Guide Dog Dies In Hot Car

[Are You Serious Jo]

I just don't think compassion for dogs and compassion for humans has to be mutually exclusive. No one has made excuses, they have given possible reasons though.

[mantis]

How on earth does empathy equate to brushing something under the carpet? How does it equate to a double standard? How does it equate to ducking responsibility?

Brushing it under the carpet and ducking responsibility - Because so many of you are either blaming something else i.e. memory lapse, forgetfulness, Forgotten baby syndrome, wrong type of vehicle etc and expecting everyone to have empathy with him when the plain and simple fact is he was negligent in leaving the dog in the car in soaring temperatures to die a horrible and painful death. and he needs to be held accountable for this act of negligence as the outcome of this negligence killed the dog in his care. This was a special dog, a valuable guide dog who had so much potential to do so much good in the community and the loss of this dog to the guide dog association is huge and will set them back both in time and financially.

Double standards as in other threads negligent people who caused a dog's death are crucified and hung out to dry, with little or no empathy or compassion and heaps of outpouring of sympathy and condolences for the poor dead dog, and rightly so I might add.

What makes this case so different?? Why do the majority of posters empathise with the person whose negligent actions caused the death of this dog? It seems that a few of you are relating it to personal experiences of having forgotten your dogs are in the car. I personally don't understand how that can happen. I am always extra vigilant when my dogs or grand kids are in the car, and if I ever needed to transport them during extreme heat (will only ever do it if absolutely necessary) I am always on high alert and always make sure I am prepared (water etc) in case of a breakdown. When you work with service dogs you don't have a choice of when you should transport as it is part of the job to transport in all weather conditions and during the extreme weather conditions, the handlers/carers should be in a heightened state of alert/awareness anyway and should be more responsible and reliable than the general public as part of their job.

I have been a longtime supporter of guide dogs and I think they do a terrific job, but if this guy does not lose his job and they don't implement more rigorous procedures for transporting of their dogs, I will rethink that support for sure as that to me would send a message they don't value their dogs as highly as they should. Lets look at the name of their organisation "Guide Dogs" - they are their whole reason for existing and if any of these wonderful dogs die due to the negligence of their handler/carer, then that handler/carer needs to pay the price of losing their job. In my mind and likeminded others, empathy doesn't come into it.

Excellent post.

[casowner]

now stay on topic jo or you will get your hand slapped as apparently the only valid opinions are the ones rammed down your throat.

[raz]

empathy doesn't come into it.

Woah Woah Woah. OK I'm backing out of this thread. That's the most insane thing I have ever seen on this forum.

Thanks for giving me a badly needed laugh today with the bolded comment :laugh: . Man I have only been a member for just over 12months and not a very frequent poster, but have read many many posts/threads over the years prior to joining and a longtime, prolific poster like yourself, who has participated in some lively debates, says my comment is the most insane you have ever seen on this forum, please :laugh:

If empathy had nothing to do with it, as you claimed, you would not have posted to start with. Your empathy obviously lies with the dog, which is fair enough, and you obviously have no empathy for humans - that's fine. But your pointing the finger at people who expressed sympathy for the dog handler and then saying empathy has nothing to do with it Does. Not. Compute.

I thought you were backing out of this thread. :D I think you just like to twist things around - we can argue the point but I won't :D

No one needs to twist anything for you, love. Youre doing that yourself. I applauded you for your empathy for the dog and youre still going. Good job

[Brookestar]

Guide Dogs WA has said he had two dogs with him, the NEVER transport dogs in the backseats of cars, and yes it was a senior instructor, they have verified that much. From my cousin ALL Guide Dog Trainers use purpose built vehciles, and we do know he had two dogs. General staff members would NEVER take dogs out of the centre just for the sake of it. Vets are bought to the centres if necessary and if being transported to a vet hospital, they would be taken out by kennel staff, who have the same level of responsiblities. In that case one staff member would normally be with the dog, while another one was driving. Volunteers who take dogs are only puppy raiers and puppy raisers are simply foster parents, who train dogs in nothing more than pet dog basic obedience. They are essentail for the organisations but ANYONE can be a puppy raiser, they do not require any previous experience with dogs.

