Nilif For Puppy

[Jo_C]

We are using the NILIF and Cesar Millan methods with our 11 week old Rhodesian Ridgeback. She is very reluctant to make eye contact for permission and doesn't seem to get the connection to the reward when she does.

I would like some more information about implementing training with a pup, as much of the information I can find seems to be focused on older dogs. Or am I expecting too much?

[persephone]

Permission for what?

[persephone]

Briefly ..eye contact should be a praising/loving thing :) It can also be a control... and can be seen as a threat ..so needs to be taught .

Does your pup enjoy eye contact generally?

IMO, any eye contact deserves a treat/praise :) if a pup doesn't learn to watch .. then any training could be tricky!

This baby is learning ... and has an attention span of a gnat !

Does she watch you when you feed her?

If so .. have her look at you, and feed her little bits at a time ..when she looks, she gets food .... ;)

[Jo_C]

She is slowly getting the hang of looking at me for food using a single treat in my hand to reward for eye contact. I am finding it difficult to attract her attention for anything else including coming when called or even for her to sit before we open the door for her. She does look to the other dog more frequently to see what he does. I am sure she only sits before her meal because the older dog does!

[megan_]

She's still very young. These things take time. What Caesar Milan methods are you using? Some are very forceful and would make a shy dog not want to look at you...

[Kavik]

Why do you want to use Cesar Milan techniques?

[Jo_C]

We are maintaining boundaries and trying to use non-verbal cues. We also have two children who say her name and No several hundred times a day. It is not that she is badly behaved or aggressive so touches are not really necessary. The other dog is quite dominant (we inherited him about 7 months ago) and needs very strong limitations.

[Kavik]

We are maintaining boundaries and trying to use non-verbal cues. We also have two children who say her name and No several hundred times a day. It is not that she is badly behaved or aggressive so touches are not really necessary. The other dog is quite dominant (we inherited him about 7 months ago) and needs very strong limitations.

What is it about Cesar's methods that you like and which ones do you employ? I think there are better ways to train a dog (and especially a puppy!). Why are your children telling her No several hundred times a day?

For getting eye contact you can start with rewarding any looking at you and then narrow it to giving eye contact, getting excited helps too.

What rewards are you using? What are her favourite things? Food? Toys? Ball? Tug?

Edited February 3, 2013 by Kavik

[Weasels]

If the pup is having trouble connecting the action with the reward look into clicker training.

[persephone]

Puppies have NO idea what 'no' means..in fact ,if she is doing something puppyish like chewing/chasing ..and people are throwing "No's" at her ..then 'NO" means just what she is doing at that point in time !!!

if she is looking to the older dog - which is how pups learn ... there is a possibility she may copy some of his behaviours. You say he is 'dominant' In which way/s? What does he do to need extra limitations?

:) your kids (and you) might enjoy this booklet ..It is fantastic for helping kids understand how a dog is thinking ! :D

LINK

Your dogs may BOTH benefit from this training exercise too :) It works with all ages ...

LINK

Edited February 3, 2013 by persephone

[Erny]

Implement the "Triangle of Temptation" meal-time program. It's a "sticky" at the top of this training forum. This will teach your dog eye-contact/focus :).

[sheena]

We are maintaining boundaries and trying to use non-verbal cues. We also have two children who say her name and No several hundred times a day. It is not that she is badly behaved or aggressive so touches are not really necessary. The other dog is quite dominant (we inherited him about 7 months ago) and needs very strong limitations.

Not real sure why you would choose Milan methods of training. I havn't seen much of his that I would be inclined to use. Why would you teach non-verbal cues. so when your puppy sits & waits for his bowl to be put down, how do you release him if you hve no verbal cue Also, what are you doing when you say you are "maintaining boundaries". I agree that saying "no" to a puppy a thousand times a day, could mean anything to the pup. You normally put a cue word on a behaviour after the pup learns the behaviour. EG. when teaching it to sit, you shape the behviour first then put the cue word "sit" to it. I would recommend to anyone with a new pup, that they get into "clicker training". Also there are some great books & DVD's around for puppies..."the Focused Puppy" is great. All of them use "positive" training methods only.

[Red Fox]

We are using the NILIF and Cesar Millan methods with our 11 week old Rhodesian Ridgeback. She is very reluctant to make eye contact for permission and doesn't seem to get the connection to the reward when she does.

I would like some more information about implementing training with a pup, as much of the information I can find seems to be focused on older dogs. Or am I expecting too much?

Cesar Millan is more about dog psychology then dog training.

Your pup is only 11 weeks old, I'm presuming you have only had her for 3 weeks max?

Spend some time bonding with her first, teach her basic boundaries - toilet training, crate training, basic manners etc, be kind and patient. Obedience can come later and will do easily if you invest time establishing good basic foundations which will take time.

