Guide Dog Dies In Hot Car

[labadore]

from what I have read on this forum, I certainly don't feel it is a forum full of dog lovers

I don't like the term dog lover ....

I think what may come across in posts on DOL is that there are those experienced and long term owners of /workers with dogs who see things with more pragmatism.

Some see dogs for what they are- a wonderfully complex and beautiful animal with whom we can communicate well, which returns our friendship, and which can work with us ,and adapt to our needs :)

not furry 'people' or surrogate children ....personally I feel that takes away so much of what 'dog' means to me .

To me .. 'dog' means power,and a wonderful gift of senses to use in their world .It means speed and reactions and adaptability, and skill. My enjoyment of things dog includes being with them in a 'pack' situation - watching them hunt or work sheep, guide a visually impaired person, and adjust their behaviours to accomodate humans who behave a bit differently, or have less mobility .

They are just amazing creatures , and I could not be without them in my life.

They are not human ,they are animals - complex and intuitive :) :)

The terribly sad loss of a trainee Guide Dog ...yes it did happen because of the actions of a human .not on purpose, not deliberate neglect , but because he is human, and his brain let him down.

I completely understand what are you saying and maybe inferring that I feel towards dogs as "furry 'people' or surrogate children" and think they are human, not animals. Nothing can be further from the truth. I love dogs for being dogs, plain and simple. My dogs are an extremely important part of my family and have been for many many years, but I never mistake the fact that they are dog and probably why I love them like I do.

With regards to your statement

The terribly sad loss of a trainee Guide Dog ...yes it did happen because of the actions of a human .not on purpose, not deliberate neglect , but because he is human, and his brain let him down.

I do have an issue with "not deliberate neglect". Below is definition of neglect and I believe very apt for this situation. I have said all along this person's negligence caused the death of this poor dog who he was responsible for/had a duty of care for. He needs to be held accountable.

neg·li·gence

[neg-li-juhns] Show IPA

noun

1. the quality, fact, or result of being negligent; neglect: negligence in discharging one's responsibilities.

2. an instance of being negligent: a downfall brought about by many negligences.

3. Law. the failure to exercise that degree of care that, in the circumstances, the law requires for the protection of other persons or those interests of other persons that may be injuriously affected by the want of such care.

[Sheridan]

Why else would they be on here if it wasnt for their dogs? You just assume that those who expressed sympathy for the man couldnt give a rat's bum about the dog boiling to death in a car. You know, maybe it's just too painful for some people to write about. That's why there is a closed animal cruelty subforum - because some people find it too difficult to cope with.

I understand it could be a sensitive issue for people to write about. However, I was only referring to the posters who had taken the time to express empathy for the guy in this thread without expressing any sympathy for the poor dog. which if this is a forum of dog lovers as you put it, I thought that would be a normal thing to do in a thread like this and have seen this done in many other threads, so why not this one.

I wouldn't have thought that needed to be stated on a forum full of dog lovers but perhaps you like things to be spelled out in detail.

[Acacia]

"Nutter" because of the lack of compassion for the suffering of a fellow human. Ever heard of the saying "There but for the grace of God go I???" I hope those who are baying for this blokes blood can take the judgement if they ever make a mistake.

My friend who forgot her dog in the car??? She pays for it every day of her life, and she LOVED that dog, truly loved her. I saw her suffering, and i wouldn't wish that pain on another person....she fully understands the suffering her dog went through, which compounds her guilt.

See Donatella, you just admitted you have forgotten to feed your dogs dinner...when they are in the same house....what if that had been a patient you had forgotten to give life-saving medication too??? (and yes, I'm using your very own logic here...or does that only apply to other people and not yourself?)

Why do I get the feeling, that you are either the irresponsible person, or know them. Why else did you suddenly start posting here.

Now this is just getting silly.

[wagsalot]

I would never save any dog over a child and find it hard to believe that faced with the reality, that any decent human being would. It's got nothing to do with how maternal someone is, or how cute you find children - it's about basic empathy for others. Losing a dog is horrible and sad, but contributing to someone losing their child, which is unbearable, is monstrous no matter how you look at it.

Me either. The thought that someone would save a dog over a child makes me feel physically sick.

[labadore]

Why else would they be on here if it wasnt for their dogs? You just assume that those who expressed sympathy for the man couldnt give a rat's bum about the dog boiling to death in a car. You know, maybe it's just too painful for some people to write about. That's why there is a closed animal cruelty subforum - because some people find it too difficult to cope with.