ALL Guide Dog programs have EXTENSIVE processes in place to ensure the welfare of dogs being transported in vechiles. Puppy raisers are not allowed to demand access and if refused they cannot just leave the dog outside or in the car, while they go in the place. They MUST take the puppy home before they enter the place again, if they need to be there.

ALL of these programs are ACCREDITED by the International Guide Dog Federation. They have extensive requirements that must be met, not just in terms of training the dogs but also in the care and welfare of the dogs. That includes transporting dogs in vechiles. They are also required to meet state government regulations on a number of different things. They are responsible to a number of different organisations. While the federal disability discrimination Act gives access rights to Dogs assisting people with disabilities, state government legislation in ALL states gives it ONLY to dogs from certain programs that are approved and regulated by the state, they also give it to FULLY QUALIFIED TRAINERS from the same said programs. Governments have not simply said, someone said they could train a dog to help a blind person so they can do anything. They have access rights on the basis of PROVING that these dogs are suitable for being in such places and PROVING that the training and kennelling and the like of dogs is up to standard. There are times when they can be given a partial exemption from PARTS of standards for keeping dogs, but only if they can PROVE that they have something, equivilent or better for the dogs. The kennels and other things can be inspected by the RSPCA at any time, just like any animal organisation can be.

ALL of the programs are re-accredited by the International Guide Dog Federation every five years, complaints can be taken at any time and it can be revoked at any time. That is on the basis of not just extensive paper work to prove that ALL necessary polices and procedures are in place, records for dogs health and welfare are in place, etc, but also site visits for multiple days for international organistaions to ensure they dont' just con a local program to accredit them. They are accredited by different groups every time. It will be interesting to see what the International Guide Dog Federation does. One could only wish that Assistance Dogs International haf half the standards of the International Guide Dog Federation. Not a bad organisation, but not nearly the same high standards, but that is not for this post.

The International Guide Dog Federation also accredits the trainers and instructors. They sit international exams of both a theoretical and practical basis, and must have trained and placed a certain number of dogs. The same is not true of Assistance Dog programs who can effectively employ anyone and they have no training or accreditation standards for trainers. The accreditation process of ADI does require them to show that trainers have some training and expereince, but there are on minimum standards. That does not mean all such programs have no standards, but they are very very different and not the same as an accredited and credentialed Guide Dog Instructor, which is internationally recognised.

[labadore]

I just don't think compassion for dogs and compassion for humans has to be mutually exclusive. No one has made excuses, they have given possible reasons though.

There is a fine line between an excuse and a reason :D Within the context of this thread, I believe the "reasons" being offered are excuses.

[Are You Serious Jo]

Just because people don't pick up their pitchforks and build a pyre doesn't mean they can't tell the difference between a reason and an excuse.

[raz]

I just don't think compassion for dogs and compassion for humans has to be mutually exclusive. No one has made excuses, they have given possible reasons though.

There is a fine line between an excuse and a reason :D Within the context of this thread, I believe the "reasons" being offered are excuses.

I dont think you even know what youre talking about. You confuse empathy for a human as an excuse.

[labadore]

Guide Dogs WA has said he had two dogs with him, the NEVER transport dogs in the backseats of cars, and yes it was a senior instructor, they have verified that much. From my cousin ALL Guide Dog Trainers use purpose built vehciles, and we do know he had two dogs. General staff members would NEVER take dogs out of the centre just for the sake of it. Vets are bought to the centres if necessary and if being transported to a vet hospital, they would be taken out by kennel staff, who have the same level of responsiblities. In that case one staff member would normally be with the dog, while another one was driving. Volunteers who take dogs are only puppy raiers and puppy raisers are simply foster parents, who train dogs in nothing more than pet dog basic obedience. They are essentail for the organisations but ANYONE can be a puppy raiser, they do not require any previous experience with dogs.

