Also if she is like this now at only 8 weeks old i am assuming she will get worse as she gets older? If so will the aggressive behaviour still be directed at me or will it be at strangers? I dont know why shes acting this way... Pretty much all kelpies i have met have been friendly.. Thanks in advance :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Weasels Posted February 10, 2013 Share Posted February 10, 2013 (edited) Find a good puppy school. Don't keep playing when the dog is getting overexcited, plus yelp & end the game the second that teeth touch skin. Edit - a classic (free!) e-book on puppy socialisation and teaching bite inhibition is "after you get your puppy" on dogstardaily.com :) Congrats on the new pup!! Edited February 10, 2013 by TheLBD Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
persephone Posted February 10, 2013 Share Posted February 10, 2013 Simple .. don't playfight. Play fetch...or play at teaching her tricks etc , instead :) I don't think I have ever done the playfight thing ...I am not a puppy, so there is no need to :) Our pups enjoy having me roll a ball , or wave a soft toy along for them to follow & grab ( then we practice "Give" ) ;) They also love "which hand"..as in which hand is the treat/toy in :D And they do enjoy the 'stand still for a minute whileMum plays with your feet/ears' which is always rewarded by a few seconds of enthusiasticeplay/praise . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fuzzy82 Posted February 10, 2013 Share Posted February 10, 2013 I doubt it's aggression. Aggression in young puppies is extremely rare. More likely she's getting over-excited. Play fighting with humans isn't something most people would encourage or recommend, it's much better that you teach her to tug with you, or chase and retrieve a ball. Also, there is a LOT more to socialisation than just playing with other dogs and people. She should be experiencing as many new environments and situations as possible. That also means different surfaces, sounds, sights, interacting with many different types of people, especially kids and mean, and also to learn to be around other dogs and people without having to interact with them, but instead focusing on you and doing as you ask. And while doing all this, the puppy should feel good about herself, she shouldn't be scared/worried/overwhelmed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jumabaar Posted February 10, 2013 Share Posted February 10, 2013 I dont rough house my Kelpie pups at all- they dont need any encouragement in that department :laugh: Instead I play games that involve them trying to catch me when I run away to earn a treat. As they understand the game it becomes much more random- I will casually be walking in the back yard then run away so that they chase me for their reward. It means they grow up learning to watch me rather than watch other distractions when we are out on walks because they never quite know when I am going to give them an opportunity to earn a reward by disappearing on them!! Generally my Kelpies thrive from 8 weeks of age trying to learn new tricks such as sit, drop, roll over, shake, wave etc. If you teach them lots of tricks now you will find it easier for them to learn new things when they get older! As soon as I see them getting frustrated (which at 8 weeks may be after 30 seconds) I give them something easy to do such as a watch and end the session. If they are naughty and jump up, growl, bark or generally chuck a tantrum (which can be pretty impressive) I walk away and stop interacting with them. They really thrive on attention so walking away from them into another room is one of the worst punishments my dogs have! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dancinbcs Posted February 10, 2013 Share Posted February 10, 2013 Why on earth would you play fight with an 8 week old puppy? Talk about a guaranteed way to make the puppy bite you. As the others have said, you should be teaching her commands and tricks at this age and also teaching her to be calm, not hyping her up. Teaching calm to an active working breed is very important. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Her Majesty Dogmad Posted February 10, 2013 Share Posted February 10, 2013 What is it with people who want to "play fight" with their dogs. Don't do it. I once picked up a cattle dog from some idiot who'd decided to start rescuing staffies - they had subsequently attacked the cattle dog - badly - more than once. Instead of keeping his own dog, he decided that the dog had to go. Anyhow, that sets the scene. He showed me the scars on his arms where they used to "play fight" - his favourite thing to do when he came home "after a few beers at the local club". It used to get a bit rough, he told me. I can't tell you what a traumatised dog I picked up. Traumatised from the dog attacks no doubt but equally traumatised by a terrible owner. When I was living in a house with a German Shepherd, one of my flatmate's friends used to like to come over, have a few drinks and then start "play fighting" with the poor, gentle GSD. She was not a willing participant but my flatmate would shove her forward when she tried to back away to allow the man to keep wrestling with her and slapping her around. I stopped them one time when I saw it, couldn't believe the owner would allow it and the guy would behave in that way - they said "oh but xxx loves to play with her and she doesn't mind". He deserved to be bitten and the dog DID mind, very much. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kavik Posted February 10, 2013 Share Posted February 10, 2013 I remember being worried when I first got Kaos. Though I didn't play fight with him he would growl and try to bite me when I picked him up and when I did his nails and tried to full on attack his collar when I first put it on and he barked at my other dogs as soon as he saw them. I think he may not have been handled a whole lot by the breeder as he was not too keen on being handled initially. There are other interactive games you can play with a dog instead of play fighting - you can play tug, or fetch. That way teeth are not as close to your skin, and they learn the rules of the game and to look to you for guidance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clyde Posted February 10, 2013 Share Posted February 10, 2013 The dogs all play together nicely but she lets the bigger ones know when shes had enough.. I agree with the others, that you dont need to play fight with your pup. I don't ever encourage it with puppies (or adults). However, I do think that the fact she she will tell the adult dogs that she's had enough that she could be quite a confident and assertive little girl. Do you mean she tells them off? My friends husband once lightly slapped my Staffords cheeks to get her to bite side to side after his hands. I've noticed it's something a lot of blokes do to rev them up to play bite. Each time I had to explain that especially with kids around, I can't let that behaviour be encouraged. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RedKelpie Posted February 10, 2013 Author Share Posted February 10, 2013 Thank you everyone for your input, i am new to the whole dog puppy thing, my specialty lies elsewhere-well i look after and play with my partners dogs but this is my first real puppy of my own and i am just doing what he told me to do. Now i know differently because i can see all of yous are experienced so starting today i wont play fight with her and i wont let my partner either. Instead i will roll balls for her and try to teach her fetch, playing tugging rope and also 'which hand' as bushwoman suggested. Please guys stay patient with me as i said im new to this and only going off what my partner has said and a few articles i have read (i havent read anything about play fighting though until now. @quacking Mad, when she has had enough with the other dogs she goes into a mental aggressive barking fit and they both sort of look at her funny and go and lie down somewhere. When she plays with the bigger dog she runs under her and bites/nips her legs and arms or she will hide under my recliner and when the other dog isnt looking she sticks her head out and nips her heels (kind of like what blue/red heelers do!) and her other favourite thing to do is pull her tail... Surprisingly though the other dog enjoys this but in saying that she is a bit dopey.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
persephone Posted February 10, 2013 Share Posted February 10, 2013 Red Kelpie ... you probably have not picked an 'ideal' first puppy, breed wise ..as , to stay calm and content , kelpies need LOTS of mental work, and quite a bit of physical work too ..they are very clever dogs , and do best with a lot of interaction/training /activities :) Is your pup from dogs used for working? You will get a better idea from reading this thread CLICK HERE :) and also, this thread CLICK HERE and this info CLICK CLICK and CLICK Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RedKelpie Posted February 10, 2013 Author Share Posted February 10, 2013 Thanks bushwoman,i actually specifically wanted a kelpie for that reason that they are high energy. I often go 'out bush'- swimming, mountain climbing, bushwalking etc and i need some energetic companion to go out with. Her parents are working dogs on a farm. I spend a few hours each day training her, playing outside (i let her chase me) and getting her used to the other pets in the house. My partner has a cattle dog so i know exactly what im in for and thats what i was hoping for :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Weasels Posted February 11, 2013 Share Posted February 11, 2013 *ahem* Puppy photos please! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jumabaar Posted February 11, 2013 Share Posted February 11, 2013 Thanks bushwoman,i actually specifically wanted a kelpie for that reason that they are high energy. I often go 'out bush'- swimming, mountain climbing, bushwalking etc and i need some energetic companion to go out with. Her parents are working dogs on a farm. I spend a few hours each day training her, playing outside (i let her chase me) and getting her used to the other pets in the house. My partner has a cattle dog so i know exactly what im in for and thats what i was hoping for :) Dont worry my Kelpie was my first dog and she has obedience, flyabll and herding titles! So long as you do a little research and keep asking questions you are going to have a great little mate. I personally find my Kelpies dont really like interacting with strange dogs- they play with dogs in their own 'pack' so to speak but just about all other dogs are ignored. So perhaps if you start seeing signs of her getting frustrated with other dogs take her out of the situation- perhaps pop her in a pen or crate so she learns that walking away from dogs she doesnt want to interact with is a better option then telling them off . My Kelpies will put themselves to bed as soon as my younger cousins walk onto the property because they have learnt that I wont let anything bother them in there. Her play does sound pretty normal though so I wouldnt worry about it too much. I also recommend a few treat toys where they have to work out how to get the food out- it makes them much better thinkers. Handy if they like fetch because they can work out how to get their own balls from behind couches etc :laugh: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RedKelpie Posted February 11, 2013 Author Share Posted February 11, 2013 Hey guys i was just thinking... Everyone has said dont play fight with puppies, no one however has said why? So why should you not play fight with puppies? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
minimax Posted February 11, 2013 Share Posted February 11, 2013 Hey guys i was just thinking... Everyone has said dont play fight with puppies, no one however has said why? So why should you not play fight with puppies? Read your first post ... it answers your question. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kavik Posted February 11, 2013 Share Posted February 11, 2013 (edited) Hey guys i was just thinking... Everyone has said dont play fight with puppies, no one however has said why? So why should you not play fight with puppies? Dogs play with their teeth - if you watch dogs play they wrestle and use inhibited biting, lunging etc. You don't want them to learn it is OK to put their mouth on people and bite. You can still play games where they get excited and aroused (this is fun!), but if you use a toy in this interaction then they can use their teeth on the toy instead of on your skin. Also you can use these games to teach them how you would like them to behave, from fast recalls to reliable stays, by teaching them when to take the toy, when to release the toy, to bring the toy back to you. ETA: Also from my experience, Kelpies tend to like distance from their handler, teaching my dog to be comfortable close to me and to play close to me has taken a while. Maybe your dog is not comfortable being handled in such a rough manner, not all dogs like it. My GSD is also a very gentle soul and will back off if anybody tries to be rough with him, he is very quiet and will just avoid the situation, but Kelpies tend to be a bit fiery if pushed! Edited February 11, 2013 by Kavik Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
persephone Posted February 11, 2013 Share Posted February 11, 2013 why should you not play fight with puppies? LOL You know part of the reason why ..it is why you posted .The pup plays as it would with another pup..bites/growls etc . AS the pup grows, and if this 'play' continues , there is a real risk of a decent bite ..and a stirred up dog. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vickie Posted February 11, 2013 Share Posted February 11, 2013 Hey guys i was just thinking... Everyone has said dont play fight with puppies, no one however has said why? So why should you not play fight with puppies? Everything you do with a puppy should be in preparation for later life. Start as you mean to go on. I would no more encourage my puppy to bite me than I would encourage it to poo on my bed. Neither is a behaviour I want from it in the future. Would it be acceptable if she initiated a game of play fighting with another person? A friend's child? Your child?Would it be acceptable when she's 10 weeks? 6 months? 6 years? There are 1000 constructive things to teach & do with a puppy, I would focus on those. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tassie Posted February 11, 2013 Share Posted February 11, 2013 Totally agree with what both kavik and Pers have said. Playing rough with a tug toy really helps the pup to be able to be excited, but be very clear about the rule - no teeth on human skin. I'd be playing with a long tug first, to help avoid 'accidental' teeth on skin contacts. The game totally stops if there should be any teeth on skin contacts, accidental or otherwise. Wait a little while, ignoring the pup, and either dropping or removing the tug toy - walk away in disgust (acting!). Then after a short break for the pup to reflect on what just happened, you can start again - but again, make it easy for the pup to avoid teeth on skin contact. There's a fair amount of technical skill in this, I have to say- and you might still be reinforcing the lesson long passt puppyhood - I still have to go through it sometimes with my feral almost 11 year old agility BC girl, who if I'm not careful with the length of the tug and how I present it, will sometimes forget to be careful :laugh: . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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