I understand it could be a sensitive issue for people to write about. However, I was only referring to the posters who had taken the time to express empathy for the guy in this thread without expressing any sympathy for the poor dog. which if this is a forum of dog lovers as you put it, I thought that would be a normal thing to do in a thread like this and have seen this done in many other threads, so why not this one.

I wouldn't have thought that needed to be stated on a forum full of dog lovers but perhaps you like things to be spelled out in detail.

Yes I do and don't think that is unusual for a forum . Just have a look at some other threads where a dog has died tragically due to negligence. Posters have expressed sympathy/condolences for the dog and condemnation for the person that caused the death of the dog due to negligence. In these other threads posters are outraged (and rightly so) and demanding all sorts of punishment (mostly painful) for the negligent person and hardly anyone has "empathy" for the negligent person(s). Negligence is negligence now matter how you want to dress it/sugar coat it. The outcome for the poor dogs is the same, a horrible death

So yeah I do have trouble understanding the amount of "empathy" for the person whose negligence caused this poor dog's death, compared to sympathy expressed for this poor guide dog in relation to other threads where a dog died a horrible death, also due to negligence. I also thought that guide dogs/service dogs were held in high regard in the doggie community for the valuable jobs they do in the community, obviously not on this forum.

[megan_]

This is beyond irresponsible. How can someone just forget that they had a dog n the car? The dog must have died a horrible death. This guy should be sacked.

I agree & it saddens me that people are making excuses for this moron. He knew it was a hot day, he shouldn't have left the dog in the car for 5 minutes. I hope he is sacked.

RIP sweet puppy, you not only lost your life, but a blind person out there has lost a pair of eyes & a loving companion.

He didn't intentionally forget the dog - that is the big difference. If he had said "I'll leave it there for 5 mins" and then never came back that would be different. You are implying that he deliberately chose to leave the dog in a hot car which is a very different scenario.

Last week I got home from agility at 10pm. Opened the gate with my stuff and then remembered Fergus was on the back seat. He has been trained to sit or lie nicely when in the car (with a harness on). I love my dog very much, I am not a heartless moron but I forgot I had him with me for all of 20 seconds. If I didn't normally have him there and I wasn't going home I can imagine that I could forget. My dogs are much loved and my life outside of work revolves around them.

You can forget to close a gate and end up with a dog dying a terrible death. You can forget to give a dog their meds just once and end up with a dog dying a terrible death.

No one is "making excuses" for this person, they are saying that it is a terrible tragedy.

labradore - it is pretty low to try and paint the people on this forum as "not caring about dogs" just because they aren't baying for this guy's blood. People on this forum do real things to help dogs every day.

Edited February 11, 2013 by megan_

[labadore]

This is beyond irresponsible. How can someone just forget that they had a dog n the car? The dog must have died a horrible death. This guy should be sacked.

I agree & it saddens me that people are making excuses for this moron. He knew it was a hot day, he shouldn't have left the dog in the car for 5 minutes. I hope he is sacked.

RIP sweet puppy, you not only lost your life, but a blind person out there has lost a pair of eyes & a loving companion.

He didn't intentionally forget the dog - that is the big difference. If he had said "I'll leave it there for 5 mins" and then never came back that would be different. You are implying that he deliberately chose to leave the dog in a hot car which is a very different scenario.

Last week I got home from agility at 10pm. Opened the gate with my stuff and then remembered Fergus was on the back seat. He has been trained to sit or lie nicely when in the car (with a harness on). I love my dog very much, I am not a heartless moron but I forgot I had him with me for all of 20 seconds. If I didn't normally have him there and I wasn't going home I can imagine that I could forget. My dogs are much loved and my life outside of work revolves around them.

You can forget to close a gate and end up with a dog dying a terrible death. You can forget to give a dog their meds just once and end up with a dog dying a terrible death.

No one is "making excuses" for this person, they are saying that it is a terrible tragedy.

labradore - it is pretty low to try and paint the people on this forum as "not caring about dogs" just because they aren't baying for this guy's blood. People on this forum do real things to help dogs every day.

What I see on this forum is double standards which is not all that unusual to real life . Some people talk the talk and others walk the walk.