ALL Guide Dog programs have EXTENSIVE processes in place to ensure the welfare of dogs being transported in vechiles. Puppy raisers are not allowed to demand access and if refused they cannot just leave the dog outside or in the car, while they go in the place. They MUST take the puppy home before they enter the place again, if they need to be there.

ALL of these programs are ACCREDITED by the International Guide Dog Federation. They have extensive requirements that must be met, not just in terms of training the dogs but also in the care and welfare of the dogs. That includes transporting dogs in vechiles. They are also required to meet state government regulations on a number of different things. They are responsible to a number of different organisations. While the federal disability discrimination Act gives access rights to Dogs assisting people with disabilities, state government legislation in ALL states gives it ONLY to dogs from certain programs that are approved and regulated by the state, they also give it to FULLY QUALIFIED TRAINERS from the same said programs. Governments have not simply said, someone said they could train a dog to help a blind person so they can do anything. They have access rights on the basis of PROVING that these dogs are suitable for being in such places and PROVING that the training and kennelling and the like of dogs is up to standard. There are times when they can be given a partial exemption from PARTS of standards for keeping dogs, but only if they can PROVE that they have something, equivilent or better for the dogs. The kennels and other things can be inspected by the RSPCA at any time, just like any animal organisation can be.

ALL of the programs are re-accredited by the International Guide Dog Federation every five years, complaints can be taken at any time and it can be revoked at any time. That is on the basis of not just extensive paper work to prove that ALL necessary polices and procedures are in place, records for dogs health and welfare are in place, etc, but also site visits for multiple days for international organistaions to ensure they dont' just con a local program to accredit them. They are accredited by different groups every time. It will be interesting to see what the International Guide Dog Federation does. One could only wish that Assistance Dogs International haf half the standards of the International Guide Dog Federation. Not a bad organisation, but not nearly the same high standards, but that is not for this post.

The International Guide Dog Federation also accredits the trainers and instructors. They sit international exams of both a theoretical and practical basis, and must have trained and placed a certain number of dogs. The same is not true of Assistance Dog programs who can effectively employ anyone and they have no training or accreditation standards for trainers. The accreditation process of ADI does require them to show that trainers have some training and expereince, but there are on minimum standards. That does not mean all such programs have no standards, but they are very very different and not the same as an accredited and credentialed Guide Dog Instructor, which is internationally recognised.

I am even more sickened now with this revelation in your post that I have bolded So he takes one of the dogs out of the vehicle and leaves the other one in it. My god, he intentionally left the poor dog in the vehicle, he is a senior instructor who should have known better I just want to scream and cry at this totally preventable, totally unnecessary, totally cruel and totally horrendous death of this special dog. That poor poor dog I need to take a break from this thread, I actually feel ill

[mantis]

I just don't think compassion for dogs and compassion for humans has to be mutually exclusive. No one has made excuses, they have given possible reasons though.

There is a fine line between an excuse and a reason :D Within the context of this thread, I believe the "reasons" being offered are excuses.

I dont think you even know what youre talking about. You confuse empathy for a human as an excuse.

Have you read Brookestars posts? There is no excuse or reason for what this trainer did. I'll leave my empathy for the poor, dead dog, not the negligent trainer.

[Brookestar]

No one has said it doesn't matter. If people have additional information then they should cite their source - stand behind what they are saying.

Also, if people come with additional facts that change the circumstances, they shouldn't do the whole screaming thing - they have info that other people don't.

Megan the additional information, which Guide Dogs WA have said publically is not what this is really about.