Teaching eye contact is not difficult but you need to have some sort of communication system in place first, or else she wont understand what you want.

Have you tried clicker training? If done properly it's very clear for the pup and she will learn quickly.

This book is a great guide for establishing the basics with a young pup: The Focussed Puppy http://www.dogwise.c...s.cfm?ID=DEG966

Hope that helps

ETA these links may be useful for you http://www.shirleychong.com/keepers/archives/eyes.txt

http://www.shirleychong.com/keepers/start.html

Edited February 3, 2013 by SecretKei

[Nekhbet]

you have to bond with the dog first. Make a sound, as soon as it looks give it a reward. Repeat this a hundred times and make a fuss over the dog every time as well as give the reward. Bingo bango dog learns that attention pays off without having to put a command to it which makes it a 'sometimes' behavior instead of a base line standard of behavior all the time.

No means nothing to a puppy. Grumbling and telling off is all well and good but achieves little unless you immediately show the dog the desired alternative and reward it for that. Don't leave them hanging and don't give them dead air, or they do the unwanted behaviour anyway and you're the one left escalating.

NILIF does not mean being that harsh, nor am I saying be a treat dispenser. Be fair and worth working for, just like a good boss at your own work. You want to work, they motivate you and reward you at the end for your efforts, give you constructive criticism. Conversely how hard would you work for a boss that offered minimum wage, rarely told you you're doing right and is quick to point out everything you're doing wrong.

Edited February 3, 2013 by Nekhbet

[Jo_C]

Thanks for all the advice.

I have tried the Triangle of Temptation once, but she protested at the tie out so much that she hurt herself so I bailed

Nekhbet, I think the NILIF program is good, it is not about being harsh. I also do not believe that the CM methods are harsh. We are very calm and consistent with her. It is as much as about training the children as the puppy in many instances.

I am trying to implement methods that will see her seeking connection with us.

[Staff'n'Toller]

I think, what people are trying to impart to you, is that it's doubtful CM methods will produce a dog who wants to connect with you. :)

CM is a self taught *trainer* (I use the term very lightly). He has created a specialty for himself working with dangerous dogs and dogs that have severe and sometimes not-so-severe behaviour problems.

Your puppy is a clean slate, thankfully :) seek out a reward based trainer. Try Canine Behavioural School if they are near you.

[Erny]

Your puppy is a clean slate, thankfully :) seek out a reward based trainer.

*Cough* ..... Doesn't have to be a "reward based trainer". Can just as well be a trainer who understands (and sometimes uses, when appropriate) all quadrants of learning but chooses the best for a pup, which is generally speaking, positive reinforcement and negative punishment, calibered to accord to the pup in question.

Edited for grammar

Edited February 3, 2013 by Erny

[Steve K9Pro]

We are using the NILIF and Cesar Millan methods with our 11 week old Rhodesian Ridgeback. She is very reluctant to make eye contact for permission and doesn't seem to get the connection to the reward when she does.

I would like some more information about implementing training with a pup, as much of the information I can find seems to be focused on older dogs. Or am I expecting too much?

K9: Hi Jo, sorry just got your PM.

Some dogs (& this can be more prevalent in certain breeds) are avoidant of eye contact, they can see it as either challenging you or you challenging them.

My TOT program can certainly help with this, if your pup is getting to excited for the food and bouncing at the end of the leash, remember that if you don't tackle this now, a grown RR will not be nice to walk on the leash if he doesn't learn early to respect the leash and not just become opposing to leash tension.

Perhaps fit a harness to him and have a helper hold and calm him when the food comes out, keep in mind that this will be teaching self control, and what you have reported is that your dog cannot self control.

The TOT will give you a plan to teach this each time you feed your dog that will help with the eye contact, self control and relationship.

If you don't think it is for you, you could also go to a hand feed regime, so choose what you would be feeding for the day in the morning and separate that into 3 - 5 bags, then you will have those opportunities to play with your dog and pay for interaction with food.

I wrote a program a few years ago called the Behavioural Interrupter, it is a free down load on our site. It is here...

[Jo_C]

Thank you Steve.

The Behavioural Interrupter looks like the sort of thing we can use. I appreciate everyone's enthusiasm to share their points of view.

[Nekhbet]

there is no reason why CMs methods wont create a dog that wont connect with you, it depends what you do. CM is not based only on punishment I think people forget that and just focus on one part.

I never said NILIF is harsh at all. I said it has to be balanced though, don't tip things too far one way or another.

Your puppy is a clean slate, thankfully :) seek out a reward based trainer.

I'll say it for you Erny, that's a load of shite. Find a trainer with experience, balance and a smart head on their shoulders that produces a happy puppy that will work for you. There are plenty of reward based trainers who can ruin a dog out there, trust me.