In today's society there is always an excuse for some wrongdoing and ducking and diving taking responsibility for their actions. Blame it on this blame it on that - poor thing - we are expected to have empathy and compassion for everyone's failings and bad decisions. People need to take responsibility and be held accountable for their actions and more people to need to make a stand on being outraged at some of the outcomes of people's failings and negligence and not brush it under the carpet by excusing it under the guise of empathy/compassion.

[megan_]

How on earth does empathy equate to brushing something under the carpet? How does it equate to a double standard? How does it equate to ducking responsibility?

[casowner]

How on earth does empathy equate to brushing something under the carpet? How does it equate to a double standard? How does it equate to ducking responsibility?

My life literally revolves around my animals and my kids but if I saw one of my animals putting a child in danger or if ANY child was in danger I would not hesitate to help them.

[labadore]

How on earth does empathy equate to brushing something under the carpet? How does it equate to a double standard? How does it equate to ducking responsibility?

Brushing it under the carpet and ducking responsibility - Because so many of you are either blaming something else i.e. memory lapse, forgetfulness, Forgotten baby syndrome, wrong type of vehicle etc and expecting everyone to have empathy with him when the plain and simple fact is he was negligent in leaving the dog in the car in soaring temperatures to die a horrible and painful death. and he needs to be held accountable for this act of negligence as the outcome of this negligence killed the dog in his care. This was a special dog, a valuable guide dog who had so much potential to do so much good in the community and the loss of this dog to the guide dog association is huge and will set them back both in time and financially.

Double standards as in other threads negligent people who caused a dog's death are crucified and hung out to dry, with little or no empathy or compassion and heaps of outpouring of sympathy and condolences for the poor dead dog, and rightly so I might add.

What makes this case so different?? Why do the majority of posters empathise with the person whose negligent actions caused the death of this dog? It seems that a few of you are relating it to personal experiences of having forgotten your dogs are in the car. I personally don't understand how that can happen. I am always extra vigilant when my dogs or grand kids are in the car, and if I ever needed to transport them during extreme heat (will only ever do it if absolutely necessary) I am always on high alert and always make sure I am prepared (water etc) in case of a breakdown. When you work with service dogs you don't have a choice of when you should transport as it is part of the job to transport in all weather conditions and during the extreme weather conditions, the handlers/carers should be in a heightened state of alert/awareness anyway and should be more responsible and reliable than the general public as part of their job.

I have been a longtime supporter of guide dogs and I think they do a terrific job, but if this guy does not lose his job and they don't implement more rigorous procedures for transporting of their dogs, I will rethink that support for sure as that to me would send a message they don't value their dogs as highly as they should. Lets look at the name of their organisation "Guide Dogs" - they are their whole reason for existing and if any of these wonderful dogs die due to the negligence of their handler/carer, then that handler/carer needs to pay the price of losing their job. In my mind and likeminded others, empathy doesn't come into it.

[raz]

empathy doesn't come into it.

Woah Woah Woah. OK I'm backing out of this thread. That's the most insane thing I have ever seen on this forum.

[labadore]

How on earth does empathy equate to brushing something under the carpet? How does it equate to a double standard? How does it equate to ducking responsibility?

My life literally revolves around my animals and my kids but if I saw one of my animals putting a child in danger or if ANY child was in danger I would not hesitate to help them.

How on earth does your post have anything to do with what Megan is responding to. She responded to one of my posts that had nothing to do with kids vs animals, I haven't brought into that argument, as I have just focussed on the issue of the handler/carer being held accountable and responsible for his negligence causing the death of the poor dog. Please don't take this off topic as that argument has been done to death in this thread. If you all want to argue that point, then as another poster suggested previously, start another topic to discuss that and guaranteed that I won't participate in that one :D

[Brookestar]

He didn't intentionally forget the dog - that is the big difference. If he had said "I'll leave it there for 5 mins" and then never came back that would be different. You are implying that he deliberately chose to leave the dog in a hot car which is a very different scenario.

Last week I got home from agility at 10pm. Opened the gate with my stuff and then remembered Fergus was on the back seat. He has been trained to sit or lie nicely when in the car (with a harness on). I love my dog very much, I am not a heartless moron but I forgot I had him with me for all of 20 seconds. If I didn't normally have him there and I wasn't going home I can imagine that I could forget. My dogs are much loved and my life outside of work revolves around them.