For me COMMON SENSE says most of it and that is what others are also saying, this guy was WORKING, and when WORKING one has EXTRA responsiblities, that do not apply to pet dog owners. I respect the perspective you bring as a pet dog owner, but I know that I expect EVERYONE at my vet clinic, even the admin worker to ensure the welfare of my dog at all times. Hence EVERYONE in the Guide Dog Association has responsiblities to ensure the welfare of the dogs. In my job I have responsiblities, not to make mistakes that the AVERAGE person might make. EVERYONE has that in a job. Even if one does not work, as competent adults one has some knowledge that different professionals and different organisations have responsibilities.

Common sense says that if I leave my dog in the care of someone else, I expect them to care for it. I will not accept a vet clinic forgetting to give medications, I will not accept a pet transport company "accidently" killing my dog, by leaving it in a hot car. About 5 years ago a pilot forgot to ensure the airconditioning was on in the animal hold of the aircraft. 2 dogs survived, one a pug, died, which is not suprising as they cannot regulate body temperature the way other dogs were. The pilot was immediately sacked and from what I heard had limitations placed on the commercial pilots licence by the CASA. The other pilot who was not responsible, but was none the less in the cabin, was severely reprimanded, fined and demoted. It was said that he should have ensured his suprior officer did the right thing.

The RSPCA transports thousands of dogs every year. What would happen if they just accidently left them in hot cars. Guide Dogs are an organisation that MUST be responsible for the care of dogs. And yes, that care, MUST be to a higher standard, than I as a pet dog owner would be required to meet, just as EVERYONE in a hospital has some level of responsibility for the welfare of patietnts. If necessary, one just has to tell a more senior medical person. Doesn't mean an admin worker can watch a person die, and not tell a doctor or nurse, just because they are an admin worker. ALL staff and volunteers at Guide Dog programs have responsiblities and common sense says this.

While I have recieved emails from Guide Dogs WA due to my assocations with them, I take this in part as common sense, my partner is a Child Care worker, and DOES transport children. She can't just accidently leave them in cars, just because they are being quiet. And no she would not have parents say, I understand it was a mistake. Whether a volunteer or a staff member, in any role they have HIGHER levels of respnsiblity and alwasy will have due to the nature of the organisation, than the average person has with pet dogs. But yes, I do expect a Guide Dog instructor to have higher levels of responsibility. My mothers volunteers in hospitals, she has to inform nurses at a minimum if something she notices seems wrong. She had a whole two hour training session before starting, that basicaly said just that. She can't just say, I'm not a nurse or doctor so I don't have to tell anyone. Common sense must apply. She must call someone else immeidately, stay with them and if necessary just try and comfort them. Sure a nurse MIGHT be walking past in 5 minutes to do observations, but they don't wait for that nurse they put something in place now. If you were visiting a family or friend in hospital and noticed something amiss you go and tell someone immediatley, you don't just wait for them to pick it up. And you expect that of EVERYONE who works in the hospital. If you go the nurses station and only an admin worker is there, you expect them to find someone who can help you if they can't.

[persephone]

raz- I'm thinking along the same lines as you.

To those really confused by empathy ..

there are good and honest DOLers who have lost their precious dogs thru accidents/mishaps etc. Do you think they should never be allowed to own another dog? Do you think they should be charged ? Do you not have a tiny inkling of how someone responsible for an animal feels when that animal dies under their care?

I hope you never ever get that feeling of having something happen to an animal or person in your care . I really do.

[raz]

I just don't think compassion for dogs and compassion for humans has to be mutually exclusive. No one has made excuses, they have given possible reasons though.

There is a fine line between an excuse and a reason :D Within the context of this thread, I believe the "reasons" being offered are excuses.

I dont think you even know what youre talking about. You confuse empathy for a human as an excuse.

Have you read Brookestars posts? There is no excuse or reason for what this trainer did. I'll leave my empathy for the poor, dead dog, not the negligent trainer.

Yea I have. The same as I read Willows posts, and yours, and the people who have said they accidentally left a dog in the car. Until Guide Dogs Australia comes out with an official report its all fluff in the wind

[labadore]

raz- I'm thinking along the same lines as you.

