huski Posted February 13, 2013 Share Posted February 13, 2013 (edited) I think (correct me if I am wrong) your problem sounds a little bit different to the OP's becks as you are lacking prolonged/consistent focus in formal training and the OP is looking for ways to get her dog to behave around other dogs on walks etc (ie general manners). Depending on the goals each of you have I would approach them both differently. Teaching a dog to walk down the street nicely without getting over excited when it sees things like other dogs is not a situation I'd want to amp the dog up in and get them super excited for rewards (not saying I wouldn't use rewards, but the reward delivery would be aimed at a different purpose). In that situation I'd want to teach the dog to have a lower level of arousal and stay calm and chilled out. Asking for focus in formal training i.e. for obedience is where I'd be using a lot of drive work, wanting the dog super amped up and excited and aroused, how I'd deliver rewards would be different again. Reward for a lot of eye contact (I actually put it on a command i.e. 'watch' and use this in distraction work). Teach her the consequence of breaking eye contact to look at something distracting (i.e. it ends the game). Do you play any games with her to help build her drive or focus? Edited February 13, 2013 by huski Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lokelani Posted February 13, 2013 Share Posted February 13, 2013 Sorry to hijack, but I am having issues with my boy and his reactivness to other dogs. I use a half check on him and I do use corrections, although I think I say no at the same time, so I will try to avoid that... At obedience class, there are the odd dogs he will lunge at in an attempt to have a go, and if we are walking and another dog happens to be walking by, he will do the same thing, only much stronger and he really, really wants to get to the other dog. I will work on my corrections with him, but would the game playing suggested by Erny maybe work with him? He is 7 on Friday, and has not always been this way. It has only been the last maybe 2 years he is getting progressivly worse, so I am not sure if it is age related or not, but I really want to try to work on it with him because I want to be able to go to classes without being an outcast because Bosco is behaving badly! I am not talking about him being able to run free with other dogs either - all I want is to be able to take him around other dogs on lead without worrying about whether he will be a pain. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
corvus Posted February 13, 2013 Share Posted February 13, 2013 She can work with known distractions eg other dogs and people around club and last week was working and concentrating while dumbells were being thrown around but it is when we are in new places or places with lots of change eg walking through the village or town center Sounds like she's not comfortable with her surroundings, plus or perhaps leading to elevated arousal. My Erik went through this around the same age. For about 6 months he was a disaster whenever we took him somewhere new. Fortunately we had the positive interruptor, which we taught him when he was a puppy. He is generally nice and attentive now. Part of it was maturing and part of it ongoing habituation and training for self control and nice alternative behaviours. And teaching him to work any time, any place. Start small and easy, work up. Incidentally, it doesn't necessarily take a long time to sort a problem with triggers out using distance and rewards. It depends on how long it's been going on and how strong the reaction. Kivi used to lunge and bark when he saw another dog if he was on leash. Took me about 3 walks to get it well and truly under control using LAT from Control Unleashed. That was the end of that. Erik started when he was much younger, and he's more reactive and his arousal doesn't come down as fast as Kivi's. It took me about a week for him. Again, using LAT. Lots of people have quite fast success with LAT. And others don't. It depends on the nature of the problem and how bad it is and whether you need to do some more serious counter-conditioning or work on managing arousal first. If check chain corrections don't make an impact, then arousal is way too high. The dog is probably not capable of thinking very hard or making sensible choices. They are just reacting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
becks Posted February 13, 2013 Share Posted February 13, 2013 i got her when she was several months old and the breeder had taken her out to lots of places but also had allowed her to pull on the end of a long lead and get to play with whatever dogs she wanted to. So we are working on retraining for the lead walking, now she is much bigger and stronger. She is a dog that is easy to get excited, so I generally try to work in a calm way around her. On walks when she sees another dog she really wants to go over and see if it will be a new playmate (as my old giant is to old to play with her and the minis are to small for a proper game). Huski, think you read through to quickly, both OP and I are talking about when we are out with the dogs (I just said mine can focus as she does this at 'school' just not when outside for walks on lead) I wouldn't say she isn't comfortable in her surroundings - had her at a show on sunday and while benched, she was relaxed, people coud walk past, as could other dogs - no problem. However, once she was able to move around then she was getting more into what else was going on. we have worked on some self control so she can be sat shaking with excitment (eg before I release her for off lead runs) and she won't move until told - whereas when i got her she would jump out the car so fast the hand holding the lead would get punched into the car door, so we have made progress. She has also hit adolescence, which is the age this breed tend to end up in rescue as they push boundaries a lot more (and as I haven;t had her since a pup, we haven't got the foundation rules there that I would like to have). Anyway, was thinking about LAT but as it is something i haven't done before was trying to find a good link or 2 to read about it first. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lisey Posted February 13, 2013 Author Share Posted February 13, 2013 This is where a correction chain is handy. You need to show the dog that acting like a lunatic toward the other dog is not that nice, being right there next to mum is. So put correction chain on dog, have a nice loose leash. When the dog goes to run towards the other dog give it a sharp pop but do NOT vocally reprimand the dog. As soon as the pop works, call the dog back to you and reward. You give the dog a choice - come here for a reward or go over there and it's pretty average. The collar works independantly to you, the reason you do not verbally reprimand the dog is we want it to gravitate to you. Now being gruff or yelling will mean a dog that ignores you even more because it sees no reason to return to you. This way you're always the awesome person in the situation no matter what happens and the dog will more and more want your attention - because any direct interaction you give is rewarding. A thinking dog also has long term retention because life is black and white. When you want your dog to go say hello to another, put a command on it like "say hello' which is quite socially acceptable. The dog can wander over calmly and have a sniff, then should easily return to you when you say something like 'come on' and a pat when it returns to you. You remove the expectation of the dog thinking 'carry on hard enough I'll get what I want'. You now have set parameters where the dog may be able to go meet another dog. If it doesnt, it doesnt matter because it's ultimate rewarder - you - are right there. Your dogs are old enough to learn consequence to bad and unacceptable behavior. When a dog sees something as being more rewarding then you, you can either spend a long time being a social leper because you have to keep a long distance where your dog doesnt react and hope you're rewarding enough, or you can proof your dogs behavior by showing it consequence to unacceptable actions then reward the hell out of it for doing the right thing. Your choice. I can tell you what all my clients prefer and I have not traumatised one dog yet. Thank you for this information. I have him in a half check at the moment but I will swap him over to a full check and see how that goes. There isn't any issues using these at ANKC affiliated grounds is there? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lisey Posted February 13, 2013 Author Share Posted February 13, 2013 I think (correct me if I am wrong) your problem sounds a little bit different to the OP's becks as you are lacking prolonged/consistent focus in formal training and the OP is looking for ways to get her dog to behave around other dogs on walks etc (ie general manners). Depending on the goals each of you have I would approach them both differently. Teaching a dog to walk down the street nicely without getting over excited when it sees things like other dogs is not a situation I'd want to amp the dog up in and get them super excited for rewards (not saying I wouldn't use rewards, but the reward delivery would be aimed at a different purpose). In that situation I'd want to teach the dog to have a lower level of arousal and stay calm and chilled out. Asking for focus in formal training i.e. for obedience is where I'd be using a lot of drive work, wanting the dog super amped up and excited and aroused, how I'd deliver rewards would be different again. Reward for a lot of eye contact (I actually put it on a command i.e. 'watch' and use this in distraction work). Teach her the consequence of breaking eye contact to look at something distracting (i.e. it ends the game). Do you play any games with her to help build her drive or focus? My problem is both - we attend formal training now where he sooks and carries on at the start - he calmed down during the training but it still didn't take much for him to lose focus on me. And on our daily walks we don't always see other dogs, hence why he does better than but when we do it's the same type of thing. I know that at the moment he has a higher value of other dogs than he does for me and this is what I want to change. :) He is a very excitable dog but I'm sure we will learn together how to keep him relaxed. I would actually love to get into odediance trials with him down the track. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
huski Posted February 13, 2013 Share Posted February 13, 2013 (edited) My problem is both - we attend formal training now where he sooks and carries on at the start - he calmed down during the training but it still didn't take much for him to lose focus on me. And on our daily walks we don't always see other dogs, hence why he does better than but when we do it's the same type of thing. I know that at the moment he has a higher value of other dogs than he does for me and this is what I want to change. :) He is a very excitable dog but I'm sure we will learn together how to keep him relaxed. I would actually love to get into odediance trials with him down the track. Obedience is lots of fun! There are obviously many different ways to do things, but I look at training loose leash walking and basic manners when we are out and about (on a walk or going to the shops or whatever) as something quite different to formal training such as obedience. When I'm walking my dogs down the street I want chilled, relaxed dogs that aren't giving me stacks of focus or looking around for or expecting a high value reward, because I want their arousal levels to be low. For doing more formal training like obedience I don't use physical corrections, I want a super motivated dog that shows me unwavering focus and lots of arousal and excitement. Some people train the same way or with the same expectations in both different settings, but for me, training loose leash walk and training formal heel work (for eg) are two quite separate things, so I'd approach them both quite differently. Edited February 13, 2013 by huski Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