You can forget to close a gate and end up with a dog dying a terrible death. You can forget to give a dog their meds just once and end up with a dog dying a terrible death.

No one is "making excuses" for this person, they are saying that it is a terrible tragedy.

This was a SENIOR instructor. They already have a MASTERS DEGREE in Orientaiton and Mobility Training. They then do a 3 year apprentaship. They then work for at least 10 years, then they can be promoted to senior instructors.

My partner works in child care and regularly transports children from child care centres to preschools (kindergartens). She can't accidently leave chidlren in the car, and have them die. She would be charged with manslaughter if she did. Parents are hardly going to say, it was an accident, we understand. As a professional she is expected to operate at higher standards.

The dog was with another dog. He took them both out for training, standard practice. They work one, while one rests in the car. The vans are kept in FULL shade, with airconditioners going in the back, windows also fully open (in case for some bizzare reason the airconditioner breaks down), the dogs have access to water the whole time. The dogs are in cages, as police dogs are. They are secure in the cages are locked, but also cannot be stolen or hurt by someone else. The trainers work around local streets and keep some level of watch on teh cars. Police dogs have the same sort of thing. As soon as the driver steps out of the car, they MUST open up the back doors. They are not under any circumstances to speak to anyone or do anything else, until they have done that. If they are found to have done that, they will be removed from the dog squad. The welfare of the dogs MUST come first. Once the dog is going to be safe in the car, THEN and ONLY THEN, are they allowed to speak to other officers to find out what is happening and what is wanted.

There is a BIG BIG difference between a pet dog owner accdiently leaving a dog in the car and a SENIOR GUIDE DOG INSTRUCTOR doing so. I know a puppy raiser that did it and while the pup was not injured they immediately removed the puppy and banned them from ever having one again and ALL other programs were also notified. One mistake and they were out. But ANYONE can be a puppy raiser. And puppy raisers are taking dogs out in there day to day lives, much like pet dog owners.

He got out of the car. Opened up the back and let out one dog, and then supposedly forgot the other one. That is what does not make sense. He was looking at the dogs! He had one on lead, did he not notice that two should have been there. This was at the training centre. Even if he supposedly meant to take one in and then go and get the other one, he still has policies he has to follow, and which he has been following for DECADES.

If you used a dog transport company and they accidently left your dog in the car and it died, would you seriously just say, well it was an accident so it doesn't matter??!!

The program is required by law to report it to the RSPCA immediately. It took them 5 days to do so. They have refused to give full details of what happened, instead just saying he forgot? They are trained not to forgot these things and mistakes like this if they happened that often would result in thousands of these dogs dying. Too many unaswered questions. Perhaps he had a phone call saying someone had died, but then WHY was he even answering the phone while working, which he is not allowed to do. My cousin is a Guide Dog Trainer. This is NOT a pet. They were TRAINING the dog, in a JOB situation, and they have legal responsibilities. It was not like they were coming home and heard the phone ringing, the mobile rang or whatever, they were working and were working WITH the DOG. I cannot accept that you just forget about the dog in this situation. If everyone who worked with dogs in a professional capicity accidently forgot about dogs like this, we would have THOUSANDS dying every year.

I'm an accountant by trade. I can't accidently make mistakes on tax returns the way you might. I am legally expected to be at a higher standard. This guy is the most highly trained dog trainer and dog professional. Why should he not be held to higher standards that pet dog owners. And why should he be exempt from the law just because he is a guide dog trainer. Are police allowed to just accidently shoot someone. Are doctors allowed to accidently forgot to give someone CPR. Are nurses allowed to accidently forgot to give patients medications. Professionals have responsibilities while working and he was working at that time. He was also a senior instrutor and hence responsible for training trainee instructors. Senior nurses, have more responsiblities than junior ones, and are expected to make less mistakes. The same is true for any profession. The mistakes it is acceptable for me to make it is not acceptable for my supervisor to make.

You would not accept a vet clinic forgotting to give your dog medication and you would not accept a pet transport company forgetting to take your dog out of the car, put the airconditioner on in the back or whatever, yet those people are in most cases less trained then this guy is.

Nurses can be distraught at forgetting to give patients medication, doesn't mean we just say, oh don't worry about it, the person is just dead because of it, but hey its just a dead person.