To those really confused by empathy ..

there are good and honest DOLers who have lost their precious dogs thru accidents/mishaps etc. Do you think they should never be allowed to own another dog? Do you think they should be charged ? Do you not have a tiny inkling of how someone responsible for an animal feels when that animal dies under their care?

I hope you never ever get that feeling of having something happen to an animal or person in your care . I really do.

Please stop confusing pet ownership with working with service dogs. They are completely different!! Working with service dogs is a job/profession. This is about a senior guide dog employee whose negligence caused the death of a dog in his care. He has been trained to a high level in the proper care of these dogs. He failed one of these dogs, big time and caused its agnosing death. He should lose his job and not ever be allowed to work with service dogs again. Again this is nothing to do with pet ownership, I don't understand why people keep drawing these parallels

[mantis]

I just don't think compassion for dogs and compassion for humans has to be mutually exclusive. No one has made excuses, they have given possible reasons though.

There is a fine line between an excuse and a reason :D Within the context of this thread, I believe the "reasons" being offered are excuses.

I dont think you even know what youre talking about. You confuse empathy for a human as an excuse.

Have you read Brookestars posts? There is no excuse or reason for what this trainer did. I'll leave my empathy for the poor, dead dog, not the negligent trainer.

Yea I have. The same as I read Willows posts, and yours, and the people who have said they accidentally left a dog in the car. Until Guide Dogs Australia comes out with an official report its all fluff in the wind

So you think Brookestar is lying?

[raz]

So you think Brookestar is lying?

LOL. The same old crap from you. Hallucinate things in posts that arent there.

Here's a plan - ring up HR at Guide Dogs Australia, give them your name and demand a guy in a grab from a newspaper article be sacked, hung, drawn and quartered. Come back and tell us what the response was.

[persephone]

I don't understand why people keep drawing these parallels

ermmmm

perhaps it is because they are all HUMANS ? Fallible and feeling humans...that's all.

I CAN UNDERSTAND some of what he is feeling. .it's not difficult ..it is merely acknowledging/understanding another human's pain, whether they are criminal or not , victim or not ...very basic .

Working with service dogs is a job/profession.

..and I am very proud of the years I spent in that profession!

Until Guide Dogs Australia comes out with an official report its all fluff in the wind

yep.

[mantis]

So you think Brookestar is lying?

LOL. The same old crap from you. Hallucinate things in posts that arent there.

Here's a plan - ring up HR at Guide Dogs Australia, give them your name and demand a guy in a grab from a newspaper article be sacked, hung, drawn and quartered. Come back and tell us what the response was.

I'm wondering why you & your mates, haven't responded to Brookestars posts.

I have a theory on why, but then I am a cynic.

[Are You Serious Jo]

So you think Brookestar is lying?

LOL. The same old crap from you. Hallucinate things in posts that arent there.

Here's a plan - ring up HR at Guide Dogs Australia, give them your name and demand a guy in a grab from a newspaper article be sacked, hung, drawn and quartered. Come back and tell us what the response was.

I'm wondering why you & your mates, haven't responded to Brookestars posts.

I have a theory on why, but then I am a cynic.

Really, you are going to start throwing around that? It doesn't matter what Brockstar said, I still feel the same, it was a tragic accident and I won't be calling for the guy to be executed just yet thanks.

[raz]

So you think Brookestar is lying?

LOL. The same old crap from you. Hallucinate things in posts that arent there.

Here's a plan - ring up HR at Guide Dogs Australia, give them your name and demand a guy in a grab from a newspaper article be sacked, hung, drawn and quartered. Come back and tell us what the response was.

I'm wondering why you & your mates, haven't responded to Brookestars posts.

I have a theory on why, but then I am a cynic.

who are me and my mates? I havent responded to brookestar because Im not buying into the My cousin said syndrome. Got anything else to say?