How Can You Tell...

[WExtremeG]

Different breeds.

http://www.apbtconformation.com/adbastandard.htm

http://www.ankc.org.au/Breed_Details.aspx?bid=46

I guess this is just one of 'those' that will rage on forever..

I don't understand your comment "Different breeds"

what's there not to understand? They have different breed standards- therefore they are different breeds- irregardless of how they started off.

here, also an extraction from the ANKC standard:

The bull-and-terrier evolved into three of our modern breeds, the Staffordshire Bull

Terrier, the Bull Terrier, and the American Staffordshire Terrier.

'Our' meaning ANKC recognized.

A product of some of

these dogs is the very American breed of Boston Bulldog, or Boston Terrier, as it is

known. These used to be 35-40 lb dogs, and were very similar to the early Am Staff

(or Pit Bull, Bulldog, American Bulldog, Bull-and-Terrier, Yankee Terrier, some of the

names these dogs were known under then), except for the shorter bulldog face and

screw tail.

Note 'early'

By the late 1800s a fighting dog registry was started in America to keep track of the

prized pedigrees and publish the rules for dog fighting organisations in that country.

The United Kennel Club registered the dogs as American Pit Bull Terriers. Sometimes

this was written as American (Pit) Bull, or American Bull Terrier. Mostly they were

known as Bulldogs, or Pit Bulls.

Although it is this dog’s fighting background that is mostly remembered, only a relatively

small number of the dogs were fought. Most of them went on being farmers’ and

general-purpose countrymens’ dogs and still worked stock, penning, guarding and

helping, just as they had done in their earliest days.In the early 1930s a group of fanciers petitioned the American Kennel Club to accept

their dogs into the registry. These dogs were already registered with the United Kennel

Club, but their owners had no interest in dog fighting. They wanted to promote their

breed as family dogs and show dogs. They formed a national breed club and wrote a

standard for the breed.

Hmm...separation

Nose “definitely black”: Before AKC registration, there were registered American Pit

Bull Terriers with red noses. These dogs came from different root stock and had a

different appearance- including liver colouration. The intention here was to prevent

them from entering the AKC breeding pool of American Staffordshire Terriers. The

nose should be black - not red or pink. We now know that it is genetically impossible

for a blue dog to have a black nose, yet there were blue Am Staffs then, as now, and

they were shown and finished championships. The nose should appear darkest charcoal

on dogs with blue diluted colouration. Forgiveness can be made for dark charcoal on

this colour, but the darker the better. The nose should still appear as black to the

observer. A dudley nose (flesh coloured) is listed as a fault. For dogs without dilute

colouration the nose must appear as written - definitely black.

ETA- done with this thread - there is always going to be a debate on whether or not they're the same breed (even with different standards), however that was not what the original topic was about.

[korbin13]

Once upon a time...Shiloh Shepherds were GSD's too- http://www.shilohshepherds.info/issrShilohShepherdsCoatColor.pdf would you say they were the same today?

http://www.riverwindshilohs.com/6.html

As someone who knows nothing about GSD, yes I would. And if BSL were ever to include GSD's again, I would think that the Shiloh Shepherd would be picked up by the local ranger and treated as a GSD. Would I be incorrect?

[cruzzi]

Different breeds.

http://www.apbtconformation.com/adbastandard.htm

http://www.ankc.org.au/Breed_Details.aspx?bid=46

I guess this is just one of 'those' that will rage on forever..

I don't understand your comment "Different breeds" when in the ANCK breed extension(from the link you posted) it says

By the late 1800s a fighting dog registry was started in America to keep track of the

prized pedigrees and publish the rules for dog fighting organisations in that country.

The United Kennel Club registered the dogs as American Pit Bull Terriers. Sometimes

this was written as American (Pit) Bull, or American Bull Terrier. Mostly they were

known as Bulldogs, or Pit Bulls.

Although it is this dog’s fighting background that is mostly remembered, only a relatively

small number of the dogs were fought. Most of them went on being farmers’ and

general-purpose countrymens’ dogs and still worked stock, penning, guarding and

helping, just as they had done in their earliest days.

In the early 1930s a group of fanciers petitioned the American Kennel Club to accept

their dogs into the registry. These dogs were already registered with the United Kennel

Club, but their owners had no interest in dog fighting. They wanted to promote their

breed as family dogs and show dogs. They formed a national breed club and wrote a

standard for the breed. Much agonizing was done over the proper name for the breed

as the American Kennel Club was not inclined to register them with the same name

as the United Kennel Club. Finally, in 1936, they were accepted with the name

Staffordshire Terrier. This was just a year after the English bull-and-terriers under the

name of Staffordshire Bull Terriers were recognised with the Kennel Club of England.

The standards of both the English and American breeds were written similarly, and

even contained some identical phrases. The authors of both kept in touch with each

other working toward their common goal of acceptance by their kennel clubs. At that

time the dogs described were more similar in size and structure than the breeds

appear today.

In the early 1970s the name of Staffordshire Terrier was changed to American

Staffordshire Terrier when the American Kennel Club recognised the Staffordshire

Bull Terrier breed.

Exactly what those who do know what they are talking about have been saying from the begining.

An object lesson for those who "learn" their facts from this site to listen to the informed & ignore the bluster of the ignorant.

Edited to add.

How can you tell the difference?

Asked to see the registration papers, it's the only way.

Edited February 7, 2013 by cruzzi