corvus Posted February 16, 2013 Share Posted February 16, 2013 There are some posts about LAT on the forum if you look around. Try the reactive dogs thread? Here's a video: This person is marking for orienting to the handler, which is not really a purist's approach, which is to mark when the dog looks at the other dog (or whatever the trigger is). Later in the video they show using it on the road, but you can see the dog is quite stressed. I would not have used it there. I would have switched to classical conditioning and just fed and tried to get as much distance as possible, which is hard on a narrow path. This one also isn't bad: , although same comments apply. I have a video somewhere that shows Erik playing LAT with one of his triggers. I won't post it because inevitably someone who doesn't like me will attack it without having a clue what I'm doing and why. You can PM me if you want to see it. E is advanced, though, and I don't cue much in the video. He knows what to do and I switch from rewarding uncued LAT to rewarding an autodown to rewarding whatever else he's doing that is nice. He also has a history of winding up to get me to interact with him, so I ignore some things I wouldn't in another dog. Because I'm not marking anymore he gets a reward when he looks back at the end of the sequence. The LAT sequence should go dog looks at trigger->mark -> dog orients to handler -> reward. If the dog doesn't orient after the marker you're too close or they are too aroused. In my video E is riled about softball practice in the field. He hates ball games, particularly if they involve children. Last week we skirted the same field with the kids at softball practice and he barely looked at them. I didn't give him any reminders or tell him what to do. He was completely fine and I can be sure because he was happy to work on his most mentally challenging tricks. Sometimes dogs look comfortable with their surroundings when they are actually not. It pays to find ways to ask them if they are completely comfortable. If they can't concentrate, I doubt they are completely comfortable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lisey Posted February 18, 2013 Author Share Posted February 18, 2013 Thanks Corvus. We have obedience again tonight (if the rain stops). Hopefully I will see another small improvement. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lisey Posted March 23, 2013 Author Share Posted March 23, 2013 Yay!! :D So impressed with Book today - he has showed me he can be calm and focused on me. I've just started taking him to a second obedience class a week as I didn't feel once a week was enough for him. It's through a different company but have some of the same trainers which is good as I didn't want to be training different things on different days. He was still a bit of a pain but nowhere near what he has previously been like. It took a bit for him to settle in but by the end he was sitting close to lots of other dogs and wasn't even looking at them. I don't know if it was because it was daytime instead of nights (like the other class) or possibly this class today - they put us in Intermediate as knew we attended classes elsewhere and didn't need to start at the beginning - to see if he fitted in - the other dogs were calmer also - and I think this really helped. The Monday night class we go to we are only in Class 1 extension and all the other dogs are quite young and rowdy. The highlight was when we did a recall with 6 dogs on either side and calling them down the middle (Book on a long lead) - he stayed when I told him - only had eyes for me - and ran down and sat in front of me when I told him to come - not a glance at anyone else! He was probably the 2nd best of of 13 dogs for that exercise. Very happy. He has made me proud today. Here's hoping we can keep improving :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lisey Posted March 25, 2013 Author Share Posted March 25, 2013 Tonight I feel like crying... One step forward two back. He just wasn't into it tonight. Distracted, sniffing the ground, not listening, trying to say hi to every dog. There were some parts he did good but mostly just didn't listen to me tonight. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nekhbet Posted March 26, 2013 Share Posted March 26, 2013 Don't get too upset, it's a dog. Just like us they sometimes have off days, I have plenty of people who come to dog school and have the same thing happen. Hell, I'll travel over an hour to train my own and they sit there like, meh, can't be bothered. Think of the long term bigger picture and it will happen. Just chalk it up to experience ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lisey Posted March 26, 2013 Author Share Posted March 26, 2013 Yeah I know.... Just sucks when you think you made progress and then go backwards. Going to do a lot more work with him over the long weekend as no official training on - I've just bought a long lead for him so we can do lots of recall training too in different environments. I really enjoy training with him most of the time, he is a smart dog. He just seems to switch off when we are waiting our turn or not moving.... Hopefully he behaves for his breeder in 2 weeks!! He is going to his first show. I'm sure she will bring him into line, she has had plenty more experience with Staffords than me :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lisey Posted April 22, 2013 Author Share Posted April 22, 2013 (edited) I'm here to brag tonight :D So proud of Booker. He was promoted to Class 2 in obedience starting next week!!! Yay! He has really settled down over the last couple of weeks. I think by going twice a week has helped too. Plus it's his birthday today - 1 year old! Yay for Bookie!! Edited April 22, 2013 by Lisey Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tassie Posted April 22, 2013 Share Posted April 22, 2013 Nice brag Lisey ...and happy birthday to your Bookie :-)! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lisey Posted April 23, 2013 Author Share Posted April 23, 2013 Nice brag Lisey ...and happy birthday to your Bookie :-)! Thanks :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ruthless Posted April 23, 2013 Share Posted April 23, 2013 Is your dog an Amstaff? He sounds like my Bruno. It might be a long journey, but it'll be worth it in the end! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lisey Posted April 23, 2013 Author Share Posted April 23, 2013 He is a SBT :) I've got Bruno's page on my fb - he is so good looking! Love seeing all the photos you post. He seems like a well behaved young man :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ruthless Posted April 23, 2013 Share Posted April 23, 2013 Oh funny! He is a great dog. He has this stupid leash reactivity nonsense though and it's frustrating because people think he's a monster when he's actually the total opposite. He's never ever hurt another animal. I'm finding Devon is working to keep his focus at the moment. He just loves that processed lips and arsehole! :laugh: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
megan_ Posted April 23, 2013 Share Posted April 23, 2013 OT but have you tried "look at that" ruthless? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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