Do I make mistakes, yes, but in my job I am expected to double check things to make sure mistakes are not made. The mistakes I might make with my dogs are not ones that are acceptable for some people to make. I might make mistakes of forgetting to give dogs medication, but I'm not going to accept a vet clinic making those mistakes while my dog is being cared for there. This was not a pet dog and he was not just a pet dog owner. He is not allowed to just leave the dog there for five minutes. He is not allowed to just leave the dog there for 5 seconds. His job is to make sure that does not happen, EVER. What you do and what WE MIGHT do as PET DOG owners are not something he is allowed to do. His JOB is to make sure he does not do these things. Leaving a dog in an unventilated care for 5 seconds is a sackable offense for Guide Dog Trainers. Not so for pet dog owners. It might be bad practice for us, but that is all it is, bad practice. For them it is totally unacceptable - even for 5 seconds. In your job you have things that others might make mistakes on, but it is not acceptable for you to do. This is one for him. You cannot compare what you do as a pet dog owner with what he did. The rules are there for a reason, as they are in ALL professions. OHS might be a pain, but the laws are there to protect people from harm. It is not acceptable to just accidently forget to put scaffolding around buildings, to forget to put guards on machines. Workers die and owners are now charged with occupational homicide, as fines are not enough. They have to know that these things are not simply mistakes. This is not just a mistake for this profession. And he was in the position of a professional. For another staff member, for a volunteer maybe, but even then i doubt it. It is not for him in his profession. He was WORKING. They have lunch breaks, they have tea breaks, they get holidays and the like the same as everyone else. He is expected to remain focussed on the job while he is working, the same as we all are. And as one gets more experienced that focus also increases, as do expectations.

[labadore]

empathy doesn't come into it.

Woah Woah Woah. OK I'm backing out of this thread. That's the most insane thing I have ever seen on this forum.

Thanks for giving me a badly needed laugh today with the bolded comment :laugh: . Man I have only been a member for just over 12months and not a very frequent poster, but have read many many posts/threads over the years prior to joining and a longtime, prolific poster like yourself, who has participated in some lively debates, says my comment is the most insane you have ever seen on this forum, please :laugh:

[Dame Aussie]

Great post Brookestar. I completely agree.

[persephone]

THanks for the extra info Brookestar ..from what source is it?

IF it is the case that he was using a training van , and did leave one dog inside ...then yes, that is markedly different to a scenario I had imagined ... where the person may have been an office worker or someone transporting a dog in a sedan ..something they may have not done before, or often.

(I have also been a guide dog trainer )

[raz]

empathy doesn't come into it.

Woah Woah Woah. OK I'm backing out of this thread. That's the most insane thing I have ever seen on this forum.

Thanks for giving me a badly needed laugh today with the bolded comment :laugh: . Man I have only been a member for just over 12months and not a very frequent poster, but have read many many posts/threads over the years prior to joining and a longtime, prolific poster like yourself, who has participated in some lively debates, says my comment is the most insane you have ever seen on this forum, please :laugh:

If empathy had nothing to do with it, as you claimed, you would not have posted to start with. Your empathy obviously lies with the dog, which is fair enough, and you obviously have no empathy for humans - that's fine. But your pointing the finger at people who expressed sympathy for the dog handler and then saying empathy has nothing to do with it Does. Not. Compute.

[labadore]

Brookestar thank you, great post and couldn't agree more

[labadore]

empathy doesn't come into it.

Woah Woah Woah. OK I'm backing out of this thread. That's the most insane thing I have ever seen on this forum.

Thanks for giving me a badly needed laugh today with the bolded comment :laugh: . Man I have only been a member for just over 12months and not a very frequent poster, but have read many many posts/threads over the years prior to joining and a longtime, prolific poster like yourself, who has participated in some lively debates, says my comment is the most insane you have ever seen on this forum, please :laugh:

If empathy had nothing to do with it, as you claimed, you would not have posted to start with. Your empathy obviously lies with the dog, which is fair enough, and you obviously have no empathy for humans - that's fine. But your pointing the finger at people who expressed sympathy for the dog handler and then saying empathy has nothing to do with it Does. Not. Compute.

I thought you were backing out of this thread. :D I think you just like to twist things around - we can argue the point but I won't :D

[megan_]

No one has said it doesn't matter. If people have additional information then they should cite their source - stand behind what they are saying.

Also, if people come with additional facts that change the circumstances, they shouldn't do the whole screaming thing - they have info that other people don't.